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wuestenfux wrote:
BA has Honor Guard with four special weapons and they can get jump packs.
In the fifth edition I ran a DoA army usually led by two Librarians each of which leading a HG.
Two shock and Awe units with fnp.

Right, but HG also have access to a whole bunch of other stuff that assault 'devastators' wouldn't as well as limited squad size and occupying a whole different FOC slot. The

Bull0 wrote: If you want jump packing, shooty troops... I think there are probably better armies for that, BA is about assault, baby

BA being about assault is actually something debated quite frequently on the B&C BA sub-forum and plenty of players, often the older ones, view BA as being more about maneuverability and close range effectiveness rather than assault. Assault is a part of their identity, but not the be all and end all. Certainly with the nerfs to assault that 6th introduced and 7th perpetuated.we only have a handful of units that can actually perform the role of dedicated assault unit (DC, Furiosos, Meph).

wrote: We already get pistols that do all of that, when you're deep striking / jump packing the range is OK and it stops you compromising on the assault punch too much.

Ok, forget the term 'assault devastator' and think 'jump devastator' or 'jump support squad', they would have a specific role as mid-close range fire support focussing on armour, heavy infantry or reguar infantry depending on your load out. There's no way such a unit should be ending up in assault by choice

Honestly, I and others don't rate our pistol versions of special/assault weapons, they're generally far more expensive than they're worth and their range can be an issue. When you've got 3" melta range you might as well stick a meltabomb on the target.

wrote: You wouldn't want to dump plasma guns on assault units, since they're rapid fire.

Hence giving them relentless, could even say squad members without a special weapon have a bolter. Bolters + jump packs + relentless work well enough on DC. On regular marines you could have a very useful, mobile fire support unit.

I could really get behind a very mobile heavy weapons platform like that ... JP Devs would be very unique and very useful ... Other factions would cry foul even though SW have pups to ride, Nilla marines have doctrines, BA get ... a fast rhino chassis. I actually kinda like the idea of JP Devs.

BA get assault squads as troops. All they need is a price drop and they are fine. Fast moving obsec rhinos are also awesome.

I imagine mostly price drops and gear re-imagining with a formation and a detachment. Which is fine really, BA just need slight tweaks to become viable again. Currently they are priced way to elite for what you get.

 Red Corsair wrote:
BA get assault squads as troops. All they need is a price drop and they are fine. Fast moving obsec rhinos are also awesome.

I imagine mostly price drops and gear re-imagining with a formation and a detachment. Which is fine really, BA just need slight tweaks to become viable again. Currently they are priced way to elite for what you get.

Currently, as it stands a DoA army will fall apart at a certain point in the game.
The army as such is too point intense. We can hope they will fix it in some way.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
BA get assault squads as troops. All they need is a price drop and they are fine. Fast moving obsec rhinos are also awesome.

I imagine mostly price drops and gear re-imagining with a formation and a detachment. Which is fine really, BA just need slight tweaks to become viable again. Currently they are priced way to elite for what you get.

Currently, as it stands a DoA army will fall apart at a certain point in the game.
The army as such is too point intense. We can hope they will fix it in some way.

Which is exactly what I said. Drop their points from 18 to 15 and fix some of their crappier gear and presto. Nobody is forcing BA players to use DoA each game btw, or to use it entirely. A pair of tacs in fast rhinos is a PITA in objective games like maelstrom.

I've never seen the sense in building your army around one gimmick like DoA. It's a nice trick for one or two units but if you make it your main event, you're routinely going to fail in match ups good at countering it, etc.

And no, I don't want a 4 plasma gun tactical squad with relentless and jump packs. If you want to light people up at close range stick a tactical squad with two plasma guns and a plasma pistol in a Rhino, it's fine. If the "older players" you know want a new unit inventing that flies around shooting stuff, fair play to them, but I'd rather they continue to be the close-to-codex Marine army with some nice toys for assault they've always been. Far too many flying pipe organs, wolf-possessed dreadnoughts and other bs these days

Personally, I find this train of thought hilarious. Every other codex thread people are chomping at the bit for "new" stuff. This thread there is a solid core of people who actively don't want anything new.

You make a good point, there. I guess I've lost hope that GW will deliver anything new that isn't Mephiston riding a vampire bat or whatever.

I don't want that proposed squad and neither do the older players.

The point about that group (and it's not exclusively them) was they add the perspective that Blood Angels haven't historically been an assault army, they've been a fast, maneuverable army that has been able to get close quickly and in 5th the Furious Charge bonus meant they were a very good dedicated assault force. The salient point being that destructive close combat ability drifts in and out of the BA make-up and has never been the totality of their identity and play style. It's perfectly possible that the new 'dex would stray further away form melee specialisation.

Now, I proposed the unit I did (with more options than just the plasma guns) on the basis that GW won't give us any special rules to mitigate the FC/FNP changes and general assault nerfs that have happened over the last couple of editions. If that scenario occurs, but we keep the speed and maneuverability of the BA, along with a plethora of med-short range ranged weapons sported by our workhorse units (AssCan Baals, Fragiosos, Multimelta attack bikes) then there needs to be some sort of devastator-ish infantry unit that can keep up.

If they do fix us up with ways of negating the general melee nerfs, then such a mobile fire support unit won't be so necessary.

No problem having something new as long as it's the right thing - and there is a genuine gap in the army list for it to slot into.

I'd be interested to know what units in the current codex people think are redundant - which things do you just never use ?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/10/blood-angelss-tidbit.html

OMG, look at those rumours:

No new model, but you will get:

DLC1: Dataslate Tycho. $20

DLC2: Dataslate Death Company Tycho $25.

I really wish those guys learned sarcasm.

 sockwithaticket wrote:
I don't want that proposed squad

Didn't say you did

 sockwithaticket wrote:
The point... was they add the perspective that Blood Angels haven't historically been an assault army, they've been a fast, maneuverable army that has been able to get close quickly and in 5th the Furious Charge bonus meant they were a very good dedicated assault force. The salient point being that destructive close combat ability drifts in and out of the BA make-up and has never been the totality of their identity and play style.

Didn't say it was the "totality of their identity and playstyle" but every unique unit they've got and have ever had is an assault unit, the effectiveness thereof is only relevant if "The units you take to tournaments" means more about the design and themes of the army than the design and themes of the army

 sockwithaticket wrote:
It's perfectly possible that the new 'dex would stray further away form melee specialisation.

Obviously, but it doesn't seem likely since what with assault marines for troops and dedicated assault dreadnoughts assault is pretty much their niche, and there are other marine armies that do shooting better

 sockwithaticket wrote:
(I proposed they add my mobile fire support unit because assaults aren't so great in the current edition but they might give BA some rules to help with assaults)

No argument here

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I could really get behind a very mobile heavy weapons platform like that ... JP Devs would be very unique and very useful ... Other factions would cry foul even though SW have pups to ride, Nilla marines have doctrines, BA get ... a fast rhino chassis. I actually kinda like the idea of JP Devs.

Don't play BA myself, but i could see the veterans or their sternguard equivalents fitting in this slot nicely, as far as fluff goes.
Or just give all PA units the ability to take jump packs. =]

Kangodo wrote:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/10/blood-angelss-tidbit.html

OMG, look at those rumours:

No new model, but you will get:

DLC1: Dataslate Tycho. $20

DLC2: Dataslate Death Company Tycho $25.

I really wish those guys learned sarcasm.

I don't know if I should feel offended... my joke about the Jump Devastators was equally as ridiculous and as likely and yet I didn't get cited as a rumormonger. At least I can link to this thread now every time someone posts a rumor from BOLS and is sure about its veracity.

 warboss wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/10/blood-angelss-tidbit.html

OMG, look at those rumours:

No new model, but you will get:

DLC1: Dataslate Tycho. $20

DLC2: Dataslate Death Company Tycho $25.

I really wish those guys learned sarcasm.

I don't know if I should feel offended... my joke about the Jump Devastators was equally as ridiculous and as likely and yet I didn't get cited as a rumormonger. At least I can link to this thread now every time someone posts a rumor from BOLS and is sure about its veracity.

It was posted on natfka first, then i guess someone from BoLS didnt read the comment section before passing it off as a rumor. Lawl.

 sockwithaticket wrote:

BA being about assault is actually something debated quite frequently on the B&C BA sub-forum and plenty of players, often the older ones, view BA as being more about maneuverability and close range effectiveness rather than assault. Assault is a part of their identity, but not the be all and end all. (DC, Furiosos, Meph).

The problem with that line of thought, is that all Space Marines are supposed to be the masters of "maneuverability and close range effectiveness." That's what Marines do and why their assistance in battle is called for. What sets Blood Angels apart, other than their curse, is their specialization in assault.

Neronoxx wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
I could really get behind a very mobile heavy weapons platform like that ... JP Devs would be very unique and very useful ... Other factions would cry foul even though SW have pups to ride, Nilla marines have doctrines, BA get ... a fast rhino chassis. I actually kinda like the idea of JP Devs.

Don't play BA myself, but i could see the veterans or their sternguard equivalents fitting in this slot nicely, as far as fluff goes.
Or just give all PA units the ability to take jump packs. =]

They're a codex chapter for the most part so it doesn't really make a lot of sense in the fluff..since such a thing doesn't exist? It's just a SM version of a Raptor squad, which is fine I suppose. Veterans deploy as Assault troops or Terminators in the fluff not as some strange heavy weapon jump unit.

Of course they could rewrite the fluff as they did with Centurions to hamfist them into the Astartes.. I know it's easy to say Blood Angels are all about assault, but they aren't. They have *more* assault elements yes and more jump packs, but most of the companies are almost the exact same as the Ultramarines. Comparing them to Space Wolves is a false equivalency because the Space Wolves do not follow the codex astartes.

 Kirasu wrote:


They're a codex chapter for the most part

This.

Wouldn't be surprised if the current GW team even moves Assault Marines back to Fast Attack to streamline it in line with recent books. Ward's creativity and ideas are being rapidly purged from the books it seems.

Only Jervis "Play it My Way" Johnson's ideas will remain eventually!

Ward wasn't the one who made Assault marines troops. That was in the 4th edition PDF codex as well. And Jervis wrote that one.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 sockwithaticket wrote:

BA being about assault is actually something debated quite frequently on the B&C BA sub-forum and plenty of players, often the older ones, view BA as being more about maneuverability and close range effectiveness rather than assault. Assault is a part of their identity, but not the be all and end all. (DC, Furiosos, Meph).

The problem with that line of thought, is that all Space Marines are supposed to be the masters of "maneuverability and close range effectiveness." That's what Marines do and why their assistance in battle is called for. What sets Blood Angels apart, other than their curse, is their specialization in assault.

Exactly this.

 Kirasu wrote:
Only Jervis "Play it My Way" Johnson's ideas will remain eventually!

Poppycock. That's why we have unbound and random... I mean "cinematic"... chart rolls to liven up the game with. You just need to forge the narrative more!

How about Devastators with Tankhunter that can take heavy weapons and no jump packs, or special weapons and Jump packs ?

They can be fielded in Codex Astartes fashion, or strap on a jump pack and lighter weapon, when the situation calls for it.

 sockwithaticket wrote:
I don't want that proposed squad and neither do the older players.

The point about that group (and it's not exclusively them) was they add the perspective that Blood Angels haven't historically been an assault army, they've been a fast, maneuverable army that has been able to get close quickly and in 5th the Furious Charge bonus meant they were a very good dedicated assault force. The salient point being that destructive close combat ability drifts in and out of the BA make-up and has never been the totality of their identity and play style. It's perfectly possible that the new 'dex would stray further away form melee specialisation.

Now, I proposed the unit I did (with more options than just the plasma guns) on the basis that GW won't give us any special rules to mitigate the FC/FNP changes and general assault nerfs that have happened over the last couple of editions. If that scenario occurs, but we keep the speed and maneuverability of the BA, along with a plethora of med-short range ranged weapons sported by our workhorse units (AssCan Baals, Fragiosos, Multimelta attack bikes) then there needs to be some sort of devastator-ish infantry unit that can keep up.

If they do fix us up with ways of negating the general melee nerfs, then such a mobile fire support unit won't be so necessary.

It was ridiculous of me bringing in heavy weapons with tactical squads, I seemed to roll 1's and move closer to the enemy negating my chance to fire them.

The close quarter fighting is what drew me to the chapter, tip of the spear, perfect for securing a landing zone on a planet after having been dropped from orbit, in amongst the enemy. I was able to lead the assault on several campaigns when assaulting hostile planets.

Sockwithaticket, excellent knowledge of the chapter! Exalted!

 th3maninblak wrote:
It was posted on natfka first, then i guess someone from BoLS didnt read the comment section before passing it off as a rumor. Lawl.

Maybe someone should remove it from Rumor Roundup on the first post of this thread so people don't keep reporting it as a rumor.

 adamsouza wrote:
How about Devastators with Tankhunter that can take heavy weapons and no jump packs, or special weapons and Jump packs ?

They can be fielded in Codex Astartes fashion, or strap on a jump pack and lighter weapon, when the situation calls for it.

I like the idea for the jump packs a lot, but Imperial Fists already do the Devestator - Tank Hunter thing.

Man that last Ward codex really planted a foul seed IMO. BA are a codex chapter with a jump honor guard and a death company. The last codex gave us flying wizard and blender naughts along with golden mummy sarcophagus angles and the chibihawk and now everyone thinks they need more bizarre stuff ham-fisted in.

Personally I wish they could undo the libby dread and sanguinary guard, I mean why on earth are BA the first only and last chapter to ever have a libby buried in a dreadnaught sarcophagus? How are sanguinary guard that much different from honor guard?

Yea lets add jump pack centurions to the game though, thats exactly what BA need, MORE fat in an overweight codex. Fine but don't cry when scout bikes/attack bikes/sternguard are taken out. There is a definitely a limit to how much they can cram in before stuff needs to start coming out.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Man that last Ward codex really planted a foul seed IMO. BA are a codex chapter with a jump honor guard and a death company. The last codex gave us flying wizard and blender naughts along with golden mummy sarcophagus angles and the chibihawk and now everyone thinks they need more bizarre stuff ham-fisted in.

Personally I wish they could undo the libby dread and sanguinary guard, I mean why on earth are BA the first only and last chapter to ever have a libby buried in a dreadnaught sarcophagus? How are sanguinary guard that much different from honor guard?

Yea lets add jump pack centurions to the game though, thats exactly what BA need, MORE fat in an overweight codex. Fine but don't cry when scout bikes/attack bikes/sternguard are taken out. There is a definitely a limit to how much they can cram in before stuff needs to start coming out.

Totally agree with this. They do NOT need to go any more wardien than they already did. Though, I must admit, I do like the sang guard. Librarian dreads sort of filled a gap in the fluff, though all chapters should have them really due to said fluff gap (what happens to a librarian that 'can' be saved by interring into a dread) though they would be super rare. Otherwise they are codex compliant. Really their assault marines shouldn't be troops, they should be fast attack, blood angels DO NOT deploy whole companies as assault marines - well they do now - but never did before.

They should be exactly the same as the space marine codex, but have their additional special units. Special rules should then be applied (ala chapter tactics) that allow them to play in a unique way. DOA (as although they don't have more JP troops than your average chapter, they are specialist at it), a more third edition style red thirst but with more compensation for it's drawbacks - such as units that are forced to snapshot due to being forced to move towards the enemy can re-roll failed shots of a 1, maybe assault still after firing heavies and rapid firing.

So do you have solid rumours and sources that ASM are being made FA, or that they'll remove Sanguinary Guard and Furioso Libs?
If not, can we please take this "discussing the BA as a Codex and wishlisting" to another thread before this one gets locked?

I doubt any of the new units introduced in the current codex will be removed... Doesn't make sense either. I'm pretty sure BA will get point reductions to bring them in line with other power armor codices. I'm mostly interested to see what GW will do with the special characters... They could be real game changers.