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Age of Sigmar did provide some cool not- ogres (celestial ogres, maybe?) for Kings of War, though. And you can get the Sigmarite half of the box pretty cheap online. Course, then it costs nearly as much as all that for a box of 5 archers to add to it (usually 45 for the five-man, and then ten more to get a single as bitz so you have two units of three)....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/26 19:58:49
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
AoS has got one new faction (Sigmarines), a bunch of fairly sketchy, as yet undeveloped fluff about the Realms and stuff, a four page rule book, some scenarios in another couple of books containing the fluff, and about 20 model kits including new terrain pieces, the Sigmarines, and the Chaos dudes.
The model kits obviously represent the most major investment since even if a sprue frame mould cost only £10,000 to make, you are looking at £200,000.
£200,000 isn't actually much to a company as large as GW, representing less than 0.2% of annual turnover, but let's say the whole project cost £2,000,000, even that is under 2% of annual turnover.
GW's cost of goods is about 20% of retail price, so deducting the VAT from the £75 price of AoS starter, the cost of manufacturing a unit is £12.50. If they made 100,000 units, it is only £1,250,000 invested in stock.
Overall the whole project so far is similar in size to their redevelopment of their web site. From that rough analysis it can fail and not sink GW, and the big problem would be what else they should do instead if they haven't got anything ready to go yet.
However I think GW are prepared to give AoS two or three years to see how it gets on.
Do a great many people even like the Khornate faction? The Stormcast seem to get the most good and bad press, while it seems lots of people just rolled their eyes at Yet Another Chaos Army (tm). Though I could be wrong, mostly as an outsider looking in that really only knows WHFB.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/26 21:42:22
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
I think a lot of people don't see the khorne faction as a faction, I think a lot of them see it as some nice warriors of chaos models but sadly only khornite ones so they don't even interest every WoC player.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Kilkrazy wrote: Overall the whole project so far is similar in size to their redevelopment of their web site. From that rough analysis it can fail and not sink GW, and the big problem would be what else they should do instead if they haven't got anything ready to go yet.
We don't have any definite answers on how much WHFB was making before, if AoS flops and results in less sales than WHFB it *might* be enough to push GW from profit to loss.
I doubt it'd happen this financial year though, at the very least there still is panic buying of kits by old WHFB players and there's probably enough people buying stuff out of an initial interest in AoS to prop it up.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/27 00:21:03
Kilkrazy wrote: Overall the whole project so far is similar in size to their redevelopment of their web site. From that rough analysis it can fail and not sink GW, and the big problem would be what else they should do instead if they haven't got anything ready to go yet.
We don't have any definite answers on how much WHFB was making before, if AoS flops and results in less sales than WHFB it *might* be enough to push GW from profit to loss.
I doubt it'd happen this financial year though, at the very least there still is panic buying of kits by old WHFB players and there's probably enough people buying stuff out of an initial interest in AoS to prop it up.
I would be shocked if profits didn't fall after what, 3 straight months of no new 40k? I dunno about pushing things into a loss, or about a mad FB buying spree , but of course either is possible. What will really tell us the success or failure of AoS is next year's release cadence. If there are 3 morestraighr months of straight AoS next year, I think we can safely say AoS was a smashing success. If there are no more sigmarite models, probably not so much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/27 04:01:59
It'll probably be a few years before we find out. I would be surprised if next year's release schedule isn't already determined and it'll probably take a few release cycles before GW decide whether AoS is worth pursuing.
Kilkrazy wrote: Overall the whole project so far is similar in size to their redevelopment of their web site. From that rough analysis it can fail and not sink GW, and the big problem would be what else they should do instead if they haven't got anything ready to go yet.
We don't have any definite answers on how much WHFB was making before, if AoS flops and results in less sales than WHFB it *might* be enough to push GW from profit to loss.
I doubt it'd happen this financial year though, at the very least there still is panic buying of kits by old WHFB players and there's probably enough people buying stuff out of an initial interest in AoS to prop it up.
I would be shocked if profits didn't fall after what, 3 straight months of no new 40k? I dunno about pushing things into a loss, or about a mad FB buying spree , but of course either is possible. What will really tell us the success or failure of AoS is next year's release cadence. If there are 3 morestraighr months of straight AoS next year, I think we can safely say AoS was a smashing success. If there are no more sigmarite models, probably not so much.
You can't possibly be saying that the measurement of AoS's success is the cadence of Sigmarine releases... This ISN'T 40k where 50% of the players (edit: Sorry - I mean hobbyists ) are SM. They NEED to release elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.
The longer GW takes to release these races, the bigger the grave they're digging for AoS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/27 08:08:12
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
heartserenade wrote: I really like AoS. It made a lot of WHFB players switch to Kings of War, after all.
Ha!
I know I was already planning on making the switch back in 8th ed, and bought into the KS long before AoS was announced, but AoS was the kick in the pants I needed to build my damn KoW army and sign up for the next local tourney.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
You can't possibly be saying that the measurement of AoS's success is the cadence of Sigmarine releases... This ISN'T 40k where 50% of the players (edit: Sorry - I mean hobbyists ) are SM. They NEED to release elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.
The longer GW takes to release these races, the bigger the grave they're digging for AoS.
Dwarves are coming very soon (a month or two) according to Sad Panda. It'll be very interesting to see the interest in those since it'll be the first real update of one of the old factions.
Mymearan wrote: Dwarves are coming very soon (a month or two) according to Sad Panda. It'll be very interesting to see the interest in those since it'll be the first real update of one of the old factions.
If it is just a battletome I think it will piss a lot of people off and too many people who have been waiting around for their army to get redone will loose all interest, assuming that after Lizardmen and Dwarves their faction won't get anything worth waiting for.
If they get new slayers with the fire beards or something then that might just spark a lot of interest and reassure those people who are worried their faction won't get a real update. But, it would still take a few units, not 1 to really reassure people.
I think if there are a few new units people will be really excited, and looking especially at how different the new aesthetic is compared to the old to see how different their units will be when they get redone.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
I was never a Fantasy player so Sigmar hasn't affected me in any way. In my area I've never seen in played or even seen one of the new models outside of a GW.
If Sigmar is failing (which I suspect it is) then I do hope it makes GW realise that they need to be more than a "model making company" and provide a good game as well for the sake of games I do like playing (40k).
Mymearan wrote: Dwarves are coming very soon (a month or two) according to Sad Panda. It'll be very interesting to see the interest in those since it'll be the first real update of one of the old factions.
If it is just a battletome I think it will piss a lot of people off and too many people who have been waiting around for their army to get redone will loose all interest, assuming that after Lizardmen and Dwarves their faction won't get anything worth waiting for.
If they get new slayers with the fire beards or something then that might just spark a lot of interest and reassure those people who are worried their faction won't get a real update. But, it would still take a few units, not 1 to really reassure people.
I think if there are a few new units people will be really excited, and looking especially at how different the new aesthetic is compared to the old to see how different their units will be when they get redone.
I'd say new units are almost a certainty considering that the only concrete info we have on the new dwarves is the short blurbs about Fire Slayers. my guess is that the models from the latest Dwarf release (2013?) will be repackaged and older ones will be replaced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/27 10:53:01
The Sigmarines have got basically a flying man figure, and a standing man figure, and there are several variation arms for each of those two basic designs to make up the procurators, designators, procrastinators and so on. Then there are five or six (?) special characters.
So really there are not many different models that had to be designed to make an entire Sigmarine army. I think a Fyre Dwarfadin army could be made the same way fairly easily.
Mymearan wrote: I'd say new units are almost a certainty considering that the only concrete info we have on the new dwarves is the short blurbs about Fire Slayers. my guess is that the models from the latest Dwarf release (2013?) will be repackaged and older ones will be replaced.
Many a man has guessed that the old, outdated, models will be updated when an army is due for an update by virtue of them being old, ugly, and don't match the new aesthetic.
Many a man has been brutally disappointed.
Seriously, basic chaos marines are too old and don't match the awesome new look of the chosen, rapots, and yes even the dino bots. The High Elves desperatly needed new spearmen and archers, but instead they got an eagle pulling a chariot.
GW seem to fear that if they release a replacement for a unit without making it a dual kit that makes a new unit they will not get any sales because people will already own the old unit. Which is really dumb since they think that so few people buy to game and everyone buys for the models themselves, someone buying for the models doesn't care if he already owns a box of spearmen if the new spearmen look better he'll buy them.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Mymearan wrote: I'd say new units are almost a certainty considering that the only concrete info we have on the new dwarves is the short blurbs about Fire Slayers. my guess is that the models from the latest Dwarf release (2013?) will be repackaged and older ones will be replaced.
Many a man has guessed that the old, outdated, models will be updated when an army is due for an update by virtue of them being old, ugly, and don't match the new aesthetic.
Many a man has been brutally disappointed.
Seriously, basic chaos marines are too old and don't match the awesome new look of the chosen, rapots, and yes even the dino bots. The High Elves desperatly needed new spearmen and archers, but instead they got an eagle pulling a chariot.
GW seem to fear that if they release a replacement for a unit without making it a dual kit that makes a new unit they will not get any sales because people will already own the old unit. Which is really dumb since they think that so few people buy to game and everyone buys for the models themselves, someone buying for the models doesn't care if he already owns a box of spearmen if the new spearmen look better he'll buy them.
This is especially true (for me) with the HE archers.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
AegisGrimm wrote: Do a great many people even like the Khornate faction? The Stormcast seem to get the most good and bad press, while it seems lots of people just rolled their eyes at Yet Another Chaos Army (tm). Though I could be wrong, mostly as an outsider looking in that really only knows WHFB.
Actually, yes, the Khornate faction provides a way to get more variety in a WE or Daemonkin army.
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AegisGrimm wrote: Do a great many people even like the Khornate faction? The Stormcast seem to get the most good and bad press, while it seems lots of people just rolled their eyes at Yet Another Chaos Army (tm). Though I could be wrong, mostly as an outsider looking in that really only knows WHFB.
For me, the problem with these new Chaos models is that they could have been released at any time during the last 10 years. There is nothing about them that says new faction for a new game.
You would think with Christmas coming up, GW would have a blockbuster release for AOS, if only to give it a shot in the arm, but so far, nothing...
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AegisGrimm wrote: Do a great many people even like the Khornate faction? The Stormcast seem to get the most good and bad press, while it seems lots of people just rolled their eyes at Yet Another Chaos Army (tm). Though I could be wrong, mostly as an outsider looking in that really only knows WHFB.
Actually, yes, the Khornate faction provides a way to get more variety in a WE or Daemonkin army.
I have been led to believe that this seems to be how the Khornate models were intended to function - as they also serve an additional hook to get 40k players into AoS.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
My wife and I liked the AoS boxed set, Then I realized just how 40K they look. Essentially I think it's intended to hook straight into 40K with minimal effort.
Then old factions released with..."gasp" round bases. Its a MIRACLE, so.....round.
Anyhow, ended up....not really liking AoS, and the whole debacle has reduced our collective interest in 40K and GW as a whole. Specialist games.....maybe, if Inquisitor and necromunda come back. Otherwise, I'm just finishing my armies and selling the old ones.
They'd still need a method of arbitrating what's a fair contest and what isn't, if you're not playing a scenario then you still want a fairly even balance of power between the two opposing sides.
Points, being strictly literal, aren't needed, but a method of determining parity is. Otherwise you're just abandoning all pretence of it being a war game and just playing a very shallow and basic RPG.
Sure, as I keep saying I have no great problem with a game design that uses points, even if I'm personally happy enough without them. Fantasy miniature games that use army lists is where I give the game (or more accurately buying into the minis) a miss.
Points plus army lists gives a distinct impression of a much more 'competitive' or 'overly serious' game. It's a fantasy game and the primary reason for it is to sell the models. Army lists get in the way of just getting and playing the models you want or worse making you get models you don't want, points don't. Points give you your game arbitrator for those who want to just play the default type game.
[edit] So going back to the earlier post are you saying that for the XXXpt armies that is not army list compliant you would refuse to play, even though you have points and the other guy may well be happy to talk setup etc given all he wants to do is play with his models. I couldn't work out which way you were going?
"So you want me to play my 450 pts of Space Marines against your 5 Titans? SURE THING! That's gonna be so swell! Especially for me as I watch my army being vaporized on T1!"
Sometimes a swift loss is perfect, you can get down the pub quicker.
They'd still need a method of arbitrating what's a fair contest and what isn't, if you're not playing a scenario then you still want a fairly even balance of power between the two opposing sides.
Points, being strictly literal, aren't needed, but a method of determining parity is. Otherwise you're just abandoning all pretence of it being a war game and just playing a very shallow and basic RPG.
Sure, as I keep saying I have no great problem with a game design that uses points, even if I'm personally happy enough without them. Fantasy miniature games that use army lists is where I give the game (or more accurately buying into the minis) a miss.
Points plus army lists gives a distinct impression of a much more 'competitive' or 'overly serious' game. It's a fantasy game and the primary reason for it is to sell the models. Army lists get in the way of just getting and playing the models you want or worse making you get models you don't want, points don't. Points give you your game arbitrator for those who want to just play the default type game.
[edit] So going back to the earlier post are you saying that for the XXXpt armies that is not army list compliant you would refuse to play, even though you have points and the other guy may well be happy to talk setup etc given all he wants to do is play with his models. I couldn't work out which way you were going?
"So you want me to play my 450 pts of Space Marines against your 5 Titans? SURE THING! That's gonna be so swell! Especially for me as I watch my army being vaporized on T1!"
Sometimes a swift loss is perfect, you can get down the pub quicker.
Then why bother with buying and painting/converting the models to begin with? Skip right on to the pub part
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
This is especially true (for me) with the HE archers.
Spearmen here. Since AoS dropped I'd wondered how difficult it might be to scrape the bows, quivers, sea dragons, seaweed etc. off the Lothern sea guard. I decided it'd be easier to sculpt new hands and legs on the old ones. (Biggest problem is how to alleviate the impression that elves have a torso shaped like an upper-case T.)
Doctadeth wrote:Otherwise, I'm just finishing my armies and selling the old ones.
Keep 'em. Play KoW. Play Dragon Rampant. Play Mayhem. Play Legions of Battle etc. I only started collecting those high elves because of Dragon Rampant, and only started converting those spearmen because I just need one or two units of twelve.
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Since