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I wonder if this change in policy resulted in GW actually doing market research for once.

Boy must that have been a shock.

 agnosto wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Nope. The forums knew full well it was a starter set. The complaint was that a new player would want to join an existing group and play a game of 'Flames of War' when what they had been playing was 'Open Fire!'.

People didn't have such issues back when there were different versions of D&D. I remember going from Basic to Intermediate dungeons.....ahh.....gosh, I'm old.

Look for the fussing over AD&D first and second editions, though... and those two games were pretty danged compatible.

Though the Warhammer/Age of Sigmar split is more akin to the 3.X/4e D&D split - incompatible games that take the system in very different directions.

Which really didn't work out that well for WotC in either the short or the long term.

The Auld Grump

 agnosto wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Nope. The forums knew full well it was a starter set. The complaint was that a new player would want to join an existing group and play a game of 'Flames of War' when what they had been playing was 'Open Fire!'.

People didn't have such issues back when there were different versions of D&D. I remember going from Basic to Intermediate dungeons.....ahh.....gosh, I'm old.

However people usually are not looking for a pickup game of Dungeons & Dragons with some new folks down at the FLGS.

 agnosto wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Nope. The forums knew full well it was a starter set. The complaint was that a new player would want to join an existing group and play a game of 'Flames of War' when what they had been playing was 'Open Fire!'.

People didn't have such issues back when there were different versions of D&D. I remember going from Basic to Intermediate dungeons.....ahh.....gosh, I'm old.

Pffft... the box sets were Basic... then Expert And of course, Advanced, which was the good ol' hardcover rulebooks. Remember when there were only 3 of them, PHB, DMG, and MM? Wow, ancient times.

And eventually they made them a red box, and blue box, and then came the gold box... where everyone was an Immortal (and I think character levels started at 100 or some such) ahhh happy days

With respect to 40k:

I truly don't think there would be the outcry. The game I'm talking about would be a different game based on the a much smaller number of allowed models (nothing ginormous, no superhero unkillable ten thousand year old quasi-deities). It's not like there won't be new players who want big games with big models on big tables, where epic heroes are suitable.

 Talys wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Nope. The forums knew full well it was a starter set. The complaint was that a new player would want to join an existing group and play a game of 'Flames of War' when what they had been playing was 'Open Fire!'.

People didn't have such issues back when there were different versions of D&D. I remember going from Basic to Intermediate dungeons.....ahh.....gosh, I'm old.

Pffft... the box sets were Basic... then Expert And of course, Advanced, which was the good ol' hardcover rulebooks. Remember when there were only 3 of them, PHB, DMG, and MM? Wow, ancient times.

And eventually they made them a red box, and blue box, and then came the gold box... where everyone was an Immortal (and I think character levels started at 100 or some such) ahhh happy days

With respect to 40k:

I truly don't think there would be the outcry. The game I'm talking about would be a different game based on the a much smaller number of allowed models (nothing ginormous, no superhero unkillable ten thousand year old quasi-deities). It's not like there won't be new players who want big games with big models on big tables, where epic heroes are suitable.

Basic.
Expert
Companion
Masters
Immortal

BECMI for the the whole thing.

When I got started, there was D&D - then Greyhawk, then Blackmoor, then Eldritch Wizardy....
I had been playing D&D for a year before Basic Dungeons & Dragons came out, as well as the Monster Manual for AD&D.... It took three years for them to get around to the DMG for AD&D.

There is a reason that I call myself auld.

The Auld Grump - anyone remember System 7 Napoleonics?

Ok. I get it. I used to work in social services and people complained about free food.

@AuldGrump - OMG I totally forgot about Masters (was that the black box?). I don't recall Companion. Hangs head in shame. Mind you, I never played the Basic line, though I owned it -- it was all AD&D for me. 10,000 arcane tables to roll dice on, which is probably why I like 40k

My thought process for a GW game to be highly accessible would support many of the models out of the full 40k line (though not all), but also feature boxes like build+paint or dark vengeance snapfits (split up) on the modelling side; and rules that are "like" the old Basic D&D, in sense that Basic was much less arcane and easier for new people to get into than AD&D was. Just like Basic D&D (originally) wasn't designed to scale as high in terms of levels, had simpler tables, and had a much, much smaller number of magical items and spells, where the focus was more on the roleplaying and less on supernerd mechanics and knowing what strange words like dweomer meant.

Likewise, a smaller scale 40k in my mind would start with kits that are both pocketbook and assembly-friendly, play on a much smaller table, have fewer special rules, fewer rolls to start the game, and a flatter, more predictable (and potentially less powerful) magic system.

I think that ultimately most people who really enjoy 40k like the models, so anyone who has a good time with the little game will ultimately go on to the big game, since the little game won't support the full line of models. Much like, some people eventually moved to AD&D because of supplement compatibility -- bigger treasure tables, more monsters, more game worlds, etc.

Hey, I managed to keep it on topic while discussing something totally off-topic.

 agnosto wrote:
Hell has officially frozen over.

Toronto Maple Leafs have not won The Lord Stanley's Cup yet.

 agnosto wrote:

As for dictating terms. I'd love to see them try with Wal-Mart considering they dictate terms to manufacturers who could sneeze and accidentally create a GW in their pants.

From what I understand, that very thing happened quite a few years ago. WM turned GW out on their ear.

ced1106 wrote:

I find it really strange that companies that product models and/or paints for gaming have made pretty much *NO* effort to help new painters interested in the hobby (specifically an "all in one" paint kit with instructions to specifically paint figures included, and at a decent price). Reaper's "Learn to Paint Kit" is about the only such product I know of, and they're taking *forever* to come out with the second kit. I know Vallejo had two such products, but they're OOP (at the low, low cost of $77). Back in 2003, GW released a "Space Marine Assault" kit for $25. Instructions were pretty sad, but you got 13 models and 7 paints.

Not Fantasy/Sci-Fi, but Warlord/Italieri have several sets of this nature.

Davor wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Hell has officially frozen over.

Toronto Maple Leafs have not won The Lord Stanley's Cup yet.

Eh... they've won it more times than any team other than the Canadiens I think like 13 times.

 Talys wrote:

Davor wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
Hell has officially frozen over.

Toronto Maple Leafs have not won The Lord Stanley's Cup yet.

They've won it more times than any team other than the Canadiens I think like 13 times, eh?

Corrected that for you - you put the 'eh' in the wrong place, eh?

'Eh' roughly translates to 'Make a noise, so I know you're listening. The traditional response is 'Eh'.

'The Maple leafs are gonna play a game in Hell when it freezes over, eh?'

'Eh. Gretsky's still gonna beat 'em, eh?'

'Eh!'

In my area of the world we have 'ayuh', which is an inhaled 'yup'. (I have no idea why or how Maine evolved an inhaled affirmative response. But then I'm a Boston boy.)

Drifting back to topic - the response to this locally has been largely positive. Several have expressed hop that it leads to a simplified beginner or children's game for the setting.

The Auld Grump

I am interested to hear that Canadians do this 'eh' thing as a oart of conversation.

The Japanese also have a social protocol of making little noises and tiny comments to indicate to someone who is speaking to them than they are listening.

This often annoys me with my wife, as I have become socialised into doing this in Japanese or English when she is "rabbit, rabbit, rabbiting" on to me and all I actually want to do is close my ears.

However that would be the path to perdition.

I now return you to your regular topic.

You guys are too funny

That was actually more of an "uh" than the typicaly "ey!" you think of a Canadian finishing a sentence with an "Eh"

Amazingly, we actually do use "Eh's". Coming from Florida originally, I was amazed when I started saying it.

@Auld - in our playgroup, the idea seems pretty positive, in the sense of, "Sure, sounds neat?". The local hobby store seems to think it might be a good idea, which I'm a tiny bit surprised at, seeing as the product will probably pop up at big box stores, and that's the last thing they want to compete with.

I feel you Kilkrazy.

Drives me nuts when my wife is on the phone with her mom, or watching TV, or talking to the other moms from the Japanese school.

Why can't they just feign indifference and nod along like the rest of us Westerners?

I also was not aware until this topic came about that Italeri made 1:56 scale stuff.

 Talys wrote:
The local hobby store seems to think it might be a good idea, which I'm a tiny bit surprised at, seeing as the product will probably pop up at big box stores, and that's the last thing they want to compete with.

I can see the FLGS liking it. It’s a gateway. While there might be some lost sales as vets go pick up these on the cheep, they are probably going to be outweighed by new players looking for new units to add to their lonely starter models. It’s not like the big box is going to have the full line.

I think the worst case for the FLGS is new players getting hooked, and then heading to GW’s webstore for their next fix. If the FLGS doesn’t see any of the new blood, it doesn’t do them any direct good. Although with more people in the hobby, the odds of some of them hitting the local shop does go up.

The cost of the landspeeder makes me giggity.

It lets me build my Ravenwing Landspeeder army on the cheap.

 Talys wrote:
You guys are too funny

That was actually more of an "uh" than the typicaly "ey!" you think of a Canadian finishing a sentence with an "Eh"

Amazingly, we actually do use "Eh's". Coming from Florida originally, I was amazed when I started saying it.

@Auld - in our playgroup, the idea seems pretty positive, in the sense of, "Sure, sounds neat?". The local hobby store seems to think it might be a good idea, which I'm a tiny bit surprised at, seeing as the product will probably pop up at big box stores, and that's the last thing they want to compete with.

Eh, is actually very useful, eh?

And it really is - I use it, and I only visited Canada for about two months, back in the eighties.

It is also rather a polite noise, giving a point for the listener to interject.

***

The other part of the reaction that I am seeing seems to be a variant of 'It's about time!' or even surprise that GW is doing this - folks have gotten unused to GW doing anything outside of their little echo chamber.

Rountree is surprising me - and may yet get me to revise my projected chances for GW's survival.

Had they continued on their course, I would have been surprised to see them last another decade, and would have expected them to sink under the waves in less than half that.

They still have problems, but advertising is a very good step, the little kits is a good step.

Age of Sigmar was anything but a good step. (If it had been an adjunct to Warhammer, then maybe... as s replacement... even the All GW All The Time store is dropping the game from inventory, and is not bothering with the figures for the game. The fact that GW is opening their own store in the area also has them rethinking the All GW strategy....)

And I still don't grok why they replaced White Dwarf with WHV for general circulation - the places that used to carry White Dwarf have dropped Warhammer Visions from the shelves completely. (Except for the above mentioned All GW store, which still carries it each month, then returns it unsold at the end of each month.... I think that they have sold around six copies, and most of those when the magazine was new.)

At this point, I am not sure that they could get White Dwarf back into book and magazine stores, even if they returned to a monthly release schedule.

Speaking of bookstores - the local Books-a-Million! has expressed interest in these little Build & Paint kits - they see them as something that the people that buy the 40K RPGs might be very interested in.

Which seems like a reasonable expectation, to me. (And folks that play Pathfinder or D&D might be interested in any fantasy kits that GW comes out with.)

The Auld Grump - hey, look! A compliment sandwich....

Good point there about figures for the 40K RPGs, or has GW finished their licence with FFG?

No, there was a release anouncement for a (Dark Heresy?) supplement only a week or two ago

If I was GW I would be selling the FFG games in my own shops.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If I was GW I would be selling the FFG games in my own shops.

I'd very much like my books to be sold in GW shops.

But no, they haven't ended the license. They have upcoming and new products with the license.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If I was GW I would be selling the FFG games in my own shops.

I'd very much like my books to be sold in GW shops.

But no, they haven't ended the license. They have upcoming and new products with the license.

Did we ever find out why GW hasn't made some figures specifically to support the FFG games?

Is it because they hate us?

Or because they hate money?

To me, GW seem to have a schizophrenic view of their licensing partners. They eagerly take the fees paid for the RPGs and video games, but they don't seem to want to acknowledge officially that these non-GW published titles exist.

It's like GW have almost non-existent modern marketing skills. Perhaps their marketing people were all hired for attitude.

There's no cross-promotion, no merchandise, no tie-in figures or stuff.

GW use to advertise that stuff in the past, but just had a tight grip on their license. I remember store owners peddling DoW1 and having Blood Raven merch, to the point that I thought the Blood ANGELS codex was a Blood Ravens codex at one point (I was fairly new to the game at that point).

Unless you pay close attention to fluff, they are all Blue Marines, Yellow Marines, Red Marines, Grey Marines, Black Marines, Gold Marynes, and so on.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
To me, GW seem to have a schizophrenic view of their licensing partners. They eagerly take the fees paid for the RPGs and video games, but they don't seem to want to acknowledge officially that these non-GW published titles exist.

It's like GW have almost non-existent modern marketing skills. Perhaps their marketing people were all hired for attitude.

There's no cross-promotion, no merchandise, no tie-in figures or stuff.

In this Age of Rountree, there may well be some! (He seems to be doing a good job of running things at the moment, so who knows, right?)

The warhammer 40th actually had a room where they were showing off the computer titles earlier this year, I was surprised.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
To me, GW seem to have a schizophrenic view of their licensing partners. They eagerly take the fees paid for the RPGs and video games, but they don't seem to want to acknowledge officially that these non-GW published titles exist.

It's like GW have almost non-existent modern marketing skills. Perhaps their marketing people were all hired for attitude.

There's no cross-promotion, no merchandise, no tie-in figures or stuff.

In this Age of Rountree, there may well be some! (He seems to be doing a good job of running things at the moment, so who knows, right?)

Which is why I expect Kirby to fire him at any moment....

The Auld Grump

 Rayvon wrote:

The warhammer 40th actually had a room where they were showing off the computer titles earlier this year, I was surprised.

That to me is a hopeful sign of change.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
To me, GW seem to have a schizophrenic view of their licensing partners. They eagerly take the fees paid for the RPGs and video games, but they don't seem to want to acknowledge officially that these non-GW published titles exist.

It's like GW have almost non-existent modern marketing skills. Perhaps their marketing people were all hired for attitude.

There's no cross-promotion, no merchandise, no tie-in figures or stuff.

In this Age of Rountree, there may well be some! (He seems to be doing a good job of running things at the moment, so who knows, right?)

Which is why I expect Kirby to fire him at any moment....

The Auld Grump

I thought Kirby took his golden parachute and went home, that's why Roundtree is in charge now.