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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
I think the game will be fine, if not great. It's the sticker shock that will scare people away...

That and the dongs.

But there are more boobs. And everyone knows that tabletop nerds only care about 1 thing.

Dongs.

 Wehrkind wrote:
Dongs.

I don't know about you, but that's why I bought it.

Yeah, most people are actually fine with dongs; 50% of the population has them and other 50% has a standing offer to pretty much see one whenever they want (and many times when they don't ).

Tell someone they're paying $45+ for one plastic gaming miniature though and their immediate reaction will be "Whoa, when did GW do a half-off sale?"

Seriously though, sticker shock is going to be a much bigger stifle on this than content. Especially for RoW backers if there's not a good EU distributor and they have to order things in "sell-an-organ" sized lots to not get reamed by shipping costs.

My big fear is with as long as this taken to get together and all the little things added, does the project have enough in the tank for shipping with all the rate increases that have happened in the interim? Or are most of things going far afield already so huge that the increases didn't really impact them that much as I understand smaller packages are worse than ginormous ones.

As far as updates go, I'd love to see one, even a tiny one without the tons of content he's so enarmored with, but I suspect he's pouring energy into getting things out of WGF and over to the printer before CNY rolls around. While the lack of communication sucks and I'd be happy without the extravagant affairs that take so long to post, at the same time if his energy needs to be focused on greasing the wheels to get product moving then I'd prefer he do that. Still, there's a happy medium that could be found there...

I've often wondered about really successful kickstarters if the creators don't put a large percentage of their money into some sort of interest drawing account to make it go a little further.

Not saying Adam is doing this, but it is something that could possibly cover unplanned expenses.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
I've often wondered about really successful kickstarters if the creators don't put a large percentage of their money into some sort of interest drawing account to make it go a little further.

Not saying Adam is doing this, but it is something that could possibly cover unplanned expenses.

Probably not. Those accounts dislike having multiple withdrawals a month, and if you breach that a few times the account gets bumped to a non interest type. And the time frame needed to actually get anything sizable out of it is way to long fora KS. Even if they did try it, the most they would get is a few hundred dollars, maybe a few thousand if lucky.

 RivenSkull wrote:
Even if they did try it, the most they would get is a few hundred dollars, maybe a few thousand if lucky.

Depends on the account and bank but you correct that they usually don't like withdrawals. However if you knew you weren't paying anything off for at least a year, then paid with credit or other financing then $2M can generate upwards of $11K a month to $132K a year, that is a lower interest account. It is all on how you manager it. Most people won't do it because they are already having enough time trying to balance multiple issues, the last thing they need is to carefully manage this aspect to make sure they stay in the interest account. It is more than a few thousand, but in the long run when at a project of this scale it really isn't that huge either.

If you managed to get a 3% annual interest rate and assume that you're going to use 25% of your proceeds for shipping (and thus not needing to withdraw for a while, and in this case far longer than projected) you would get:

$2,049,721 * .9 (KS cut) = $1,844,748.90 * .25 (shipping guesstimate) = $461,187.23

Using a compound interest calculator, at 3% annually for 2 years that would leave $489,273.53 or a profit of $28,086.30 which, while only an additional $5 a backer, is still a decent chunk of money for doing nothing.

So yeah, lesson there is if you're running a KickStarter that goes huge, put your shipping money away in an interest-earning account. Just make sure you can get it all out when you need it...

Shipping will be interesting, as it's a flat rate of $45 (I think, it's been some time now since I pledged..) and the parcels are going to be massive.

Didn't Poots calculate the shipping to be about $400k and that was some time ago now. Surely that money is sitting in a bank account for the time being

EDIT yep it was 1.5 years ago and before PM additions so the cost has only gone up

Creator Kingdom Death on May 24, 2013
@Luke Roberts, we are not advanced enough to schedule delayed shipments. I wish that all 5,410+ of you guys could just come and pick it up. It would save a HUGE hassle and free up around $400,000 for more game dev.
Shipping sucks.

 DaveC wrote:
Didn't Poots calculate the shipping to be about $400k and that was some time ago now. Surely that money is sitting in a bank account for the time being

Or under his mattress.

 Krinsath wrote:
Yeah, most people are actually fine with dongs

Tell someone they're paying $45+ for one plastic gaming miniature though and their immediate reaction will be "Whoa, when did GW do a half-off sale?"

Seriously though, sticker shock is going to be a much bigger stifle on this than content.

My big fear is with as long as this taken to get together and all the little things added, does the project have enough in the tank for shipping with all the rate increases that have happened in the interim?

As far as updates go, I'd love to see one, even a tiny one without the tons of content he's so enarmored with,

but I suspect he's pouring energy into getting things out of WGF and over to the printer before CNY rolls around. While the lack of communication sucks and I'd be happy without the extravagant affairs that take so long to post, at the same time if his energy needs to be focused on greasing the wheels to get product moving then I'd prefer he do that.

Still, there's a happy medium that could be found there...

The dongs are a bit juvenile, but it's part of the game aesthetic, so either you're OK with it, or you're not a customer. Same with the pinups, and nightmare horror. If it's not for you, you're not a customer, so it's not an issue.

Sticker shock should be manageable, as long as the kit quality justifies the price. From what I've seen, the quality is there, and the price isn't unreasonable for a niche kit. I spent $89 for the DFG / WGF Leviathan Crusader, and I don't regret a single penny of it. I consider that kit to be a good value, and I expect similar with the expansions. The real sticker shock is going to be with the Monster base game - that game has bloated dramatically, and the sticker gone up accordingly. It's basically a ton of content that probably needs to be pared back somewhat into a less expensive base game with an expansion, but that can wait for 2nd Edition years down the road.

Shipping will be a challenge, and I certainly hope that KDM is able to get product to backers and retail. Especially with many backers ordering at the Herald (or higher) levels.

A small update just letting us know that he's pushing for CNY would be nice. As the Friday Update was delayed, maybe a SBT this Weds?

I like the mega-Updates, but 2+ months of Update is a lot of stuff to catch up on. This is partly why I like little weeklies - something easier, and more regular. The problem is that Adam is such a perfectionist, it's tough for him to dial back into "draft mode" when he knows it'll be seen by the public.

Hopefully, he can get a something together as he finalizes whatever happens prior to CNY.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If it's not for you, you're not a customer, so it's not an issue.

I think that is a logical fallacy - it could be used to support so many things! "GW customers are used to paying high prices, people who aren't are not customers, so it's not an issue."

I have quite a few local friends who are buying into this game (one via the recent Black Friday opportunity), or who bought into it in the Kickstarter originally. Almost all of them have avoided the pinup extras, or the really over-the-top sexualized monsters. We were just discussing this in-person the other day - some of the sculpts are just incredible (the goat, for instance), and some seem like they were envisioned by a teenager just going through puberty. Most of our gaming group are married, and a number with kids, and there's just a threshold that many aren't necessarily looking to go beyond.

So, the argument that people who might have an issue with some of the (really over the top) sexualization on the models are not customers is not true (from my experience, at least).

JohnHwangDD wrote:Sticker shock should be manageable, as long as the kit quality justifies the price. From what I've seen, the quality is there, and the price isn't unreasonable for a niche kit. I spent $89 for the DFG / WGF Leviathan Crusader, and I don't regret a single penny of it. I consider that kit to be a good value, and I expect similar with the expansions. The real sticker shock is going to be with the Monster base game - that game has bloated dramatically, and the sticker gone up accordingly. It's basically a ton of content that probably needs to be pared back somewhat into a less expensive base game with an expansion, but that can wait for 2nd Edition years down the road.

I agree, it's the base game that is the real sticker shock item, many of the other items are reasonable (except that single 35mm model that he was charging $50 for in plastic ).

JohnHwangDD wrote:I like the mega-Updates, but 2+ months of Update is a lot of stuff to catch up on. This is partly why I like little weeklies - something easier, and more regular. The problem is that Adam is such a perfectionist, it's tough for him to dial back into "draft mode" when he knows it'll be seen by the public.

Hopefully, he can get a something together as he finalizes whatever happens prior to CNY.

Agreed, and hopefully he'll make a quick comment / update. CNY is only a few weeks away, though, so I don't know if there's a chance of finishing before it.

 RiTides wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If it's not for you, you're not a customer, so it's not an issue.

I have quite a few local friends who are buying into this game (one via the recent Black Friday opportunity), or who bought into it in the Kickstarter originally. Almost all of them have avoided the pinup extras, or the really over-the-top sexualized monsters. We were just discussing this in-person the other day - some of the sculpts are just incredible (the goat, for instance), and some seem like they were envisioned by a teenager just going through puberty.

Most of our gaming group are married, and a number with kids, and there's just a threshold that many aren't necessarily looking to go beyond.

So, the argument that people who might have an issue with some of the (really over the top) sexualization on the models are not customers is not true (from my experience, at least).

I think we're basically saying the same thing. I don't mind the pinups at all, nor do I find the monsters "over-the-top sexualized", but I understand people's reluctance to order some of them. If you're avoiding that part of the line, you're not a customer of it, right? If you're choosing to avoid dongs / pinups / whatever, then you're not a customer for those things. I love the look of the Dragon King, and the Spidicules concept. The Lion and Flower Knights are amazing. And I found the Sunstalker and Gorm to be more whimsical than sexual.

As a parent, I'm not so worried about KD:M, because the most "extreme" stuff is kind of silly. It's not like Adam is depicting hardcore penetration like HR Giger's art.

Again, that's going back to my original point of them not being customers for that sort of thing. If we pivot things, I can be a GM customer for Buick, but I don't need to be a customer for GMC, right? I could even find Cadillac garish, or Chevy plebian. But none of that needs to undermine my like for a Buick. If the umbrella has pieces that aren't to my liking, why shouldn't I pick and choose?

@RiTides
Concerning the $50 plastic model, I posted in the other thread that it's a 54mm pinup. Isn't that comparable to other 54mm models?

Is it really 54mm? I had only seen poots say it was "closer" to that (which is odd to say about scale). All other 54mm scale models on their site are clearly marked - but if it did turn out that he somehow neglected to list the scale, the price would make more sense. But from the way he said it I thought he was just counting the decorative base.

@JHDD - I agree, those monsters are awesome (and I like most of them - the crazy goat most of all )

 Sinful Hero wrote:
@RiTides
Concerning the $50 plastic model, I posted in the other thread that it's a 54mm pinup. Isn't that comparable to other 54mm models?

Not really. I'd say that $20-30 is about on the mark when looking at plastics that size. $50 is likely for resin, but, well, that's resin so things are always more expensive.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If it's not for you, you're not a customer, so it's not an issue.

I have quite a few local friends who are buying into this game (one via the recent Black Friday opportunity), or who bought into it in the Kickstarter originally. Almost all of them have avoided the pinup extras, or the really over-the-top sexualized monsters. We were just discussing this in-person the other day - some of the sculpts are just incredible (the goat, for instance), and some seem like they were envisioned by a teenager just going through puberty.

Most of our gaming group are married, and a number with kids, and there's just a threshold that many aren't necessarily looking to go beyond.

So, the argument that people who might have an issue with some of the (really over the top) sexualization on the models are not customers is not true (from my experience, at least).

I think we're basically saying the same thing. I don't mind the pinups at all, nor do I find the monsters "over-the-top sexualized", but I understand people's reluctance to order some of them. If you're avoiding that part of the line, you're not a customer of it, right? If you're choosing to avoid dongs / pinups / whatever, then you're not a customer for those things. I love the look of the Dragon King, and the Spidicules concept. The Lion and Flower Knights are amazing. And I found the Sunstalker and Gorm to be more whimsical than sexual.

As a parent, I'm not so worried about KD:M, because the most "extreme" stuff is kind of silly. It's not like Adam is depicting hardcore penetration like HR Giger's art.

Again, that's going back to my original point of them not being customers for that sort of thing. If we pivot things, I can be a GM customer for Buick, but I don't need to be a customer for GMC, right? I could even find Cadillac garish, or Chevy plebian. But none of that needs to undermine my like for a Buick. If the umbrella has pieces that aren't to my liking, why shouldn't I pick and choose?

Pretty much!

It sure seemed like you were both saying the same thing - but sometimes hairs need to be split!

@RiTides - for whatever reason, the models like the Nightmare Ram and King just don't "work" for me. I don't know why that is. Same with the Tree - technically excellent, but just not to my tastes.

.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
It sure seemed like you were both saying the same thing - but sometimes hairs need to be split!

It's a vigorous and enlivening agreement!

I can't believe you don't like the nightmare ram! I disavow our agreement!

 RiTides wrote:
I can't believe you don't like the nightmare ram! I disavow our agreement!

To hell with the ram, how can you not like THE TREE!?!?!?!?

 RiTides wrote:
Is it really 54mm? I had only seen poots say it was "closer" to that (which is odd to say about scale). All other 54mm scale models on their site are clearly marked - but if it did turn out that he somehow neglected to list the scale, the price would make more sense. But from the way he said it I thought he was just counting the decorative base.

@JHDD - I agree, those monsters are awesome (and I like most of them - the crazy goat most of all )

It's definitely over 50mm- I just assumed 54mm like the other ones. Here's my post from the other thread(apologies again for the poor quality). As you can (barely) see her leg to the upper thigh is as big as a regular Twilight knight.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
May be a bit late now for any interested parties but...

Just opened the Christmas pin-up- it is most definately a 54mm model. Her legs are almost as big as a regular twilight knight!

Here's a poor, blurry excuse for a picture.

Spoiler:

Oh my gosh, it must have been moving really fast

That explains it then, thanks!

 RiTides wrote:
I can't believe you don't like the nightmare ram! I disavow our agreement!

I like it well enough as a technical achievement, just not enough for me to spend more money on this. KD:M is the biggest wargaming / minis boardgame KS pledge I've ever committed, and likely my most expensive entry into any game system. I simply cannot justify any more spend on KD:M until I start getting product in hand and built to play.

Well, Chinese NY is a pretty HUGE event… The entire country pretty much shuts down for an entire month. Although the actual New Year is Feb 19th, this year--factories, businesses and ports all start to shut down about 1-2 weeks prior to the big day.

Due to China's size, topography and transit infrastructure (or lack thereof), usually it takes folks anywhere from a few days up to a week to return to the remote villages and provinces they originated from. Most employees that are from the distant rural towns are gone for 3-4 weeks, which basically grants about half of that time to travel!! More locally sourced workers may be granted less time due to proximity.
(Not to sound too smarty-pants, but it's all info I read about CNY like 8 months ago… Cos I doubted we'd see it 2014)

So, *IF* we're lucky, we may see Poots return to the KS page (and an update!?!?) in the next week or a little later.
I'm not holding my breath, and I'm certainly not taking at face value any promise or heralding of an update.

Fool me once… Shame on you…
Fool me twice… Shame on me…
Fool me three times? Well, I mean, I did just say it was on me, so shame on me…
Fool me four times? Come on, really?

(David Cross has a pretty funny standup bit that gets a bit raunchier than that, but it's pretty much how I feel [minus fingering a religious group as a scapegoat])


Well, I bet we'll see new minis during CNY.
At this point, I'm pretty much over anything in resin.
It'd have to be pretty special (dragon king??) to convince the wallet to open any deeper to Poots.

Am I wearing lipstick?
What?
If I'm getting screwed, I at least want to look pretty!


I just wish Poots was a little more organized with what's been shown. The Green Knight Armor hasn't been shown beyond digital proofing, but it isn't on his radar as something to show off. The Gorm armor being forgotten about (one KS backer has been pleading for it, and that's probably why we saw it on one of those fleeting SBT's).

Another promise forgotten is the notice for locking up the Pledge Manager for good. To sound completely hypocritical, I was on the fence about buying extra DK Armor & Gorm-or kits (see what I did?), but wanted to see how they turned out before throwing that money down the black hole.
Due to the rare weapons living on the leather sprues, it'd be cool to pick up a spare one for beastly survivors. (never on the PM)
Heck, an extra rulebook to read outside of the hobby area. Maybe cut out art and frame? (blaspheme!)

Either way, with me helping out others, I don't know if a box smaller than a refrigerator box will get the goods here. It'll probably take a single USPS truck to deliver this…. I'd say it only cost me $45 in shipping, but a lot of those add-ons were at the increased rates, so there should be at least $500 in shipping funds for my total order alone. $_$

I passed the a warning about the Cthulhu wars lack of packing inside the box (possibly due the factory forgetting) leading to damaged cards to Adam when that first became apparent

(I'm sure he's on top of things, but an extra warning never hurts)

the way he signed himself off in response I got (21st Jan) suggested to me he was out of office/on the road so I would not be at all surprised if he was in china making sure stuff got done on time (and done right)

Done on time before CNY 2015 was going to shut things down anyway?

Yes. They were supposed to have plastic done and to the printing factory for final packaging just in time for CNY to shut everything down. Then in March when things resume, the printing would be done and packed and (hopefully) on the water by the end of May.

Obviously, I'm not holding my breath on that part coming to pass, but that was the plan...

Not sure how legit it is, but someone on the Discussions said:

Update delayed.
From an email Ceetee got from Joe:
"Thanks for the sentiment. Things are intense, on every level, but we're working through it. Adam has a lot going on and will get to the updates when he has time.
Don't fear, it's simply a busy time for us."

Nothing substantial at all.

 Krinsath wrote:
Yes. They were supposed to have plastic done and to the printing factory for final packaging just in time for CNY to shut everything down.

That is exactly where Journey : Wrath of Demons is right now. Ray & team are pushing for print, so they can get product on the water. Journey managed to sneak 15 minutes away to make a little Update on what's happening, and I was so delighted over that little tidbit of news.