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High Elf errata states (for Book of Hoeth):

Any spell cast by the bearer will be cast with
irresistible force on any successful casting roll which is a
double, however it will only be considered a miscast if the roll
includes a double 6.

WoC errata states (for Pandaemonium):

Furthermore, all enemy Wizards
must roll on the Miscast table on any roll of a double (but will
only cast a spell with irresistible force on a roll of double 6).

So how would this work?

Any successful casting roll of the High Elf player that includes a double will be cast with IF, but also force the mage/archmage to roll on the miscast table.

Jin wrote:Any successful casting roll of the High Elf player that includes a double will be cast with IF provided he meets the casting value, but also force the mage/archmage to roll on the miscast table.

Fixed it for ya.

Well...hm. Why do you guys say that? Is there some secret thing you know about that I don't?

The way I read it (those are quotations from the respective books, right?), Pandemonium doesn't "cause a miscast", it forces you to roll on the miscast table. So there's no conflict between it and the Book on this part.

With the IF thing, it seems like they contradict each other, which would normally mean that the current player's turn would dictate which item takes precedence (on HE turns, all doubles are IF and two 6's forces a roll, and on WoC turns, doubles force a roll, and two 6's are IF).

But I feel like I'm missing something.

Warpsolution wrote:With the IF thing, it seems like they contradict each other, which would normally mean that the current player's turn would dictate which item takes precedence (on HE turns, all doubles are IF and two 6's forces a roll, and on WoC turns, doubles force a roll, and two 6's are IF).

The flaw in this logic is that the HE player will never cast during the WoC players turn.

With the IF thing, it seems like they contradict each other, which would normally mean that the current player's turn would dictate which item takes precedence (on HE turns, all doubles are IF and two 6's forces a roll, and on WoC turns, doubles force a roll, and two 6's are IF).

I myself am confused by what you said here. Are you suggesting that on the High Elf players turn (with Pandaemonium in effect) that if he rolls a double then he gets IF and must roll on the miscast because "there is no conflict with the book on this part"?

The high elf players turn is the only one that matters. The HE cannot use the book on the WoC players turn, so that becomes irrelevant. Any double rolled during the WoC magic phase with Pandaemonium in play means a miscast.

The other way of interpreting what you have said would be that the High Elf player could completely ignore the Pandaemonium because his item "takes precedence". If that was the case then the Ring of Hotek would also not work on the HE. I understand why you might interpret it this way based off the parenthesis in both rules, but this would seem highly advantageous to the HE army, Teclis in particular.

I understand the confusion. I don't quite know what to make of it, either. Sorry for not clarifying that point.

Lehnsherr, your first guess at my meaning is basically right; the Book says 6's are IF/miscasts, Pandemonium says any doubles force a roll, and 6's are IF/miscasts. So the two rules don't contradict each other here.

But the Book says any doubles are IF, while Pandemonium says they are not. So which has precedence?

This wouldn't be a problem if Pandemonium said that you roll on the table on any double, but that IF is achieved as normal, or something like that. Does it? Otherwise, it specifically says that you can't get IF on any double except a 6, which contradicts the Book's ability, and vise versa.

Does that make any more sense? Could we get some quotes in here?

Ah ok. Then there isn't any specific ruling to how these two items interact.

Neither rule is more specific than the other. The Book allows the double to function as IF. Pandaemonium then makes that into a miscast. I *think* both rules were written with normal spell casting situations in mind, and they didn't take into account the wording on this very specific case.

the descriptions are copy/pasted from the respective errata. I dont have the army books in front of me though.

Thanks for the replies so far

Hmm...yeah, I think they meant to say something like:

"Doubles force you to roll on the miscast table, though irresistible force is only gained as normal"

Which would mean the Book and Pandemonium would get along fine (Unless, of course, Pandemonium was intended to actually/technically cause a miscast, rather than a roll on the table, in which case, it's the same issue with the other half of the items' rules).

So...I'd suggest...a roll-off?

I suspect they need to re-errata this one.

I think the intent of the last bit of wording on Pandemonium comes from the fact that IF's and 'Miscasts' are intertwined in 8th Edition (missed this wording my first read-through). I suspect they failed to take into account BoH/Teclis/similar spells and were just noting that the Miscasts caused by Pandemonium do not cause spells to be cast with IF. I could be wrong, though. Certainly seems to be room for argument on both sides, though I would personally play it as I originally suggested in my previous post.

Ya, I would also play it the same as Jin has suggested.

Both the HE player and the WoC player would benefit from the ruling, which I think is in line with "the most important rule."

Agreed. By RAW, I think you'd be stuck rolling a die, if you're opponent really wanted to stick it to you, but the intention of Pandemonium is pretty clear.