Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well, if Afterlife is not proving profitable, I can offer insight on my own personal views towards that.
1. Maturity. There's no system as Anvil said. The game can't be prosperous as it does not exist. Models do though.
2. Those models I just mentioned are mostly nice. There are some that fall into the midground category of generic-ness. There are some that are amazing. There are some that I personally am not fond of. That's pretty normal for any range of models. I didn't back the KS though because the pricing didn't make sense to me at the time. I still can't really go there to be honest, outside of a few interesting figures for scenarios. I "would" buy a bunch of stuff but a lot of overlap on things I'm expecting from HINT or options from Infinity, MERCS, and other ranges that are along the same lines but often available cheaper.. it just doesn't make sense for me.
3. Uncertainty. Before any of this nonsense about KS posts came up I had already fostered reservations. Not because I doubt Anvil in particular but as someone who liked Confrontation, AT-43, Void, etc etc.. I value my disposable income and buying a line of miniatures without a clear path forward (or even a ruleset) is not something I can afford to do anymore.

Again.. I've bought from Anvil before and they're nice quality and fast and accurate service thus far. I plan on doing business with them and wish them nothing but great things.. but there's nothing endearing about them or their products any more than Maxmini, Mad Robot, Kromlech, etc. All of these small businesses have great product and I am happy to read about their successes but I'm past the point of feeling obligated to save any of them from their failures. If Anvil or any of these small guys want to stay in business, they have to do a)whatever keeps the lights on b)what keeps their business moving forward, and c)what grows their customer base.

Anyway.. rant over..
I hope we see more Afterlife. I don't currently have plans of buying Space Marine knock offs outside of maybe converting a few to completely non-40k type projects. If not, like I said, it's cool there's a LOT of fish in the sea :/

@DS:
At least two FLGSs around here do take leaps of faith with less than established systems - as long as they look promising, are ready to put on shelves, and seem to be backed by a company that will go the distance.
MLaw's point 1 is germane here: as soon as that 'system' is there - even just two factions and a rulebook, with decent retail-suitable packaging - they are perfectly willing to consider taking the leap.
Hell, I've had one proprietor explain to me he didn't bother with frostgrave since other stores had beaten him to it - he figures to be profitable he should get in early and get in hard. Funny enough, his store seems to be doing great. lots of folks in at all times, selling loads of stuff, you name it. Then again, he's the sort of fellow who knows how to run a business; get in quick, and get in hard. That's one store I was fairly sure would have been a likely early adopter, probably building a fair bit of community - until this happened. Moment he sees this I'm fairly sure what the response will be - no Afterlife there, not ever.

Rule 1 isn't optional, motyak

@Dwartist
Thing is, us gaming types would like a player base and community to go with those models. Generic rulesets are all fine and dandy but their utility for competitive play pales in comparison with a balanced, tailored system specifically for a particular subset of all available models.
You're entirely right all of that is irrelevant to someone who just paints pretty things - then again that was never a point of contention here

I personally backed a small company wanting to expand a miniatures line. I backed for the miniatures, not the game, end of story. I have made multiple purchases from Anvil mainly for bits and conversions. The fact is they were built and originally a bits/proxy miniatures type company like many others.

 MLaw wrote:
I've bought from Anvil before and they're nice quality and fast and accurate service thus far. I plan on doing business with them and wish them nothing but great things.. but there's nothing endearing about them or their products any more than Maxmini, Mad Robot, Kromlech, etc. All of these small businesses have great product and I am happy to read about their successes but I'm past the point of feeling obligated to save any of them from their failures. If Anvil or any of these small guys want to stay in business, they have to do a)whatever keeps the lights on b)what keeps their business moving forward, and c)what grows their customer base..

That is sort of what the main point I was trying to make earlier. None of those companies have a miniatures line with rules and they haven't gone out of business. Very few of those, if any are stocked in any retailer store, at least in the US.

If we were to go off the assumptions of Bolognesus, then Anvil has just spelled their doom. Their whole 'Afterlife' product line is going to fail, lead them to ruin all because they didn't create polished rules (the rules are already there) with pretty pictures, make a book and a 2 player box set for retailers to carry. It has failed and already failed because of that and it is their fault for not going one step further. Any chance of this ever becoming more will never happen because local game stores who wouldn't even be looking at this game currently, will look back at his statement and decide "Nope".

I'm fairly intelligent. I've worked for Blizzard, Upper Deck, Cryptozoic Games, Renegade Game Studio and continually do the convention circuit in the US... but I just don't follow the perception that 2 LGS "might" have carried a line translates into "failed business and the spiral to death" because rules (which are already out) will take longer to polish up. I don't understand or get where the extremes are coming from Nor do I see historical evidence of other games where this has even mattered or somehow led "death spiral a mere statement like yours will inevitably create" has happened. We're jumping to this conclusion because of a possible 2 LGS that "might have" carried the line... you know provided they had a polished rulebook and 2 player box.

It would be completely different if we were having this discussion one year from now and nothing else has changed. But no time has passed to even create an factual idea of the direction and what the statement really means.

 Bolognesus wrote:
Frostgrave

This must be a overseas thing or regional because no one has bought into that, other than for miniatures. I haven't seen anyone play it at conventions or in stores in the Northwest. I don't even know anyone who is playing, WH40K, Malifaux, Infinity, XWing, WarmaHorde are pretty much the main things. However I do realize that it doesn't translate into "failed game" because my sample size, even if I factor in the NW is still too small. I've heard great things about. 'm sure it is a great game, and I might get to it eventually but currently it just isn't a thing.

 Bolognesus wrote:
apparently it's perfectly okay to share news, as long as I'm not negative about such inane decisions?

There is nothing actually wrong with being negative. There is nothing wrong with sharing news positive or negative. Unfortunately most of the statements that have been made hasn't been news, it has been subjective conjecture. It is a lot of "the sky is falling" mixed with a bit of "they shot themselves in the foot" but without any actual evidence of that. We're literally having a discussion about 2 LGS who might have carried a game but won't because of an owner being upfront and open on the state of things. I didn't even know Anvil Industries was targeting, marketing or trying to get into local game stores at the time.

 Bolognesus wrote:
us gaming types would like a player base and community to go with those models.

This is pretty accurate, almost every gamer wants to have a player base and community to go with whatever miniatures or game they are buying. Unfortunately that doesn't happen for many games. Here is the thing, everything else aside, the only thing that builds a community is the player-base and community. Local game stores don't build it, even carrying product doesn't create it. The manufacturers and game designers don't create it. It is the players that make it. It takes someone to go "This is a fun game, I like X and Y, come play". Then they demo and their friends like it and play. It is that simple.

To build my World of Warcraft Trading card group from 2 players to 40 and then running State and Regional Championships with 100-150 players took months of work. It wasn't the game company, the game or the LGS that did it but me with the help of some great judges. To get XWing and Infinity to take off took a bit longer, I didn't work at it and sort of pushed people to the store around times. I didn't have time to actually play with them or run sessions in the store. They got there about 1 1/2 years later but it sure wasn't because I helped.

Whenever you start off the introduction with "the game is dead". He had rules, but he didn't make a 2Player set (which many games don't even have) nor is there a rulebook to print out (because who cares about PDFs that are available) so there is no point carrying or playing this game (that wasn't even being marketed to retailers at the time). The chances are it will build a community, it will always be a community of 0.

 Bolognesus wrote:
Screw that. I'll call this sort of ruinous idiocy as I see it

Since you don't know me and I don't know you personally. We are all blank faces on the internet. I'm looking for some examples of similar situations this has happened. I'm looking for some factual trackable things we can look at, that would lead us to the "doom and gloom" philosophy that you are dead set on. The reason I ask is because regionally I know places vary with what is hot, what isn't, how big a game store is and what they focus on and carry. I have no idea if there have been 50 games that where carried overseas but never made it big so never were heard of in the US, which are you using to come to your conclusion on things. I'm just looking for a few examples so that others can draw similar conclusions... because right now it has been hyperbole.

The closest I can come to a somewhat similar situation is Dream-Forge games with their need to refocus and change gears. They don't have a ruleset. They make some great miniatures, although it is plastic which I put them in a different category than Anvil technically speaking. However they have had to shift gears because of increased costs and other things. Retailers don't carry their products. However I wouldn't say they are quite yet at the "doom and gloom" stage. However other than that... I don't know of others.

When the rules are finished maybe make a starter kit, and i hate to say it GW has it player base (although it is diminishing), X-wing can ride on the Star wars coattails but other emerging systems need to advertise, create a buzz, otherwise it will fade into obscurity.

So, Bolognesus. Is your theory that if Anvil puts out a starterset sometime in the future, with a printed ruebook, no retailers will carry it since it was delayed. But they would be into carrying it if it was released now?

 Bolognesus wrote:
when something like this happens, the system affected will just wimper out. Retailers will choose not to carry it without being vocal about that.

Maybe. Or maybe the initial starter, and a tour of gaming groups/conventions and a push of funds from a new bits range will help that in a few years. In the UK, Afterlife is stocked by Dark Sphere and Wayland Games - two of the five or six big hobby online retailers. Hell, I can walk into Dark Sphere and see a whole range of properly packaged, professionally marketed miniatures hanging on the shelves to buy over the counter. I think that's better than what a lot of games manage such a short time in.

I don't foresee doom and gloom here, though I think it might take a bit longer now to get the game to a 'standard' level of saturation. Fine. That's what all the other games systems had to do, too.

Morning all,

I don't have a huge amount to add to the discussion beyond what was in my original KS post, but I have read everyone's comments and I appreciate that almost everyone is supportive and understanding.

Bolognesus - You clearly think that the way I'm my business is wrong and you have every right to state that publically. But, respectfully, you are wrong, and you don't have anything like enough knowledge about me or my business to second guess my decisions.

As I am the one with detailed knowledge of my business, my short and long term plans, our companies strengths and weaknesses, market position and prospects for the game, I respectfully state that I have made what I believe, after very careful consideration, is the right choice for Anvil Industry and Afterlife, now and in the future.

If you think Afterlife is dead and you want to get out of the system, you are welcome to post any of our miniatures you don't want back to us, and I will give you a full refund of what you paid. Please email me if you would like to take me up on this offer.

I started Anvil Industry to make awesome toys and create happy customers, if you are unhappy, I'd rather return your money.


---------------


To everyone else who has been more supportive of our business plan, some more details -

Other than Darksphere who stock our products with reasonable success, we don't currently supply any other retailers (Wayland Games have our stuff listed, but we've not resupplied them in a while now and they don't physically stock any great quantity).

We have not actually made any serious attempt at pushing our game out to retailers yet - this is because as some have stated - there is no point trying to persuade retailers to stock an incomplete product.

Over the past few months we have been designing and completing our packaging, including starter box sets which will soon have very nice looking artwork.

Once we have a more complete rules set, we will print a "quick start" edition in A5 format (full rules, but no art or other content) and include it free of charge with the starter boxes.

The big push to get the game stocked in retail stores will come when we have 3-4 different starter boxes, and a full printed rulebook later this year. All the development work for this will continue along side the various other projects I'm planning.


We will be releasing new bits, conversion parts and some new Exo-Lord figures in the next few months in the run up to Salute in April. Afterlife development will continue in the background.

If you would like to see the Afterlife game and figures in person and perhaps get a demo game in, here are some dates for your diary-

7th Feb (THIS SUNDAY) Vapnartak show in York - display table and sales but no demo games.
27th Feb - HATECON1 in Bethnal green, east London - sales and full demo games all day.
28th Feb - Display/demo games at Paradice Boardgame cafe in Bromley, South London.

26th March - Anvil Industry 5th Birthday Open Day at our studios in East London, with a tour and gaming, snacks, drinks etc all day.

16th April - SALUTE - Entire range for sale and Demo games running all day.
7th May - Carronade games show at Falkirk - We will be there, hopefully running demo games.

3-5th of June - Our first appearance at UK Games Expo in Birmingham, which we are excited about!

DarkSphere in central London - We still need to organise with them, but I will announce a date for a day of Demo games there some time soon.

----------


Later this evening, we should hopefully be releasing the new double handed melee weapons for Exo-Lords I have been previewing recently, the first casts came out of the master mould this morning and they are looking really nice!

Thanks again everyone,

Joel

Salute eh? May have to pop by then and pick up a few bits for my Horus Heresy projects.

Maybe also donate some cookies to you.

Bolognesus, I just don't get where the depth of your venom comes from. You are massively over-reacting, suggesting the game is dead just as Joel announces that he is paying a professional artist to produce art for the rules, organising packaging for the starter sets, planning to release a fuller rulebook later in the year, paying for a fully painted studio army and the like.

I was at the studio again on Monday at the start of this week doing more playtesting of Afterlife, Joel has invited me back again later in the month for more. He showed me some of the artwork referred to above, he showed me the packaging starter sets, he is demoing it at the places mentioned above. The game is moving forwards, and it is going to succeed. Your own negativity towards the game is not only wrong, it strikes me as oddly bitter. Why do you feel the need to be not just negative, but outright spiteful?

Afterlife is continuing, and will continue, and the Exo-lords range will be improved too, allowing the company to prosper and Afterlife to be guaranteed a long-term future as well as being the success it already is.

 Anvils Hammer wrote:

...
If you think Afterlife is dead and you want to get out of the system, you are welcome to post any of our miniatures you don't want back to us, and I will give you a full refund of what you paid.
...
I started Anvil Industry to make awesome toys and create happy customers, if you are unhappy, I'd rather return your money.

= First class customer service.

As a knee-jerk reaction to this post I went directly to your site and placed an order

Well, two handed weapons are now available.

Heads up: the 2 or more for £8 on the 7-packs (tested with scythes and chainglaives, possibly other weapons too) doesn't seem to be working, they show in the basket as the £8.50 preorder price

Charax wrote:
Heads up: the 2 or more for £8 on the 7-packs (tested with scythes and chainglaives, possibly other weapons too) doesn't seem to be working, they show in the basket as the £8.50 preorder price

Thanks for catching that! I should have checked but it was late. Manually fixed now, and actually cheaper at £7.50 per set when buying two or more of the same one.

Cheers

Yes indeed - Double handed Melee weapons are NOW AVAILABLE

Glad to see this thread return to some normality, I understand concerns over the delay but the negativity in which it has come across was uncalled for.
Hats off you to you Joel for offering to refund him for the return of the unwanted miniatures , customer service top class.

I have to say I backed the KS as a miniature collector not a gamer, but how impressed was I when they turned up

Some great miniatures and fantastic vehicles, I hope the demand picks up so you can expand the afterlife format more.
However I completely understand the need to cater to demand of the market, after all being a small business is tough enough to survive so if you can make a profit then you need to divert.

I am sure you will continue with afterlife all be it a little slower than first thought, plus I think it could benefit from a slower creation allowing time to get things right rather than rushing it to market and failing that way.

I know you said you will be expanding the Exo range but will you be working on any regiment range ?

 Fifty wrote:
Bolognesus, I just don't get where the depth of your venom comes from. You are massively over-reacting, suggesting the game is dead just as Joel announces that he is paying a professional artist to produce art for the rules, organising packaging for the starter sets, planning to release a fuller rulebook later in the year, paying for a fully painted studio army and the like.

What faction are you collecting? I really don't have time for more games but this argument has inspired me to buy a starter set and join in!

Ian, I have a lot of both Republic and Unity Council as I shelled out for £350 on the Kickstarter, but I am planning to make Republic my main force.

Fancy a game at HATE soon?

I've picked up a few Afterlife pieces just for painting, they're great models.


Joel, just a heads up, there's a couple of spelling mistakes in the two handed weapons product description. 3rd bullet point it says half instead of haft and idea instead of ideal. Not the biggest deal in the world, but just thought you might want to correct it,

Second Instigator almost finished (just the vehicle weapon mount to do)

REALLY love the look of all the AFTERLIFE stuff and I hope to get a large force (or two) real soon - keep up the good work!

For me, 40K is dead, and 30K a...slight future possibility.

ANVIL INDUSTRY is AFTERLIFE!

 Alpharius wrote:
REALLY love the look of all the AFTERLIFE stuff and I hope to get a large force (or two) real soon - keep up the good work!

For me, 40K is dead, and 30K a...slight future possibility.

ANVIL INDUSTRY is AFTERLIFE!

I agree with this. Knowing how the numbers side works though and how long it takes for something like Afterlife to grow to the point of being sustainable as the flagship product.. I don't feel like we'll see this side of Anvil soon.

I would like to suggest a possible middleground. Expand or support the Afterlife range in such a way that it is capable of filling a proxy role (for IG or SMs even with scouts and some clever cross-selection type units (could be used as power armor or dreadnoughts or grey knights or centurions..hey you've got a lot of that already). This is pretty much what Mantic did up until the Warpath reboot where they gave Orks the middle finger and stepped away from "counts as" territory in a more significant way. Enforcers don't really look anything like Space Marines but they are armored and cheap so people were snapping them up and using them like that until Mantic's game(s) were almost self sufficient.

There's some negativity surrounding this but I don't think the opportunity available to you should be overlooked Anvil. Someone was asking for power loaders and I supported that earlier in the thread.. if you did them right they could easily be CCW dreadnoughts. Just as an example of how it could work.
Like I said, I wish Anvil Industries all the best and that's where that suggestion is coming form. The setting, idea, and notion of Afterlife are appealing to me you just need to get it to a point where it's marketable

I love the two-handed axe, you've managed to give the arms 'clearance' from the bulky torso of your average powered-armour suit without making them overlong.

I was interested in the 'regiment bionic legs' but i noticed they are out of stock. Will they be returning? I was plenty interested in a couple of the other items in your, very reasonably priced , store but i have my heart set on the legs in particular.

I really like the more upright, natural, poses they have.

Cannot exalt enough, nicely done!

Afternoon all,

Thanks for further feedback,

@LDD - Yeah now we've hit the brake a bit I'm feeling a lot more relaxed, its easier to plan and if anything I get more stuff done when I'm working on a few things at once - I can jump between them when I get bored.

Good news- new Infantry kits and bits are coming soon - torsos and arms to match the legs, heads, weapons and bionics which are currently available. Expect to see something before the end of the month!

@Sockwithaticket - thanks for the heads up, I thought I had corrected all the "half/haft" errors, Ill fix it now.

@Dwartist - amazing work as usual! Seriously love your stuff! I'll be painting one up in the 'official' scheme and if I get it to look half as good as that I will be delighted!

@MLaw - thanks for the feedback - I know that making Units with wider appeal in other game systems is where the smart money is. The scale of Afterlife is a little more realistic than 40k, so not everything will look right, but certainly any non-human units, battle robots for example, are useful in a lot of games, and I suspect that's what 90% of the kits out there are used for at the moment.
I will certainly be prioritising units with wider appeal over more specialist 'Afterlife Only' stuff.

@Perkustin -

Thanks! Yeah the arms are pretty much the same length as the regular ones. keeping the arms nice and wide apart makes it a lot easier to get the clearance. It is still a pretty tight fit with a lot of helmets though, so I cant necessarily recommend the "over the head" pose, but its an option for people who want it.

Yes, regiments Bionic Legs will return as a part of our soon to be revamped "Infantry" range with some new parts, hopefully later this month.

Anvil - That makes sense. Remember though that there are people out here that don't care if it's out of scale with GW. If I'm buying your infantry for example.. I'm not really going to be mixing and matching. If you have humans I want to use, I'll make the whole army out of them. I'm sure you already know that but there it is anyway

The robot thing is definitely a good call. Also.. a dropship. I love them and tend to buy them from various places. Mantic showed theirs and I'm not a fan and Antenociti is dragging feet on dropships so if you've got one in you, I'd love to see it

That picture made me REALLY want to buy some Anvil stuff... Beautiful.

I know not likely to happen but I really would love to see some kind of bike to fit in with your Afterlife range, do you think this could be a possibility ?

Seconded - the would be great!

Do you do single versions of these or is everything bulk buy? Also does it include the arms or just the axe and hands?

http://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/Double-Handed-Axe

Arms are included according to the store page.

Set of Seven Double Handed Axes with attached Exo-Lord arms.