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I just got into WHFB and I chose ogres as I have a massive 40k ork army and wanted something with a small model count. I can't seem to decide on which is better a slavegiant or a gorger. please take into account that I have not yet played a game and am just starting to collect my army.

thanks!

I think it all depends on your army build.
When I run big blocks of infantry (like 2 units of 18 with some support), I like gorgers. In this case, the gorgers walk on from behind, and take up "flee space". You have to move past my gorger when you flee, and that would put you off the table. Since "Flee" is the good choice when a horde of ogres is coming out you, the gorgers provide ideal support.

On the other hand, when I'm running nothing but 4 or 6 strong blocks of ogres, the extra hitting power of the slave giant is really nice.

-Matt

I guess you could say(IMHO) that Gorgers are more useful and Giants are more fun. Gorgers are pretty nice at getting in where you need them and can assassinate people with their Killing Blow and they can do the occasional tarpitting since they are unbreakable.

Giants are not that great to begin with and the Slavegiant suffers from an older(and weaker) special attacks chart. The slavegiant is also not stubborn, but this comes with a cheaper price tags. The older special attacks chart is the issue.

Honestly, for best results, don't take either. The Rare units in the Ogre book have become rather subpar in 8th Edition, comparitively speaking.

If you take 2 Gorgers, you have a 50% chance of getting a T3 charge on a war machine or the ilk. However. if you aren't charging with the rest of your army by T3 (and thus invalidating the war machines anyways), you've already lost the game. Therefore, I'd recommend saving the 150 points and buying more Bulls or Ironguts.

Likewise, a Slavegiant adds nothing but randomness and is not Stubborn, making it highly likely to lose combat and run off against a ranked infantry unit (the most common unit you're going to see in 8th). Just not worth the discount over normal Giants, which aren't particularly useful either.

Just in general, your points should be spent on Bulls, IGs, Gnoblars, Scraplaunchers, and not a whole lot more. Anything else might be more fun, but it'll be less effective.

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:Honestly, for best results, don't take either. The Rare units in the Ogre book have become rather subpar in 8th Edition, comparitively speaking.

If you take 2 Gorgers, you have a 50% chance of getting a T3 charge on a war machine or the ilk. However. if you aren't charging with the rest of your army by T3 (and thus invalidating the war machines anyways), you've already lost the game. Therefore, I'd recommend saving the 150 points and buying more Bulls or Ironguts.

Likewise, a Slavegiant adds nothing but randomness and is not Stubborn, making it highly likely to lose combat and run off against a ranked infantry unit (the most common unit you're going to see in 8th). Just not worth the discount over normal Giants, which aren't particularly useful either.

Just in general, your points should be spent on Bulls, IGs, Gnoblars, Scraplaunchers, and not a whole lot more. Anything else might be more fun, but it'll be less effective.

That's why I don't suggest charging with gorgers. If my opponent is 5 or 6 deep, I gorger will stand with his back base ~4 inches from the table edge. When you flee, you move an inch past him, and off the table.
If you don't flee, you'll be in for a world of hurt as the ogre horde tosses out it's 54+ attacks, + impact hits and stomps.
The problem with ogres in 8th is catching what you break. Gorgers help with this.
Using them to take out warmachines is a bad plan, as you outlined. By the time you can charge a gorger, the rest of your army should be in melee and safe from those pesky machines.
Throwing a gorger into a unit isn't great either. T5 no save doesn't last as long as it used to thanks to supporting attacks.

The problem I have with slave giants is actually the Init 3. When a giant decided to yell and bawl, none of your ogres get to swing. Sure you win combat, but your opponent is more than likely steadfast; and without all the attacks (or stomps and thunder stomp), will be steadfast for at least another round.
The "good" part of the slave giant is he is not immune to psych and can choose to flee. Since all the newer better giants cannot, sometimes you can get a good bait and flee option with a giant. Typically though, this is only an advantage against a less skilled opponent... ie, the ones you don't need advantage against.

Scrap launchers are golden.

-Matt

Catching what you break? I run a hunter w/2 sabretusks next to my horde and multi-charge; when I break the enemy, sometimes I just release the sabretusks.... 8move will pretty much catch anything.

I love Yehtis. Think of them like Necron Wraiths. They ignore terrain when they move, even cliffs don't stop them. A unit of 3 Yehties can mop up a weak side and scoot along the backfield wreaking havok.

I agree, Slavegiants are too slow and are shooting magnets which can be somewhat good but you hate to see that many points just die without even contacting an enemy. 1 lucky cannon shot and poof. With premeasuring, warmachines are insanely accurat now and I have yet to get a giant into combat so I stopped taking mine.

Gorgers are too slow to help you (see above comments).

Just take an ogre horde of bulls and a couple of small-medium units of ironguts and run like heck across the field. The ironcurse icon is an awesome 5pt purchase vs. those cannons.

Giants are better in pairs.

Gorgers can go it alone.


Giants are bullet magnets and draw fire from the ogres(very important)

Gorgers don't have an effect until at least turn 3 and by then the ogres should be in combat.


Gorgers are good warmachine hunters and can take enemy blocks on due to being Unbreakable.

Giants are good against infantry when supporting an Ogre unit, but can't kill them by themselves.

I've been hearing "you need two of this monster for it to be any good", and I usually just don't see it.
In 7th, I could understand the sentiment; since most monsters could mop the floor with most of your opponent's army, they were a prime target. Now, though, with how threatening a decent block of infantry is, I'd say that your opponent's priorities are situational, if not downright opinion-based (opinional?).

If I had to choose between shooting at a Slavegiant or shooting at the same points-worth of ogres, I might actually go for the ogres at this point. As stated above several times, the giant isn't all that great. I think one and a unit of bulls or ironguts or whatever is as valid as two giants. If not more so.

(Back to the OP, though) I think Gorgers are more tactically valid than Giants, but if you're looking for a low, low model count, why not go with the more expensive one?

Yes, you might ignore the giant, but not all Warhammer players are rational like you.


The Slave Giant is still a Giant. you shoot him, you do't shoot my ogres. you shoot my ogres, you don't shoot the Slave Giant and he survives to get into CC alongside my depleted Ogre unit.

I personally have never used Gorgers, but i like what they are capable of.

the thing i don't like is that Gorgers can be lead around after a unit i don't want them attacking.

you have control over a giants movement, not a Gorger.


I also like the Giant model, but that's irrelavent to the question.

I've used a giant several times and got 0 use out of him; he always died to shooting before reaching the enemy. I understand what you're saying, Grey Templar; however, I would prefer to get some use out of something that I'm paying that many points for because, alternatively, I can take 6 or 7 more bulls instead.

I've used the Gorger 1 time so far and it plays unholy havoc on your opponent's backfield. He might not show up until turn 2 (mine showed up on turn 3) but he'll get his points back plus. In my case, he killed a cannon team, a mortar team and tied up a halberdier unit for 3 turns before they finally killed him. Economy.

Remember, you get to place him where you want on any table edge; there's nothing that says you have to place him where it benefits your opponent (e.g. near some large block of infantry).

you can just measure usefulness by it's kills.


how many ogres would that shooting have killed if aimed at your Bulls?


and a slave giant is worth 5 naked bulls. less if they have any equipment.

Grey Templar wrote:you can just measure usefulness by it's kills.


how many ogres would that shooting have killed if aimed at your Bulls?


and a slave giant is worth 5 naked bulls. less if they have any equipment.

Let's say it's 4 bulls, that's 12 wounds and 12 attacks; meanwhile my slaughtermaster/butcher combo and guts magic stacking has gotten a Trollguts spell (or two) on them so 0 die from the 1 cannon shot that killed my giant. (ideally of course)

I love the giant model too but the rules are nowhere near as cool. IMHO it should have a higher toughness or an ability to be a rock lobber (throw big rocks) instead of just lumbering across the field screaming "Shoot me! Shoot me!".

By turn 2 my Yhetees are killing archers anyway and the gorger mops up artiller on turn 3 (again, ideally).

I don't know about where you play but most of the games I've seen in my area have too little terrain. I play with enough terrain that my bull-star can go a turn or two without being cut to ribbons by shooting, depending on the setup.

1 cannon ball killed your giant.

you do realize that is a rare occurance. the most powerful cannons are D6 wounds. he would have had to roll a 6 after bouncing properly and wounding.

Grey Templar wrote:1 cannon ball killed your giant.

you do realize that is a rare occurance. the most powerful cannons are D6 wounds. he would have had to roll a 6 after bouncing properly and wounding.

Anything but a 1 to wound and he did get lucky by rolling a 6 on the number of wounds. Hitting is a non-starter now with premeasuring; all an empire player has to do now is measure 6 or 7 inches in front of the target and get rolling if it doesn't "hit" then chances are it's hitting the target.

8th edition made warmachines insanely powerful.

Another time it took 2 cannons and another time it was a round of handgunner/crossbow shooting from two attachments.

It could be just my bad luck but so far my one use of the gorger has exceeded my 3 uses of the giant by a long shot. If the giant works for you, more power to ya.

Well, i always use 2 together.


i have been slightly lucky in that enemy cannons always seem to bounce improperly. either overshooting or bouncing short.

I have real issues seeing what 350 points of Slavegiant can possibly accomplish that 350 points of Bulls (or worse yet, Scrappies) cannot.

Distraction? Heck, that's another unit of Bulls altogether and then some. That equates to 3 Bull Charges, 18-22 attacks, and then 3 stomps. It can also disrupt ranks, isn't a 0-rank Monster that never breaks steadfast, and can actually take on units on its own, sometimes.

(In case it's not blatantly obvious, I've never been a fan of Giants in general and Slavegiants in particular.)

I never have my giants charge a unit alone. they are always hitting alongside a unit of ogres.


I will admit that Giants arn't as useful as Scrappies, but they take up 2 different slots.

I also don't take Giants under 2.5k points either and then i usually prefer my Rhinox Riders.

Grey Templar wrote:I never have my giants charge a unit alone. they are always hitting alongside a unit of ogres.


I will admit that Giants arn't as useful as Scrappies, but they take up 2 different slots.

I also don't take Giants under 2.5k points either and then i usually prefer my Rhinox Riders.

Yes, the Scraplauncher and Giant take up different slots, but I've yet to see an Ogre army at 2500 points that actually has 3 Scraplaunchers and room for Giants. Just an idle observation.

Rhinox Riders are definitely superior, but their legality is questionable, so I've avoided them ever since 8th started.

true. if i had to make a choice between Giants and Scrappies it would definitly be Scrappies, but i don't have any right now


I have never had a problem with using Rhinox Riders. they are going to be in the next book so i think people have just accepted them as permanant fixtures.

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:I have real issues seeing what 350 points of Slavegiant can possibly accomplish that 350 points of Bulls (or worse yet, Scrappies) cannot.

Distraction? Heck, that's another unit of Bulls altogether and then some. That equates to 3 Bull Charges, 18-22 attacks, and then 3 stomps. It can also disrupt ranks, isn't a 0-rank Monster that never breaks steadfast, and can actually take on units on its own, sometimes.

(In case it's not blatantly obvious, I've never been a fan of Giants in general and Slavegiants in particular.)

If you're comparing hitting power, two giants or 10 ogres is dishing out about the same amount of love. Bulls get chance to break ranks, where as the giants are S6, and use up a lot less frontage.
Thunder Stomp + D6 S6 "hits". I think it all comes down to what's the rest of the army looking like.
Though don't underestimate the auto hit. Sometimes rolling to hit really blows.
Personally, I think Rhinox are over-priced in 8th; and that's ignoring the legality issue. With step up and larger units, these guys aren't what they used to be.

Where I do see giants working is a gnoblar heavy build, max scrap, max giant, and smaller ogre blocks. Gnoblars grab and steadfast, giants/scraps clean up.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:\
If you're comparing hitting power, two giants or 10 ogres is dishing out about the same amount of love. Bulls get chance to break ranks, where as the giants are S6, and use up a lot less frontage.
Thunder Stomp + D6 S6 "hits". I think it all comes down to what's the rest of the army looking like.
Though don't underestimate the auto hit. Sometimes rolling to hit really blows.
Personally, I think Rhinox are over-priced in 8th; and that's ignoring the legality issue. With step up and larger units, these guys aren't what they used to be.

Where I do see giants working is a gnoblar heavy build, max scrap, max giant, and smaller ogre blocks. Gnoblars grab and steadfast, giants/scraps clean up.

-Matt

If we're comparing solely hitting power, then yes, Slavegiants are perhaps equivalent to equal points in Bulls, assuming that the Giant rolls well on his random attacks. All too often, you'll kill a single model and get run down.

If we're comparing stats across the board, the Ogres provide comparable hitting power to a "good" roll for a Giant, have more wounds, can break ranks, take a standard (for Blood and Glory) and help you cross the 25% Core minimum.

Let's face it, if you have 3 Scraplaunchers at, say 2500 points, you've already spent well a hefty chunk of points (the minimum to get 3 Scrappies is around 850 points and doesn't give you enough Core points to have a legal army). Trying to fit them in, plus a Giant or two, and have an effective army? I just don't see it.