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Exactly as the title suggests?

I am building them now and can't decide, the save is quite awful already so I'm thinking the shield may be of use with my initiative 2...

What do you guys do?

EDIT: I'm usually fighting WoC... 2 units of knights, one large marauder unit, one marauder horsemen unit and one chaos knight unit.

My vote is for the extra attack. Streamline their strengths is my attitude.

Savages go 2 weapons, normal go shields.
You get 3 attacks on one unit, and a 5+ armor and parry on the other. The other combo's are half measures.

-Matt

idk, especially with my empire i have always gone Halberdiers (extra str) over +1 to your save and the 6+ ward on swordmen.

With orcs that already have T4 i believe that it would always be better to take the extra attack. What is the ward going to do? save 1-2 guys in combat? 6 attacks (assuming 6 wide) will get you a better result against weaker foes (combined with the sneaky stabbin spell from little waagh in the flank of a unit (rerolling hits and wounds)

if you want survivability, take units of 40+ night goblins with shields and nets. much better for the cost as long as you get steadfast with the general and BSB nearby

I think it depends on what you want the Boyz to do. If you want them to do damage, then two weapons is better, because you're upping your power by 50%. If the target is something they can hurt, more attacks will likely get you a better return that a few extra chances to save. If you're relying on other units to provide damage (chariots, characters, small elite units) then you might just have the boyz there for ranks and breaking steadfast on the enemy unit. In this case you really don't want to be giving away wounds to the enemy, so shields are probably better.

I have no experience with O&G so take this with an enormous grain of salt.

I have trouble picturing a unit of boyz getting wiped out. I have trouble picturing that unit even getting reduced to its second rank. Either it'll win combat (by wiping the enemy out or forcing a flee), or the orc unit will flee. I just can't see a scenario where an orc unit is dropped to its second line and doesn't run, while still having a chance of winning the combat in the next round. Because of this, my attitude is improve their ability to do damage (because as long as that second rank wont be breached - and thus lowering their combat effectuation - until the fight is for all purposes lost), rather than improve their ability to soak hits.

It is perfectly feasible to field 30 strong Orc units, which gives them enough ranks to lose for a while and still retain Steadfast. It will take some time to reduce a unit's ranks against most foes.

To the OP: If you're expecting your orcs to fight Marauders, then the extra hand weapon is probably better. You'll put a lot of decent attacks and stand a chance of winning combat. If you're expecting your orcs to fight Warriors and Knights, the 5 extra attacks with extra hand weapons might get you half a wound against Warriors and probably nothing against Knights, but parry would likely get you at least one save, so the CR advantage swings in the shield's advantage against tougher troops.

If you don't break the opponent in the 1st round, you've got 1 extra s3 attack, instead of a 5+ & Parry.
T4 is nice, but T4 with light armor and shield is actually pretty durable. It's why people buy shields for crossbow dwarves.

The saves will do more for your combat res than 5-6 S3 attacks will. If you're taking so few wounding hits that the armor doesn't pay off, you don't care, because you'll be winning combat anyway.

I just don't see a good reason to take 6+ armor and 2 attacks over 6+ ward, 3 attacks, and impact hits.
You're taking an orc that comes with armor, and trying to make him a combat monster.
Put more armor on the armor guys, and more chop on the chop guys.

-Matt

Honestly, 2 units of both would be good, but if you have to choose one, I say dual Choppas. If you're up against WoC, they usually have Strength 4-5, so you'll usually have a 6+ save or even just the 6+ ward. At least with the dual Choppas, you do the maximum amount of damage against those WoC.

Dual-Choppas, because you get Parry as opposed to a further +1 to saves now. A static 5+ save versus Chaos Warriors, and a static 4+ versus Marauders? That'd be competitive. 5+/6+ or, against Chaos Warriors, 6+/6+? Add in the fact that now a HW&S is just as expensive for an Orc as two Choppas? I'd take the additional attack.

However, keep in mind that you shouldn't expect regular boyz to take down Chaos Warriors anyways. Heck, you shouldn't expect Big 'Uns to do it without a couple buff spells or the Razor Standard (since there they can at least force 6+ / 5+ saves on the Tzeentch Warriors, as opposed to 5+ / 5+). The additional Choppas are there for 1-2 extra wounds in the first round, backed by a character's attacks or a support unit's active combat resolution (Ex: Boar Chariot into the flank, getting +1-+2 CR before including the D6+1 S5 impact hits effects).

Ok, 6 wide orcs with dual choppas get 6 extra attacks, hit with 3, wound with half, and chaos warriors save half, and then roll parries. That's .6 extra kills; less than 2 kills is average for both ranks.
Chaos warriors swinging on you, hit on 3's kill on 4's; that's 6 kills. Go with the shield, and you cut your losses from 6 to about 4.
Dual choppas is trading .6 kills for 2 losses; and it's worse in the 2nd round, where all your attacks drop to S3.

Goblins can expect to take 6-8 losses (depending on nets), so for an anvil that holds, Orcs with shields do better; because you don't want to still be losing combat when you throw in the chariots/trolls/giant/whatever that kills.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:Ok, 6 wide orcs with dual choppas get 6 extra attacks, hit with 3, wound with half, and chaos warriors save half, and then roll parries. That's .6 extra kills; less than 2 kills is average for both ranks.

Statistically, it's about 1.2 when using shields, 1.8 when using additional Choppa. This is for regular Orc Boyz. Upgrade to Big 'uns, you're looking at about 2.66 wounds with additional Choppas, 1.77 wounds with Shields.

In each case, statistically additional choppas brings you closer to an additional wound, being a greater investment on Big 'uns than regular Boyz however (As a Big 'Un is looking at practically a solid wound advantage, statistically, whereas with shields you're looking at about 3/5ths a point).

Meanwhile, with shields, statistically you save an additional... 1.83 wounds. For regular Boyz, you can argue using shields readily here. For Big 'Uns, though, it's much more challenging, as with S5 and 18 attacks (as opposed to 12) for the first round, you can actually look at putting some hurt back on Chaos Warriors.

Either way, though, Orc Boyz (And Big 'Uns) can't put up the kill ratio needed to take out Chaos Warriors on their own. With Additional Choppas and Big 'uns, you're looking at a 2:1 kill ratio in Chaos' favor for the first round, 3:1 in their favor later rounds. With shields and Big 'uns, you're looking at... 2:1 kill ratio in Chaos' favor the first round, 3:1 kill ratio in Chaos' favor for later rounds. With Additional Choppas alone, you're looking at a 3:1 kill ratio in Chaos' favor for the first round, 9:1 kill ratio in Chaos' favor for the latter rounds. With shields alone, you're looking at a 3:1 kill ratio in Chaos' favor for the first round, and a 9:1 kill ratio in Chaos' favor for the latter rounds.

The Orcs need something to support them, be it a flank-running Chariot or a character in the brick or some other equalizer, as even with charge in shield Orc's favor and an additional two ranks you're still getting a tied combat in the first round, with lost combats in latter rounds.

My preference of Additional Choppas may come from the fact that I tend to take the more, shall we say, "straightforward" approach, usually, and slap a boss inside the unit. Essentially, work on the "Throw enough attacks at 'em with boost of character, you'll get enough wounds and still have the numbers to get an edge." Either way could work, though, and the Choppas (looking at it) are more a preference. 18 non-Big 'uns can take full command and a slightly boosted Big Boss at the same price the Chaos Warriors pay for just being 12 unmarked, shielded, full-command warriors. This is including either additional Choppas or shields on the Boyz. You upgrade to Big 'Uns, drop the champion (who at this point is merely +1A, which wasn't included in statistics anyways), you can still fit in a cheapo Big Boss for about the same points / slightly more (See: Add one more Chaos Warrior).

HawaiiMatt wrote:Goblins can expect to take 6-8 losses (depending on nets),

Actually, with Nets, Night Goblins are just as durable as Orc Boyz w/ Shields. Hit on 3's, wounded on 4's, have a 6+ / 6+ save versus attacks. Nets, Full Command (if you're willing to pay the 10pts for the Big Boss, for some awful reason), 30 Goblins, two fanatics - again - are about the points of 12 unmarked, shielded, full-command Chaos Warriors. Subtract the Boss, upgrade to 35 Night Goblins w/ two fanatics and nets.

The issue here is that, well, you're banking on the Fanatics to win it for you. While you're looking at the same "Odds of being hurt" once combat occurs, you're also looking at Ld. 5 when you fail (even if steadfast, as the Orcs are unlikely to be after they lose), and no mean of putting wounds back. Fanatics will kill about 3.7 Chaos Warriors if you don't force them to land on 'em, and removing only back rank Chaos Warriors isn't going to help you too much.

HawaiiMatt wrote:so for an anvil that holds, Orcs with shields do better; because you don't want to still be losing combat when you throw in the chariots/trolls/giant/whatever that kills.

You'll still be losing combat either way, at least before you throw said things in. I'll concede here, though, and say shields actually (probably) are a better bet.

I haven't seen the new net rules, but in the old rules, they only worked 5/6ths of the time. Since goblins are WS2, it's not like dropping to S2 is going to really impact your kills (you aren't going to get many either way).

If you're thinking big uns, why in the world wouldn't you do it with the savages?
6 wide nets you 24 S5 attacks, compared to 18, along with no chance of panicking on the way in.
You also get a 6+ ward instead of 6+ armor; making you hit harder and be more durable.

That's really the jist of why my orcs have shields, because savages do the 2 choppa thing so much better.

-Matt

I've poured over quite a few equations on this topic, and I have come to a rather depressing outcome:

The hand weapon + shield combo is, on its own, almost always inferior to any other weapon.

A 6+ Ward is almost negligible. A unit of 30 Orcs will save 5 times. The extra attack from two choppas (or from spears, if we're talking gobbos) is basically always better.

Now, this is just considering the unit, all on its own, fighting another unit. If you want your gobs to hold as hard as they can, shields are okay.

A 5+ armour save is okay, but it's not great. Considering S4 is the most common in the game, two 6+ saves aren't all that great.

8th seems to be entirely about killing the other guy faster than he kills you. There is no way to survive, no way to hold out. Just killin'.

As for savage orcs versus regular ones...well, yes. Savage orcs are better. They're also more expensive. Not sure if they're better point-for-point, but I wouldn't doubt it.

Great arguments so far.

I believe thinking pointwise, shields are better. A 30 mob of orcs with extra choppas is 30 points more than shields for 5 extra strength 3(4) attacks at WS 3. Not worth it in my opinion.

Orcs are for static CR and chariots, savages, etc are for active CR.

I just saw what Mantic Games is working on, and my 102 orcs ($129) are all going to have shields.