Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Would this work?

You place three units, two bad ass combat units and one long line of missile troops in front of them.

The opponant's unit has to charge the missile troops as he can not see the other two.

You declare a flee charge reaction, wich should take your missile troops behind the combat troops.

The opponant can try and redirect his charge into one of your units if he wants, in which case the other unit flank charges him next turn.

Or if he fails to redirect his charge his unit stops 1" in front of your two bad ass units. Ready for you to charge him next turn.

It would work with High Elves or other high leadership armies (or with bow-wielding gobbos and a block of orks behind them). Otherwise you run the risk of causing panic in the melee blocks.

Or you do it with empire.
A block horde of 40 halberdiers, a detachment of ~15-20 swordsmen and a detachment of 20 crossbows.
The crossbows line up in the front, with halberdiers and swordsmen behind.
Crossbows shoot until charged, and then flee.
Halberds absorb the charge, and swordsmen counter charge into the flank. Your opponent gets +1 for charging.
You get +1 for charging, 3 ranks, and +1 for flank.
You start the fight up by 4, and with fist fulls of halberd attacks, you've got a very good shot at winning combat.
Or:
Stand and fire with the crossbows, they lose combat and break, then the pursuit/over-run goes into the halberds, with the swordmens counter charging.

Either way, it puts shooters up front for a few turns, then puts your fighting block in melee with the supporting unit on the flank. Unlike other armies, the detachment rules lets you get the support in on the same round, instead of having to charge a 2nd unit in on the next round.
The units are cheap enough where you can take 3 or 4 set ups like that, and cover most of your deployment zone.


The biggest problem with any set up like this is frontage, and missions where you need to advance and take objectives. Densely packed formations are also asking to have a comet/purplesun/pit of shades roll into them.

-Matt

Again though. You are running a big risk of causing panic in your troops. Its kind of a risk vs reward scenario.

NewDeal wrote:Again though. You are running a big risk of causing panic in your troops. Its kind of a risk vs reward scenario.

Detachments don't cause panic.

-Matt

Isn't there a good chance your archers will be caught and destroyed?

I am pretty sure I saw this tactic used quite a bit with wood elves. The dryads are immune to psychology so there wasn't any concern about them fleeing in panic.

Squash wrote:Isn't there a good chance your archers will be caught and destroyed?

If you flee from a charge, you move the fleeing unit first, then the charging unit. Since the fleeing unit bounces through the friendly beat stick, and the charging unit doesn't, you don't get caught, unless the charging unit can fly.

-Matt

...Huh. Cool beans.

Yea, wood elves use it, eagle in front, treekin in back. Eagle flees, then they have to fight treekin.

Well, the tactic can *of course* work. In fact, with these prerequisites in place, I would be surprised if it did not: Two badass combat units AND a missile unit ganging up on a single unspecified enemy unit! Talk about a mismatch!

That's almost the point of Warhammer- to pile on as many points onto a single target, crush them, and move on.

It's like a multi-player game of rock-paper-scissors, where you need a 4+ to inflict a wound onto inferior signs.

So yeah, it's an ideal situation. But those are the ones I'm trying to bring about.

Warpsolution wrote:That's almost the point of Warhammer- to pile on as many points onto a single target, crush them, and move on.

It's like a multi-player game of rock-paper-scissors, where you need a 4+ to inflict a wound onto inferior signs.

So yeah, it's an ideal situation. But those are the ones I'm trying to bring about.

And that's why empire does it so well. They can go wall to wall with lines of detachment shooters backed up by blocks of fighting infantry. It makes it a lot harder to work around the formations, and often by the time you punch through, it's too late in the game to make the turn to run down the flank.
The down side is painting up 100's of puffy pants models, transporting them, and pulling them out of cases.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:transporting them,and pulling them out of cases.

-Matt

Magnetic bases with magnetic movement trays(on both sides) and a metal toolbox. Transport them in formation on their trays.

This just sounds like chain-panic waiting to happen.

It really depends on the circumstances

- Empire: Detachments don't cause panic, so it's not an issue. Fairly decent chance of rallying the detachment on the next turn.

- Elves: Solid LD means that you'd have to be unlucky, but it IS a risk.

- O&G: If goblins are the ones breaking, the Orcs won't even notice thanks to Size Matters. But, you run a very real risk of losing the goblins to continued running.

- Undead can't choose flee as an option, so TK (and possibly VC, I don't know) can't do it anyway.

- No idea on WoC, Beastmen or Demons though.

Warpsolution wrote:
That's almost the point of Warhammer- to pile on as many points onto a single target, crush them, and move on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a far cry from an ace tactician but the point of my Warhammer has always been to neutralize any given opposing unit with as few points and as little effort as possible, not with as many points as possible.

Well, that's because you want to be prepared for the rest of their army- if you charge in with four units at every opportunity, then they'll be able to do the same thing to you.

My point is that, even with a minimalist approach, you still want to stack the odds. It's just that, as you said, it's an ideal situation, so you have to do a give-and-take sort of thing ("how many guys can I throw in there to insure a win, but also have enough guys left after the counter-charge to do it again?")

This sort of tactic is risky. But that's tactics for you.

Seems like a lot of work to get the charge. This isn't 7th edition, the charge is only worth 1 CR. Also means you have to be reacting to your opponent instead of him reacting to you. Give it a try and tell us how it goes.

Did this all the time back in 7th, DE are masters at it. Most of our hammers are ITP and if the unit fleeing is Harpies they wont cause panic anyway.
Still works, just that charging isnt as big anymore, still important if you're fighting things like Ogres though.

Chito wrote:Seems like a lot of work to get the charge. This isn't 7th edition, the charge is only worth 1 CR. Also means you have to be reacting to your opponent instead of him reacting to you. Give it a try and tell us how it goes.

+1 for charging vs your opponent getting a +1 is a 2 point swing in the total.
If that guy coming at you has more ranks and a standard, you just might want to take that charge bonus rather than give it up.

It sucks to lose 400 points of chaos warriors to 225 points of dark elf spearmen, just because you thought you could take the charge, then you get hit with word of pain.

-Matt