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Kirasu wrote:10 assault marines have 1 more special weapon and a lot more assault potential. 250 points gets you 2 flamers, a power fist and a rhino where as a tactical marine squad is 245 for 1 flamer, a missile launcher, power fist and a rhino. Knowing the strength of the BA is using furious charge its rather silly to sit back and fire with boltguns instead of BP + charge.. Again, what is the purpose of the tactical squad? Im sorry you think the interwebs is against it, but tactical marines have been awful for a decade

You are able to take advantage of the cc ability of the assault marines, when they are using rhinos?

Kirasu wrote:The only reason people took them is because they have to.. If chaos space marines only had 1 troop option theyd take more chaos marine squads too! but instead they take plague marines and berserkers more often..

Who would want a t 4 av 3 save as their basic troop choice? I am glad that I have been playing IG for a long time, I just seem to appreciate certain things more so then other players.

Kirasu wrote:Yes, Ive been testing furiosos out and they are amazing. In that scenario you could walk them behind as counter assault. Blood talons are pretty over the top for being free. Who needs S10 when youre S6 lightning claws that give extra WS6 attacks? one furioso can basically kill entire squads now before they even attack

Who needs the assault abilities of the assault marines when you can have these guys doing the real damage in cc?

No, I like the assault marines aswell but I appreciate tactical squads just as much.

schadenfreude wrote:There are a lot of shiny new toys in the BA codex, but the most impressive unit in their codex is the sanguinary priests.

50 a pop, function as independent characters, and 3 of them can be purchased for a single elite slot.

They give a 6" bubble of FNP and FC.

Here are some possibilities with the sanguinary priests.

3 Devastater squads with Feel No Pain, 12 heavy weapons, and say add a 1 or 2 ablative marines to each squad. Devastaters with feel no pain, eat it long fangs.


2/3 missions are objective based. Shiny new toys are cool, but it's troops that win battles.

Assault squads, Tac squads, ans scouts can all have Feel No Pain and Furious Charge.

There are a lot of possibilities. In a tournament setting what would really throw people off is not to field a single vehicle, say six full assault squads with the HQ and sanguinary priests attached backed up by 3 devastator squads.

And these things will change the metagame. It's happened before. Instead of using Trygons with lots of shots, people may use Mawlocs. If it hits, goodbye Dev Squad. And that is only one of many scenarios. Sometimes codices will change the way the game is played, sometimes they don't. Nids didn't really because they didn't make you fret anymore than IG did. Space Wolves raised some eyebrows, but BA are really making you rethink your lists.

Also, not everyone is going to be playing BA. I remember when Wolves came out, my brother and I (who go to tournaments together) thought we'd see a massive influx of Wolf players. Not so. Nids were a little worse, but I think that BA will be on that same level: two or three lists at the tournament. Even then, it comes to the skill of the player, the way the dice roll out, the deployment, the terrain - you name it. It's not like the players place their BA army on the board and then fill out the Win column of their scorecard.

I'm really looking forward to the all-assault squad with no tanks that seeks to "surprise" me with not taking any vehicles, making me waste all my anti-tank weaponry!

I plan to show them why they should have left their jump packs at home

Oshova wrote:Also with the Furioso . . . WS6, Front AV13, and you can equip it with the dreadnought version of lightning claws, that not only allow you to re-roll wounds, but for every unsaved wound you do you get another attack. Yes, this does carry on going until you fail to do anything or the squad is dead. =O

Yeah, basically, unless the unit has an invulnerable save or you roll two 1s in a row to wound (<3% chance), he will annihilate an entire unit.

I'm not really sure about this stuff about assault marines always being better.

If there is an objective in the back, then your assault weapons, furious charge, and extra attacks mean nothing. All the advantages of assault marines are essentially unused. Especially if you're facing a shooty army whose strategy is to try to contest instead of assault.

In that case, wouldn't it make more sense to have a tactical squad with a razorback?

Considering that 2 out of 3 missions are objectives, it seems very sensible to take at least 1 tactical squad.

Also, range is not to be underestimated. I understand that yes, razorbacks are the ranged shooting. With the fast rule, the razobacks can move and shoot. But if the razorback dies, you have 12" range. Razorbacks aren't hard to kill.

An assault squad puts out 27 attacks on the charge. Hits 13.5 times, and does 9 wounds. After saves, it'll be 3 wounds.

A tactical squad puts out 18 attacks on the charge. Does 9 hits, and does 6 wounds. After saves, it'll be 2 wounds.

Hmm...I'm underwhelmed. I think I'll keep my bolter and heavy weapon.

Oshova wrote:Yet another case that boils down to . . . OMG! You charged me, well I lost.

But as we all know this doesn't always work. On Monday, 20 Ork Boyz charge into 5 Deathwing . . . 2 rounds of combat later, the Sgt walks away covered in blood, and the remains of the orks fester on the ground =D That's how we do it in the Dark Angels baby! =D

But yeah, FC on LC is just mean mean mean . . . where can I buy them from? . . . Oh I can give them FNP for 50 points aswell? yes please? =D

Oshova

i would hope the combat went that way. 5 deathwing termies is a minimum of 200pts and 20 orks are 120pts. even with the orks charging, there is still a heck of a points deficit.

Looking at the Furioso, we can rest easy: It can't take lightning claws AND be a Librarian, even with vague "ordering" of upgrades.

If you trade the two blood fists for the talons, then when you upgrade to a Librarian you replace all wargear with bloodfist and force weapon.

If you upgrade to Librarian first, you can't get blood talons because you have to trade both fists for talons - and you don't have them anymore, you have one fist and one force weapon.

scuddman wrote:I'm not really sure about this stuff about assault marines always being better.

If there is an objective in the back, then your assault weapons, furious charge, and extra attacks mean nothing. All the advantages of assault marines are essentially unused. Especially if you're facing a shooty army whose strategy is to try to contest instead of assault.

In that case, wouldn't it make more sense to have a tactical squad with a razorback?

Considering that 2 out of 3 missions are objectives, it seems very sensible to take at least 1 tactical squad.

Also, range is not to be underestimated. I understand that yes, razorbacks are the ranged shooting. With the fast rule, the razobacks can move and shoot. But if the razorback dies, you have 12" range. Razorbacks aren't hard to kill.

An assault squad puts out 27 attacks on the charge. Hits 13.5 times, and does 9 wounds. After saves, it'll be 3 wounds.

A tactical squad puts out 18 attacks on the charge. Does 9 hits, and does 6 wounds. After saves, it'll be 2 wounds.

Hmm...I'm underwhelmed. I think I'll keep my bolter and heavy weapon.

There is no difference between a tactical squad in a razorback and an assault squad in a razorback (no one can shoot out).. If thats what you're going to use it honestly doesnt matter because as you said the enemy is moving to "contest".. Again tho, my point is that you need 10 tactical marines to even take the apparently very useful heavy weapon and special weapon... Where do the other 5 go? A shooty army can easily kill 5 marines on an objective so that single long range shot wont mean a lot

On the other hand 6 assault marines can sit inside a -35pt razorback with a weapon such as a melta for killing contesting transports and then assault whats inside after wards where as tactical marines would be hard pressed to kill both the transport AND the people inside. That is a VERY common strategy, IE moving up a transport filled with a scoring unit on the last turns of the game to contest something

In order to hold objectives you need to be able to deal with people who get very close and while yes assault squads arent exactly elite troops.. they do however do that job better than 5 guys with bolters

Im not sold on razorback rush. I think 6 razorbacks with assault squads could be nasty, but 2 or 3 are a joke.

Fast rhinos are going to be the most effective.

Kirasu wrote:
There is no difference between a tactical squad in a razorback and an assault squad in a razorback (no one can shoot out).. If thats what you're going to use it honestly doesnt matter because as you said the enemy is moving to "contest".. Again tho, my point is that you need 10 tactical marines to even take the apparently very useful heavy weapon and special weapon... Where do the other 5 go? A shooty army can easily kill 5 marines on an objective so that single long range shot wont mean a lot

On the other hand 6 assault marines can sit inside a -35pt razorback with a weapon such as a melta for killing contesting transports and then assault whats inside after wards where as tactical marines would be hard pressed to kill both the transport AND the people inside. That is a VERY common strategy, IE moving up a transport filled with a scoring unit on the last turns of the game to contest something

In order to hold objectives you need to be able to deal with people who get very close and while yes assault squads arent exactly elite troops.. they do however do that job better than 5 guys with bolters

I think you're losing the perspective on how Tactical Marines operate inside a balanced force. I would strongly consider taking two full Tac squads in Razorbacks as well as two double flamer/infernus pistol Assault squads in Razorbacks. This gives you a total of 6 scoring units, with 6 long ranged shots to cover your approach up the table. That would be a roughly 1000 point core (estimating 210 for each assault squad and 300 for each tactical squad). Once you round out your armored threats with Furisos and Predators, most opponents will not find alot of firepower to dedicate to the two 5 man lascannons sitting on a home objective and that very modest point investment can pay huge dividends against mechanized lists.

This tactic has worked very well for me in the past with Codex: Space Marines, except with only Tacs and no Assault Marines. Since I have a Master of the Forge, Bolster Defenses generally means the lascannon support squads benefit from 3+ cover saves (2+ with Go to Ground), are usually out of range of most enemy weapons, and are thus often not considered worth targeting. I can't recall the last time that one of these squads has actually been killed by enemy fire.

However, Assault Squads in Razorbacks are not going to cost anywhere near 210. From what I hear, they cost more along the lines of 150, and that's with a 35-point weapon upgrade on the Razorback. While this is still more expensive than a 90-point lascannon support squad, the lascannon squad may not be cheap enough to make a difference.

Against any non-marine opponent rapid fire bolters is better then the extra attack, think genestellars or hormagaunts.

Fetterkey wrote:This tactic has worked very well for me in the past with Codex: Space Marines, except with only Tacs and no Assault Marines. Since I have a Master of the Forge, Bolster Defenses generally means the lascannon support squads benefit from 3+ cover saves (2+ with Go to Ground), are usually out of range of most enemy weapons, and are thus often not considered worth targeting. I can't recall the last time that one of these squads has actually been killed by enemy fire.

However, Assault Squads in Razorbacks are not going to cost anywhere near 210. From what I hear, they cost more along the lines of 150, and that's with a 35-point weapon upgrade on the Razorback. While this is still more expensive than a 90-point lascannon support squad, the lascannon squad may not be cheap enough to make a difference.

A fully tooled out assault squad that maximizes attacks comes in at 210, give or take 5 points. But thats with an Infernus Pistol in the squad and Infernus Pistol and Powerfist on the Sergeant. You can built an effective squad for much cheaper by going with just a meltagun and only the power first. But yes, that tactic has been awesome for me. I run four full tactical squads and a Thunderfire. It is very rare that I lose even half of my four shooty combat squads.

meh, zerks FTW

I may use the BA codex for my precious salamanders...

can't mix the SC tho

True, but i think the mass amounts of flame and melta capabilities in the blood angels codex more than make up for it

ohh yeah

CKO wrote:Against any non-marine opponent rapid fire bolters is better then the extra attack, think genestellars or hormagaunts.

think genestealer or gaunt with FNP.

G

but remember that the assault marines can fire their pistols plus what ever special weapons they have.

10 man squad with 2 flamers.

8 bolt pistol shots and 2 templates.

4 pistols hit and there are say 10 flamer hits.

2 pistol shots and 5 flamer hits wounds = 7 FNP tests for those gaunts = 3.5 dead gaunts


then they assault. 10 marines with the above weapons will get 29 attacks on the charge, 4 for the sergent, 25 for the rest of the marines (assuming 2 flamers)

they can put more hurt out then a tac squad easily

Well, there is the chance you kill too many and they rob the charge from you.
With tacticals you don't have this oppurtunity cost and can let loose a little more freely.

In addition, the rhino move makes their ranged reach a bit longer than the Assault Marines if the assault marines are looking to charge that round.

Fast scout baal pred with 2 heavy flamers/HB and inferno cannon?? Oh come on
Vindicator moving 12 and shooting?

I dont think the list is OP but it can be cheesebuilded very easily. People will find counters quickly.

BTW red wunz go fasta

I think we won't be any worse off than the SW codex. There are so many new shiny toys that you'll have 6 or 7 different build types come out of this and nobody will have the one army to rule them all.

So we have fast rhino chassis vehicles... so what? They cost 15 points more. If you take assault squads to get them cheaper, then you forfeit the tactical flexibility of the tactical squad's combat tactics. I don't know about other guys, but I do find it occasionally useful to put the heavy weapon half of the squad on a home objective and send the other half out to get some. Not really the same effect if you try to do it with an assault squad.

So we have deepstriking land raiders... so what? Better chance for a mishap, considering the size of a LR. At 250 points, that is something you don't want destroyed due to a single bad scatter.

Stormravens... so what? At AV12, it suffers from the same vulnerability as the Valkyrie. Shoot it with a bunch of S7+ weapons and it will plummet eventually.

Sanguinary Priests... so what? FNP isn't all that useful to marines with their 3+ armor save, unless you are fighting critters that have no AP2 or S8 weapons. Furious Charge is only beneficial if you GET the charge. Honestly I liked SW's counterattack USR better.

Dreads galore... so what? Its not like they can score, and they are rather expensive and slow for what they do. You'll need drop pods or storm ravens to get them stuck in properly, and that will make them even more costly.

Dante, Mephiston, etc...... so what? Most of them cost nearly as much as a Land Raider... and nearly all of them lack Eternal Warrior. (except the one guy whose stats are a tad lackluster for the cost). They'll die to instant death weapons and abilities.

Just trying to put it in perspective.

Therion wrote:

3 Devastater squads with Feel No Pain, 12 heavy weapons, and say add a 1 or 2 ablative marines to each squad. Devastaters with feel no pain, eat it long fangs.

For the same price the SW will bring 15 heavy weapons. Considering FNP doesn't work against missile launcher hits I'm pretty sure the Long Fangs draw the long stick in this one. Additionally I can't really see the 50 point investment being worth it since most ranged weapons the Devastators have to worry about don't allow FNP saves, and the Devastators don't really gain anything from having furious charge. I'd still go with the fast Predators.

Depends who you are fighting.

Long fangs have a big weakness: They don't have any ablative wounds. Every wound they take is either the loss of of a heavy weapon, or their leader who lets them split their fire. Every single failed armor or cover save will cripple the squad.

Long Fangs do take normal armor saves where FNP would help.
Fighting a mech IG list? Guess where the half dozen Chimeras are going to shoot their heavy bolters, multilasers? The squad inside probably has an autocannon. Mech IG can force a large volume of armor saves on long fangs, and long fangs are the juiciest targets for their high strength crap AP weapons.
Fighting Tyranids? They have a ton of firepower that can inflict standard armor saves on marines.
Fighting Orks? Guess where all the lootas are going to shoot their str7 ap4 deffguns.
Fighting Eldar? Good chance a squad of dire avengers will drop out of a wave serpent to blade storm the long fangs.

FNP also really helps if the BA squad is going to carry 4 plasma cannons. They will have 20% less firepower than long fangs, but it's a better balanced unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I think we won't be any worse off than the SW codex. There are so many new shiny toys that you'll have 6 or 7 different build types come out of this and nobody will have the one army to rule them all.

So we have fast rhino chassis vehicles... so what? They cost 15 points more. If you take assault squads to get them cheaper, then you forfeit the tactical flexibility of the tactical squad's combat tactics. I don't know about other guys, but I do find it occasionally useful to put the heavy weapon half of the squad on a home objective and send the other half out to get some. Not really the same effect if you try to do it with an assault squad.

So we have deepstriking land raiders... so what? Better chance for a mishap, considering the size of a LR. At 250 points, that is something you don't want destroyed due to a single bad scatter.

Stormravens... so what? At AV12, it suffers from the same vulnerability as the Valkyrie. Shoot it with a bunch of S7+ weapons and it will plummet eventually.

Sanguinary Priests... so what? FNP isn't all that useful to marines with their 3+ armor save, unless you are fighting critters that have no AP2 or S8 weapons. Furious Charge is only beneficial if you GET the charge. Honestly I liked SW's counterattack USR better.

Dreads galore... so what? Its not like they can score, and they are rather expensive and slow for what they do. You'll need drop pods or storm ravens to get them stuck in properly, and that will make them even more costly.

Dante, Mephiston, etc...... so what? Most of them cost nearly as much as a Land Raider... and nearly all of them lack Eternal Warrior. (except the one guy whose stats are a tad lackluster for the cost). They'll die to instant death weapons and abilities.

Just trying to put it in perspective.

Fast Rhinos are pretty expensive, and the cost does balance them.

Deep Striking Land raiders is a bad idea, good luck with the scatter. If they don't die from a mishap it will probably just get slagged by a melta gun.

Stormravens are expensive for AV12.

Dreads can't score, and none are venerable. BA dreads are nasty, but only at close range which makes them vulnerable to meltas.

Lots of armies have nasty special characters.

Sanguinary priests are a good deal for 50 points. If FNP is no big deal why do plague marines cost 23 points? Sanguinary priests are good, but they are not an I win button. They just mean blood angels really need to target units that can ignore FNP, and their opponent needs to make the best possible use of them.

@FoxPhoenix: You raise some good points . . . but for me these codices give a new way to play with the models I have. IDC if Mephiston is as much as a land raider, and librarian dreadnoughts are slow and expensive . . . I want 5 psykers on the table. I want variety. I want I want I want! But yeah, as a competitive codex the higher cost of things is really going to bring the "uber-marines" back down to Earth. Which I'm glad about, because I hate OP things . . . damn those fantasy Daemons =p

Oshova

5 psykers? go against some nids then, maybe eldar?

Eldar can have a maximum of two, I'm afraid... Unless you count Warlocks. Then you can have about twenty.

I wasn't hating on the codex, just for the record. I was simply pointing out that everybody's kneejerk "OMG OMG" reaction is a bit unnecessary.

2 Farssers.
20 Warlock councils.
3 Warlocks in elites (wraithguard).
6 Warlocks in troops (Guardians).
3 Warlocks in hvy support (Support Weapons).
Grand total of 34...though only 2 really matter .