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Can a hellcannon pivot and fire?

Without quoting the exact rules (as I'm on the way out the door), it says in the WoC FAQ that a hellcannon cannot move and fire. However, it says under the hellcannon entry that it fires just like a stone thrower (which can pivot and fire).

Given people's usual impression of it as a hybrid warmachine / monster and handlers (basically a monster with handlers that can shoot, a la a salamander) I had thought it could pivot and fire, but it was pointed out to me that it may not be explicitly given this ability anywhere.

It probably depends on the exact wording, which I will try to post up. I'm interested in pretty strict RAW here.

I had this come up at Ard Boyz yesterday. I don't remeber the exact wording of either, but I do recall what we decided was something along these lines. It fires like a stone thrower, but the pivot/shooting thing is a rule for warmachines. Since the Hellcannon is a monster it cannot thus pivot. That said this ruling was made without directly checking the cannon's rules as the person who was using it was a slow player who had already wasted thirty minutes of the round. Not stalling mind you, just a slow player who was having a bad day, as first round he got matched up against one of our best players who was rocking Kairos and large Bloodleetter blocks.

The Hellcannon fires as a Stone Thrower and pivoting seems like moving to me; since it doesn't say it moves as a stone thrower i'd say you don't get to pivot.

I don't know... I will need to look up the specifics of it. Certainly warmachines can pivot without counting as having moved...

Not a deal-breaker if it can't, but it certainly seems awkward!

Will post up the specific rules in question when I get the chance.

How much does it really need to pivot? You can shoot anything in your arc of sight, right? Seems you should be able to put it at at the end of your line at a 45 degree angle to your line and shoot pretty much anything you need to.
Never really thought too much about it though, so it will be good to know. Still haven't figured out how to model one for my army.

Wehrkind wrote:How much does it really need to pivot? You can shoot anything in your arc of sight, right? Seems you should be able to put it at at the end of your line at a 45 degree angle to your line and shoot pretty much anything you need to.
Never really thought too much about it though, so it will be good to know. Still haven't figured out how to model one for my army.

Pretty much this. Since the Hellcannon isn't a warmachine, it follows the standard rules for selecting a target while shooting. Those rules require that the target be partially within the forward arc, be in line of sight, and be in range. It's natural for players to want to turn the cannon to shoot at an angle because it looks like a cannon, however, the rules do not require this, and the FAQ makes this impossible. Another way of looking at this is to try to imagine the cannon as a Giant Archer, do you turn your archers to shoot at things? Does it matter that the bows aren't facing the enemy?

From a more RAW perspective:

The rules for pivoting on the spot are under "shooting with war machines", p.109, not under "movement" on the same page.
The pivoting thing is not listed under "firing a stone thrower" on p.114, though p.109 tells us that all war machines may do so when firing. While the Hellcannon is not a war machine, it does fire like one (a stone thrower).

From this, I'd say they can.

That was how our discussion went, Warpsolution.

The reason it needed to pivot is that I tend to run them forward... which I will still likely do, it'd just be a shame if I couldn't turn the dam thing to fire

I keep saying I'll post up the rules, and I will, but need to sleep first...

Rules under "Shooting with War Machines" will not affect the Hellcannon, as it is not a War Machine. It also doesn't say that it 'fires like a War Machine', it says it "fires like a stone thrower."

Infantry that moves like cavalry is still infantry, why is a monster that fires like a war machine suddenly a war machine?

A hellcannon acts as a single model though, so you can spin it freely during movement. You could probably still run it up then spin it a bit at the end of the movement to both see your eventual charge target and your current shooting target.

Of course, if you DO pivot during shooting you risk being out of LOS of your next charge target anyway, so it should be 6 to one, half dozen to the other, no? I suppose the only real difference is if your intended target gets vaporized in the magic phase or earlier in the shooting phase you could pivot to hit a new target that you couldn't otherwise see...

@Avatar: Here's my logical argument-

Stone Throwers are war machines. War machines can, as a part of firing, pivot on the spot. So Stone Throwers can, as a part of firing, pivot on the spot.

Hellcannons fire as Stone Throwers. Stone Throwers can, as a part of firing, pivot on the spot. So Hellcannons can, as a part of firing, pivot on the spot.

All of that said, Wehrkind found a much easier way to decide this.

For a Stone Thrower to be able to pivot, however, they must be classed as a War Machine, which the Hellcannon is not. The ability to pivot relies on having the War Machine class.

Much like having an primary add-on for a game that requires further secondary add-ons for it to work, removing one of the seconadry add-ons it relies on will cause the primary add-on the cease functioning; here we have the Primary (stone thrower) relying on a secondary (the War Machine unit type) in order to pivot; if this secondary is removed (like it is with the hellcannon) then the primary will no longer be able to pivot.

Still Wehrkind is right in that it can pivot regardless during movement, making the fact it can or cannot during shooting rather mute. Though like avatar 720 I'm still not convinced firing like a stone thower = pivoting during shooting.

Avatar 720 wrote:For a Stone Thrower to be able to pivot, however, they must be classed as a War Machine, which the Hellcannon is not. The ability to pivot relies on having the War Machine class.

Much like having an primary add-on for a game that requires further secondary add-ons for it to work, removing one of the seconadry add-ons it relies on will cause the primary add-on the cease functioning; here we have the Primary (stone thrower) relying on a secondary (the War Machine unit type) in order to pivot; if this secondary is removed (like it is with the hellcannon) then the primary will no longer be able to pivot.

So since it's not a warmachine, and therefore does not follow the rules for them, it can now move and shoot just as any unit with a shooting attack that does not have the move-or-shoot special rule?

Do you see the point I'm trying to make? It can't only follow some of the rules for shooting like a stone thrower. It either shoots like a stone thrower or it doesn't and the general rules for warmachines also describe, in part, how stone throwers work.

Infreak wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:For a Stone Thrower to be able to pivot, however, they must be classed as a War Machine, which the Hellcannon is not. The ability to pivot relies on having the War Machine class.

Much like having an primary add-on for a game that requires further secondary add-ons for it to work, removing one of the seconadry add-ons it relies on will cause the primary add-on the cease functioning; here we have the Primary (stone thrower) relying on a secondary (the War Machine unit type) in order to pivot; if this secondary is removed (like it is with the hellcannon) then the primary will no longer be able to pivot.

So since it's not a warmachine, and therefore does not follow the rules for them, it can now move and shoot just as any unit with a shooting attack that does not have the move-or-shoot special rule?

Do you see the point I'm trying to make? It can't only follow some of the rules for shooting like a stone thrower. It either shoots like a stone thrower or it doesn't and the general rules for warmachines also describe, in part, how stone throwers work.

Actually it can. When firing a normal Stone Thrower the rules are broken down into two distinct sections:

1. The "Shooting with War Machines" section on page 109.

2. The "Firing a Stone Thrower" section on page 114.


As the Hellcannon is NOT a warmachine (it is a Monster), we can ignore the section on page 109. (For clarity, this is the section where the free pivot is described.) We go straight to the "Firing a Stone Thrower" section on page 114:

"To fire a stone thrower, take the small round (3") template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside ..." etc. etc.

The first paragraph under "War Machines" on page 108 even says as much:

...For simplicity and sanity, we therefore divide a war machine's rules into two parts. The first part of rules pertains to the rules for the war machine troop type - essentially its chassis and crew - which apply to all war machines. The second parts consists of the rules for how each specific type war machine fires (and how it slaughters your foe.) [sic]

Basically, you can think of the "Free Pivot" not as part of firing, but as a special rule that pertains to War Machines. The rules for Firing a Stone Thrower cover how a "Stone Thrower" fires. Most "Stone Throwers" are war machines, but not all of them need be. Poisoned Wind Mortars also fire like Stone Throwers, for instance. (Granted, their rules are much more clearly defined than the Hellcannon's are...)

And your first question is rendered moot by the FAQ entry. Prior to that entry, I would have said "Yes" the Hellcannon could move and fire, as it wasn't listed as a "Move or Fire" weapon. This would be similar to weapons like the Beastmen Hunting Spear, or the Wood Elf Special Character (I think there's two actually, Orion and one of the Dragon Riding Sisters) who can do the same.

That's my thoughts, at least.

I forgot that was FAQ'd. I am not familiar with how plauge wind mortars work. I guess it depends on if the pivoting to face your target is considered a part of firing. I'm at work right now so I can't look it up right now. I had always considered pivoting a part of firing and not something that could be seperated.

I'll agree with Steamdragon and Avatar on every turn, but I'll say that the following seems as legit as what has been said. Stone Throwers have rules that allow them to fire in certain ways. Some of these rules come from being a Stone Thrower, and some come from being a war machine.
When the Hellcannon says it fires "as a Stone Thrower", you could easily claim that it follows all the rules that a Stone Thrower does when firing, regardless of troop type.

@Avatar: I'm not sure if that metaphor works out. A Hellcannon fires as a Stone Thrower- taking one of the aspects in which a Stone Thrower fires seems to be ignoring the rules of the Hellcannon.

@Steamdragon: I see what you're saying, and it makes sense. However, I think this all makes sense too. A Hellcannon is not a war machine, but a Stone Thrower is. A Stone Thrower uses the rules on p.109 when firing. Therefore, a Hellcannon uses those rules as if it were a Stone Thrower, which it is not.
I'm not sure if we can dismiss p.109 so easily; if it were part of movement, we could. But it ain't.

Does this make sense?

I'd love to agree with WarpSolution, but I'll have to think about it...

Wehrkind's argument unfortunately does not help the situation, since it being able to freely pivot while moving requires it to move, and thus not be able to fire that turn.

Uhm... hellcannons can move and shoot all day I think. They shoot as a stone thrower, but I don't know that it affects their ability to move. I might well be wrong though.

It was FAQ'd that it can't. I think it was probably a clarification because I looked at the warmachine section and it says all warmachines have move or shoot and slow to fire special rules.

Oh damn! Which FAQ is that? I must have missed it, or have an old FAQ, since I checked while I was posting :(

It's the most recent WoC FAQ, it's not pink but I do think it's a pretty new addition. On page 8 of this pdf:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490285a_FAQ_WarriorsofChaos_V1_3.pdf

"Q. Can the Hellcannon move and fire? (p66)
A. No."

(sadface) Not that it needs the boost so much, it just seems rather silly...

Oh hell... well that's what I get for searching for "Stone Thrower" and "War Machine"... I guess the thing to do is start it off so it's arc of sight covers most of the field, then hope for the best until it gets nuts and runs around :(

Warpsolution wrote:@Avatar: Here's my logical argument-

Stone Throwers are war machines. War machines can, as a part of firing, pivot on the spot. So Stone Throwers can, as a part of firing, pivot on the spot.

Hellcannons fire as Stone Throwers. Stone Throwers can, as a part of firing, pivot on the spot. So Hellcannons can, as a part of firing, pivot on the spot.

All of that said, Wehrkind found a much easier way to decide this.

I would agree with this. Doesn't solve the arguement by any means, but for the OP, if you're playing at my tournaments, at least you know what to expect.
I'll check it with some of the guys at GW, and take a look at the FAQ a bit more. Check with me closer to regionals if you're coming up for them.

Oh. Um. Nope. Never mind.