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I really don't understand people complaining about "invalidating" the old books. They give the rules away for free! This isn't a cash grab.

The only reason to buy the books is for the fluff and to have something pretty to put on a coffee table or shelf. And they still work for that just fine.

Lanlaorn wrote:
I really don't understand people complaining about "invalidating" the old books. They give the rules away for free! This isn't a cash grab.

The only reason to buy the books is for the fluff and to have something pretty to put on a coffee table or shelf. And they still work for that just fine.

Here's the thing: Corvus Belli's justified not including the Human Sphere and Campaign Paradiso to avoid invalidating the old books.
That was supposed to be what made all the problems with missing contents OK.
Then, it turns out that no, they are going to invalidate those books.

This gives us three options:
1- They were planning to do it from the start, and just wanted to sell more of the outdated books before announcing that they were now useless;
2- They just realized that those rules should have been updated too;
3- Their communication is so bad that even if they know what they are trying to do, no one else does.

The first option is dishonest, the second shows a complete lack of planning, since it was fairly obvious before N3 was even published that those rules needed to be updated.
The third option is an ongoing problem, that they have failed to address.
In all cases, this does not reflect well on Corvus Belli. Either they are lying about their plans, they have no idea what their plans are, or they don't care about informing their costumers.

I'm not actually affected by the invalidation of Human Sphere, since I bought years ago, but I don't need to be affected by it to see that, no matter what, Corvus Belli cannot be trusted regarding any future products.

I'm not even certain that the new Human Sphere book will include the Paradiso rules, no matter what they say in the teaser.
They should be included, but by not doing so, they can sell more of the current edition of Paradiso (first option), or they can just decide that those rules do not need to be updated (second option), or the teaser might be misleading (third option).

I find it extremely unlikely that they would feature the Tohaa in that trailer, and then not include an update of Paradiso in the new book.

The model profiles and rules will probably in there, along with some new content.
They can keep the Paradiso Campaign out. It can stand alone as a campaign book as those rules and fluff don't need to be updated to work properly.

mrondeau wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:
I really don't understand people complaining about "invalidating" the old books. They give the rules away for free! This isn't a cash grab.

The only reason to buy the books is for the fluff and to have something pretty to put on a coffee table or shelf. And they still work for that just fine.

Here's the thing: Corvus Belli's justified not including the Human Sphere and Campaign Paradiso to avoid invalidating the old books.
That was supposed to be what made all the problems with missing contents OK.
Then, it turns out that no, they are going to invalidate those books.

This gives us three options:
1- They were planning to do it from the start, and just wanted to sell more of the outdated books before announcing that they were now useless;
2- They just realized that those rules should have been updated too;
3- Their communication is so bad that even if they know what they are trying to do, no one else does.

The first option is dishonest, the second shows a complete lack of planning, since it was fairly obvious before N3 was even published that those rules needed to be updated.
The third option is an ongoing problem, that they have failed to address.
In all cases, this does not reflect well on Corvus Belli. Either they are lying about their plans, they have no idea what their plans are, or they don't care about informing their costumers.

I'm not actually affected by the invalidation of Human Sphere, since I bought years ago, but I don't need to be affected by it to see that, no matter what, Corvus Belli cannot be trusted regarding any future products.

I'm not even certain that the new Human Sphere book will include the Paradiso rules, no matter what they say in the teaser.
They should be included, but by not doing so, they can sell more of the current edition of Paradiso (first option), or they can just decide that those rules do not need to be updated (second option), or the teaser might be misleading (third option).

He get all that, but also get you never have to buy a book from CB the play the full complete game. That is what he doesn't get it, because it a bunch of crying because "I get new free rule and IF I WANT a new book for fluff."

Just because the choice to buy the books is optional, it doesn't make it okay that people would have just brought books that they're now redoing, because they thought they weren't being invalidated.

Noir wrote:

He get all that, but also get you never have to buy a book from CB the play the full complete game. That is what he doesn't get it, because it a bunch of crying because "I get new free rule and IF I WANT a new book for fluff."

Yes, buying them is not mandatory, although the PDF for HS and CP were missing until very recently, but people bought them based on false statements that they would not be invalidated.
This should not be hard to understand: people spent money to buy books that they would not have bought if they had not been mislead.

Fraudulent or misleading advertising is kind of a big deal, at least for me, even if it's not malicious.

ImAGeek wrote:Just because the choice to buy the books is optional, it doesn't make it okay that people would have just brought books that they're now redoing, because they thought they weren't being invalidated.

mrondeau wrote:

Noir wrote:

He get all that, but also get you never have to buy a book from CB the play the full complete game. That is what he doesn't get it, because it a bunch of crying because "I get new free rule and IF I WANT a new book for fluff."

Yes, buying them is not mandatory, although the PDF for HS and CP were missing until very recently, but people bought them based on false statements that they would not be invalidated.
This should not be hard to understand: people spent money to buy books that they would not have bought if they had not been mislead.

Fraudulent or misleading advertising is kind of a big deal, at least for me, even if it's not malicious.

And as I been pointing out since N3 they never said no rewrite of HS or C: P, they even said they like to do HS with new/added fluff. That the problem with the internet and wishlisting and wanting to hear one thing but nothing else, it is not the fault of CB.

Noir wrote:

And as I been pointing out since N3 they never said no rewrite of HS or C: P, they even said they like to do HS with new/added fluff. That the problem with the internet and wishlisting and wanting to hear one thing but nothing else, it is not the fault of CB.

So you've been pointing that out, have you?

Noir wrote:

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:
Now that we have HS & C: P addressed, I'm underwhelmed with the rollout of N3.

The rules themselves will be solid. However, it's going to be difficult to refer to on the spot with so many sources to reference.

I thought we were going to get revised HS & C: P rules instead of a list of tweaks to keep in mind. So we have four sources for Infinity rules: N3, HS, C: P & now FAQ for the last two

Hopefully CB will make a unified PDF in the future so there is one source, not four.

Thank all powerful Atheismo for the folks who maintain the Infinity Wiki. They have their work cut out for them.

But we been told since day one this was all they planned right now for HS and C. Hell I figured Link team fix was just going to be "replace LT Order to reform link with CT" and done. Plus the fluff and rules master would like to redue HS to being the fluff quality up to N3 and C level, I'll bet then they would take a big look at the rules them, of course if they did it would push AF back even more. So the choose was either focus on rewriting HS or focus on AF guess what they picked. Sure someone going to come in a say they could of done it all at once, to that "make you own game and lets see how well balanced and tactical it is and the fluff to go with it".

Please make up your mind. Either they told you "since day one" or they "never said" it. You can't have it both ways. You can't chastise people for wanting the HS rules included in N3 by saying that they didn't say they'd do it and then chastise other folks for not wanting a HS redo because they didn't say they wouldn't do it.

Noir wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:Just because the choice to buy the books is optional, it doesn't make it okay that people would have just brought books that they're now redoing, because they thought they weren't being invalidated.

mrondeau wrote:

Noir wrote:

He get all that, but also get you never have to buy a book from CB the play the full complete game. That is what he doesn't get it, because it a bunch of crying because "I get new free rule and IF I WANT a new book for fluff."

Yes, buying them is not mandatory, although the PDF for HS and CP were missing until very recently, but people bought them based on false statements that they would not be invalidated.
This should not be hard to understand: people spent money to buy books that they would not have bought if they had not been mislead.

Fraudulent or misleading advertising is kind of a big deal, at least for me, even if it's not malicious.

And as I been pointing out since N3 they never said no rewrite of HS or C: P, they even said they like to do HS with new/added fluff. That the problem with the internet and wishlisting and wanting to hear one thing but nothing else, it is not the fault of CB.

Except, of course, that the explanation for the missing parts of N3 was "we do not want to invalidate HS and CP."
Misleading communication, which includes relying on word of mouth and confusing "I talked to some players at a convention" for communication, is misleading.
If the only source of information is word of mouth, people are going to rely on word of mouth, and any misunderstandings this cause is Corvus Belli's responsibility.

For example, I only heard that "they even said they like to do HS with new/added fluff" from people defending Corvus Belli's decision to invalidate HS and CP.
Never heard it before the teaser.
Even that is word of mouth. Same certainty as what I heard before ("we don't want to invalidate the current edition of HS and CP, even if including the rules in N3 would be better").

Yeah, what they said or not isn't the point, the point is how unclear it was, because their communication is pretty poor (past telling us what's coming out each month). Unless you can afford to go to all the big conventions, of course. And then that trickles down to everyone else, and obviously things are gonna be lost in translation. But that's their responsibility.

This has obviously been in the works for a while. Because that's how these things work. I wouldn't have minded so much if they'd said 'we know we said we weren't going to invalidate HS and CP with the new rules, but actually they don't work as well together as we thought so we're going to redo them too' when they decided. But they didn't, they left it unclear until now. And no, it's not okay just because the rules are free.

I only got into Infinity a couple of months ago and I bought Human Sphere and Campaign Paradiso just last month. Am I upset I wasted that money, as a new version is apparently not fair away, sure a little bit but that's outweighed by the fact that hopefully the new book will actually be readable. HS in particular is a horrible read. And for a tabletop game that's been out for a few years there's not really a lot of books to buy anyway, and you don't really need to buy any I suppose. So yeah, looking forward to it!

Infinity has been out since 2005, so it's been around more than "a few years".

 warboss wrote:

Noir wrote:

And as I been pointing out since N3 they never said no rewrite of HS or C: P, they even said they like to do HS with new/added fluff. That the problem with the internet and wishlisting and wanting to hear one thing but nothing else, it is not the fault of CB.

So you've been pointing that out, have you?

Noir wrote:

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:
Now that we have HS & C: P addressed, I'm underwhelmed with the rollout of N3.

The rules themselves will be solid. However, it's going to be difficult to refer to on the spot with so many sources to reference.

I thought we were going to get revised HS & C: P rules instead of a list of tweaks to keep in mind. So we have four sources for Infinity rules: N3, HS, C: P & now FAQ for the last two

Hopefully CB will make a unified PDF in the future so there is one source, not four.

Thank all powerful Atheismo for the folks who maintain the Infinity Wiki. They have their work cut out for them.

But we been told since day one this was all they planned right now for HS and C. Hell I figured Link team fix was just going to be "replace LT Order to reform link with CT" and done. Plus the fluff and rules master would like to redue HS to being the fluff quality up to N3 and C level, I'll bet then they would take a big look at the rules them, of course if they did it would push AF back even more. So the choose was either focus on rewriting HS or focus on AF guess what they picked. Sure someone going to come in a say they could of done it all at once, to that "make you own game and lets see how well balanced and tactical it is and the fluff to go with it".

Please make up your mind. Either they told you "since day one" or they "never said" it. You can't have it both ways. You can't chastise people for wanting the HS rules included in N3 by saying that they didn't say they'd do it and then chastise other folks for not wanting a HS redo because they didn't say they wouldn't do it.

Seriously folks I think you expect them to hire a lawyer to lay it out item by item.
They NEVER said HS or CP would not see a revision after N3.
They said N3 was intended them to work side by side with the existing HS & CP as modular units. Just because those old books were not "invalidated" (whatever your glean from that word is your own story), does not mean they said they swore to never revise them.
They replaced the foundation. Now they've decided to replace the first floor of the building.

This is the price we're paying for the popularity of the game. As more people play the cracks in the existing system show. If a handful of people play your game it is ok if things aren't clear or rules get abused because they're clearly broken cheese.
I've been keeping an eye on the Batman Miniatures game. There are clearly factions that would be unfairly better there. Who cares? Its a fun little game without a huge tournament scene.
Infinity has grown to the point where CB must put out tight comprehensive fair rules. It is a good thing CB is slowing their expansion curve to address glaring inconsistencies and unclear interactions with this release. If people truly love the game, they'll stick with it through this. It's certainly less than GW ever did to its customer base.

This debate has moved past its time on the news & rumors feed. It's time to bring it elsewhere.

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

This debate has moved past its time on the news & rumors feed. It's time to bring it elsewhere.

HEY! Only Alparius is allowed to say "I want people to stop talking about this subject completely and utterly, so take it to The Dead Forum where all interesting discussions go to die"!

I get the saltiness of just having bought a book only for it to become immediately "obsolete" (even though it's apparently a year off) and I'm in the same boat as i just bought HS a few months ago, some time after N3 hit, but a wise man once said

 Kalamadea wrote:
All in all, I have a VERY hard time hating a company for releasing another version of book that they're going to give us all for free anyways, whether that was their original intention or if they're just making the best of the mess they made.

Maybe that's overly apologistic, but honestly, IT'S THERE FOR FREE! YOU CHOSE TO SPEND ACTUAL MONEY ON IT! THERE WAS NO NEED TO DO THAT BESIDES PERSONAL PREFERANCE!

*sigh* I'm better now

I mean, the old wiki works (and is SO missed! WTB new wiki!), as well or better than the old rulebooks that barely work with the N3 FAQ pdf. It sucks if you bought a book thinking it was still "good" (it isn't and wasn't the moment N3 hit). I wish they'd update the full campaign, because the missions are CLEARLY the basis for ITS, except you need very specific specialists and objectives. I don't mind specific objectives for narrative missions, it's actually pretty cool, but limited specialists is painful, we usually wind up using generic ITS specialist rules at a WIP -3 with the specified ones getting base WIP or WIP+3 depending on mission. Would be nice to have that official and balanced

Anyone have a release date for the US May releases? i need some Aquila Guard in my life.

Reading the actual blurb from the release (it was printed on BoW) it sounds like they are basically re-doing HS (bringing it in to line with N3 rules) and adding the rules for the Tohaa to it. Rather than making a new book which combines all of both HS and Paradiso (so presumably the campaign/experience bit from Paradiso would still be valid)

“The next edition of Infinity. Human Sphere will be a full colour compilation book that updates its rules set to Infinity N3, adding new rules, special skills, weapons and equipment. It will also have background and army lists of complete and expanded Sectorial Armies, including the Steel Phalanx of ALEPH and the Tohaa army list"

I really don't see what the big drama is about this. If you recently bought HS I doubt very much if the background is going to get a re-write. Just wait for the download to appear, print off some extra pages to stick in the book or take a biro/sharpie to the stat pages. Job done.

They NEVER said HS or CP would not see a revision after N3.

I don't recall they've said with clarity they would revise it either. When you need a scrying ball to decipher a meaning, the statement could usually be better presented unless it was intentionally cryptic.

It isn't the action that's the issue. It's the lack of communication, and how unclear they left the future of HS/CP.

 warboss wrote:

So what changed in the 6 months since you posted:

 Baiyuan wrote:
Wanted to chime in to mention that I'm convinced that Paradiso will be referred to in the N3-book. The N2-book also mentioned it as it is an important historical event in the time line of the human sphere. That being said, CB will not make the Campaign Paradiso-book obsolete by including more than a reference to the already published book's contents.
They have been so careful to communicate to their business partners that the other books will stay entirely valid purchases, they are not going to jeopardise that now.
Expect the core fluff plus a few words on the wider scope of events. The rest will be left to the existing other two books and the upcoming AF.

Good question, very little. My comment you quoted was regarding the N3 rule book and is still true. They didn't include HS and CP and still there is a bit of fluff about paradiso etc. in it. So exactly what I assumed has happened.

The part where I'm "towing the revised party line" (which I find unnecessarily snarky) is what looks to me like a change of mind on CB's side. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to assume that there really is such a thing as a "party line" and that the "party" has its "evil designs" which it kept hidden from us to exploit our sheeplike customer mentality.
If that's the case, let's just agree to disagree.
I'm not a fanboy, I think some of CB's decisions don't exactly smell like roses, but where you see schemes and party lines, I see a relatively small company in part failing at struggling to deal with its recent success/growth in a professional manner.
Nobody can deny that the "stretch marks" are showing, neither do I. Am I happy about it? No, it saddens me to see some of their poor decisions and misscommunicated ideas.

But I haven't lost trust in them. Call me hopelessly optimistic or naive, but where you see malevolence and greed, I see ambition, pressure, ill-preparedness and miscommunication. That there is so much extremely disparate speculation about what triggers some of the argueably poor decisions is clearly a consequence of CB's lack of community management (I'm not saying it could even be done in a way to make everyone happy, that's impossible thanks to the human/internet nature. Just look at computer game studios and their trouble with their respective fan bases.) and the simple fact, that on the internet (and as a matter of fact in every other aspect of life) everyone draws his own conclusions based on his hopes, wishes, fears and experiences. So combining lacking/absent community/information management with a normal internet community that contains every shade of psychological predisposition imaginable, is what gives us this endless discussion about things we can't know leaving us guessing from the perspective each one has been given by his experience in life.

The optimists, the pessimists, the frustrated, the happy people in utter denial, the depressed... let's all come out and play the guessing game, but let each one of us sell his assumptions as the truth and discredit any conclusion based on a different point of view than our very own.

I chalk this mainly up to very poor planning from CB. The free factor helps mitigate this, rather than being a perfect excuse. As bad planning on a free product can lead to problems just as much as any paid product when it comes to using the product. Likewise, for many, it wasn't a free product, and burning those who wish to support you the most is not a good plan.

Then, it's overzealous fanbase blaming other players for not seeing this poor planning as some kind of brilliant plan.

There's been real damage to the community and growth of the game from this though. We're near half a year from the start of this edition change, and only now are the much needed updates to old rules only being hinted at, rather than releasing.

And, most people will have armies where I'd wager that they have more stuff with rules outside of the core rulebook, which makes the core rulebook not so much a core rulebook, and especially not for $80 USD. I know of two new players alone who have literally asked me why there's missing rules from cool models they just bought, and seeing their enthusiasm deflate when I explain how to use them.

Thankfully, the quality of the sculpts have risen greatly to offset these issues. Their new art and sculpting pipeline is working well. Compared to earlier sculpts of dubious quality, they've got a line that's composed of all solid sculpts.

CB, and Infinity, will be fine in the long run, but this this edition change has been botched such that they've lost all the momentum they gained since announcing and releasing the much needed new edition. It should be doing fine with all the current players, and new players that get involved with dedicated groups. But for anyone looking to start up a new infinity scene, this transition is a joke.

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Noir wrote:

And as I been pointing out since N3 they never said no rewrite of HS or C: P, they even said they like to do HS with new/added fluff. That the problem with the internet and wishlisting and wanting to hear one thing but nothing else, it is not the fault of CB.

So you've been pointing that out, have you?

Noir wrote:

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:
Now that we have HS & C: P addressed, I'm underwhelmed with the rollout of N3.

The rules themselves will be solid. However, it's going to be difficult to refer to on the spot with so many sources to reference.

I thought we were going to get revised HS & C: P rules instead of a list of tweaks to keep in mind. So we have four sources for Infinity rules: N3, HS, C: P & now FAQ for the last two

Hopefully CB will make a unified PDF in the future so there is one source, not four.

Thank all powerful Atheismo for the folks who maintain the Infinity Wiki. They have their work cut out for them.

But we been told since day one this was all they planned right now for HS and C. Hell I figured Link team fix was just going to be "replace LT Order to reform link with CT" and done. Plus the fluff and rules master would like to redue HS to being the fluff quality up to N3 and C level, I'll bet then they would take a big look at the rules them, of course if they did it would push AF back even more. So the choose was either focus on rewriting HS or focus on AF guess what they picked. Sure someone going to come in a say they could of done it all at once, to that "make you own game and lets see how well balanced and tactical it is and the fluff to go with it".

Please make up your mind. Either they told you "since day one" or they "never said" it. You can't have it both ways. You can't chastise people for wanting the HS rules included in N3 by saying that they didn't say they'd do it and then chastise other folks for not wanting a HS redo because they didn't say they wouldn't do it.

Seriously folks I think you expect them to hire a lawyer to lay it out item by item.
They NEVER said HS or CP would not see a revision after N3.
They said N3 was intended them to work side by side with the existing HS & CP as modular units. Just because those old books were not "invalidated" (whatever your glean from that word is your own story), does not mean they said they swore to never revise them.
They replaced the foundation. Now they've decided to replace the first floor of the building.

This is the price we're paying for the popularity of the game. As more people play the cracks in the existing system show. If a handful of people play your game it is ok if things aren't clear or rules get abused because they're clearly broken cheese.
I've been keeping an eye on the Batman Miniatures game. There are clearly factions that would be unfairly better there. Who cares? Its a fun little game without a huge tournament scene.
Infinity has grown to the point where CB must put out tight comprehensive fair rules. It is a good thing CB is slowing their expansion curve to address glaring inconsistencies and unclear interactions with this release. If people truly love the game, they'll stick with it through this. It's certainly less than GW ever did to its customer base.

This debate has moved past its time on the news & rumors feed. It's time to bring it elsewhere.

Except they did say that HS and C wouldn't be invalidated. As much as I love Infinity, they've been, as some have pointed out, either dishonest or incompetent. I accepted the redoing of models, even though I had recently purchased the old ones. I also, grudgingly, accepted the removal of the Exrah models. But for them to say that HS and C;P were not going to be invalidated and have them turn around and release the "new" version is a bit much.

Stop complaining about the new book but complain about those two ugly minis instead:

 Sangarn wrote:
Stop complaining about the new book but complain about those two ugly minis instead:

Ummm..... wow. Those are the worse models they've released in years. Terribad...

Can't I complain about both?

Yeah they're terrible.

I'm not up to date on the latest fluff. Has Aleph been infected by some kind of virus that forces it's operatives to stick out their asses in entirely unnatural ways?

---Strange doublepost---

 JOHIRA wrote:
I'm not up to date on the latest fluff. Has Aleph been infected by some kind of virus that forces it's operatives to stick out their asses in entirely unnatural ways?

I certainly hope so - and that there's no cure!

Other than maybe wearing combat high heels?

I don't know I quite like both of them.

Wow, swing and a miss on this one. I didn't think those glasses would come out very well and it looks like I was right. These figures are Minuteman-tier bad.

Drakios looks fine. Not stunning, but he's not horrible. Though, there is a lot of package hang happening...

Scylla is not looking good. I don't mind the face/glasses at all, but that pose is so awkward, and the body shape seems off too. If they were going for "average human" body shape (which would be a little odd considering she's not supposed to be average or human) then it makes sense, but still seems very out of place in their range, especially within ALEPH.