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Ok I'm not sure if this has been asked in here already or not, I did a search and found nothing.

Between DE Wyches and GK Purifiers, does cleansing flame negate the wyches invulnerable save since it isn't classified as a close combat attack?

I don't have a GK codex and have only briefly gone over the cleansing flame rules but I hear that there are ways to use it more than once in the same combat turn is that true as well?

If both of these are true it would be pretty ridiculous and you would have to be slowed to assault purifiers lol.

Aglobalthreat wrote:

Between DE Wyches and GK Purifiers, does cleansing flame negate the wyches invulnerable save since it isn't classified as a close combat attack?

Does it happen in CC? Then yes they get the invulnerable save.

Aglobalthreat wrote:

I don't have a GK codex and have only briefly gone over the cleansing flame rules but I hear that there are ways to use it more than once in the same combat turn is that true as well?

If you have 2 units or a Character that can use it like Crowe, then yes!

It does not happen in close combat, just in the assault phase, affecting all models in units that are base-to-base with the clensing flame unit.

Wyches do not get to dodge, but armor and FNP work normally.

It does not happen in close combat, just in the assault phase, affecting all models in units that are base-to-base with the clensing flame unit.

Wyches do not get to dodge, but armor and FNP work normally.

Except for the fact that the last line of Cleansing Flame states that the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes. So yeah, they would get to take a CC based save.

Yeah I don't know I can see both sides of the argument and both seem valid, now as a Dark Eldar player I would rather it not ignore the invul. I really hope a FAQ is released soon that clears this up.

The rules specifically state they count as close combat wounds for all purposes. Case closed on this one sc

Ok one other thing to add..

Lady Malys, rules state that she is immune to the effects of psychic powers as is any unit she joins. Now since it is psychic power but counts as close combat attacks for all purposes does that mean it would effect her?

Cleansing Flame wouldn't work as it's still a psychic power. It wouldn't ever reach the point of causing the wounds that count as CC.

It's worded strangely. It says unsaved wounds, which means wounds that have already had their armor check and failed, thus meaning the Witches wouldn't get dodge because the psychic power isn't a close combat attack until after the armor check has been preformed.

"Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes."

The only reason that the line is there is so that wounds from Cleansing Flame count towards combat resolution. But it's still a Psychic power that is neither shooting or close combat until after wounds are allocated, thus counting towards combat resolution.

Kreedos wrote:It's worded strangely. It says unsaved wounds, which means wounds that have already had their armor check and failed, thus meaning the Witches wouldn't get dodge because the psychic power isn't a close combat attack until after the armor check has been preformed.

"Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes."

The only reason that the line is there is so that wounds from Cleansing Flame count towards combat resolution. But it's still a Psychic power that is neither shooting or close combat until after wounds are allocated, thus counting towards combat resolution.

its up for debate because of that but RAW they will get their dodge. There is a minor whole but its close enough.

The wording says "Before blows are struck" It happens BEFORE actual CC takes place, it just has the nice bonus of counting towards combat res. I would say No they do not get there invul.

Black Dragon wrote:The wording says "Before blows are struck" It happens BEFORE actual CC takes place, it just has the nice bonus of counting towards combat res. I would say No they do not get there invul.

Except that it happens after charges, meaning that the assault has begun, thus it is in "CC."

Black Dragon wrote:The wording says "Before blows are struck" It happens BEFORE actual CC takes place, it just has the nice bonus of counting towards combat res. I would say No they do not get there invul.

Read the whole wording again. It is after ALL assault moves AND defenders react. At this pooint you are most definitely in combat!

This is a great rule for not reading the entire thing. As it is in the codex:

"Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes" Unsaved wounds only occur after you have failed an armour save. The DEldar can't retroactively take the invun save after failing their armour save, creating the unsaved wound.

Most people will only post the "Wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes" omitting just that one word, changes the rule entirely

As it is written, they don't get their invun save as it happens in a magical phase after charges and defenders react, but before combat is initiated.

It's one for a FAQ for certain

If the wording said wounds caused then that would mean saved and unsaved wounds count which could lead to some really nasty combat resolution.

I would allow a Wych to take its 4+ save in CC, cleansing flame seems to have all the traits associated with being in CC.

Well why does it say "for all purposes"? I understand the whole unsaved wound thing but unless I'm forgetting something the only purpose it would serve is for combat resolution, why wouldn't they just say counts towards combat resolution instead?

Basically if it was worded as such I would believe that it is not a close combat attack "unsaved wounds caused by cleansing flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for combat resolution purposes"

The wording of "for all purposes" tends to make me think that it is counted as a close combat attack, since there are other attacks that happen in combat that do not state anything. For instance Prince Yriel "eye of wrath" a blast template that happens in close combat in lieu of his normal attacks yet it says nothing about it counting as having been caused in close combat for all purposes. Its just a blast template that happens in close combat.

p31 GKC

Cleansing Flame: The Purifers send forth the fire in there souls to consume the foe.(Fluff)

This power can be used during the Assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck. If the Psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of 4+. Armor saves can be taken as normal.

Once the effects of Cleansing Flame have been resolved (and any casualties removed), blows are struk as normal. Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purpose.(Rule)

I would guess that they do get there invul save.?.

Pied_Piper11 wrote:p31 GKC

Cleansing Flame: The Purifers send forth the fire in there souls to consume the foe.(Fluff)

This power can be used during the Assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck. If the Psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of 4+. Armor saves can be taken as normal.

Once the effects of Cleansing Flame have been resolved (and any casualties removed), blows are struk as normal. Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purpose.(Rule)

I would guess that they do get there invul save.?.

Yeah according to just reading that but I think what throws it off is how it is written in the Dark Eldar codex

p27

Dodge (4+): Wyches have a 4+ invulnerable saving throw against wounds caused by close combat attacks.

The debate is pretty much does cleansing flame count as a close combat attack.

By Raw Cleansing Flame is purely a psychic attack that happens to take place on engaged units just before the Close combat attacks are all made. It would not be subject to Dodge.

However by the same token we are given a vague time-line for when the power goes off, is it before or after "Who can fight" is determined?

I am sure the FAQ will clarify both of these(likely before "who can Fight" but yet allowing a dodge).

It is a Psychic Power that wounds them that happends in the assault phase. It is not a close combat attack. No rolls to hit were done. Only a to wound roll was made. I have changed my view of it to say they would not get there invul save.

Wow, I just found this cuz of the INAT thread, and I'd never even though about it til now. It seems completely OP that the CC only save arn't allowed. Unfortunately I'd have to agree that RAW says they don't get them. It'll be interesting to see what the FAQ ruling on this is.

I sure hope they answer it, I think it's a pretty damn good question myself!

I believe that the key words here are "All Purpose." All is definitive. not most or some but All. RAW here is RAI. If you dodge a wrench... you can dodge a dodge ball. Seriously bad example? why not? if you can dodge bolt pistols at close range, and dodge sword strikes, why couldn't you dodge a psychic fireball? Now don't get me wrong. I hope the FAQ comes out and states otherwise, but as it stands now I would have to concede the ivul save to my dark eldar playing scum.

I can see both points here but this seems like people are taking it the way it benefits them. Much like the Hot shot las gun with the First rank fire, second rank fire debate. If your IG sure you want it to work for HSLG's but you know damn well it wasn't intended to be used as such. if you read long and hard enough you could misconstrue (or however you spell it) damn near any rule.

But for now house rules will have to be made before the games begin and my house rules will reflect as such.

If you're saying RAI, these are Psychic flames that are burning someone alive, we run up to each other, before we clash, flames burn the witches. How are you going to dodge Psychic flames? What if it's not a Psychic fireball and instead burns the ground? It makes more sense that it burns in an area because every model is affected than just thinking they're shooting multiple fireballs.

I still have yet to see a person prove through RAW, and not omitting the phrase "Unsaved Wound" that the Witches will get their save. Even if it says for all purposes, Witches can not take their save retoactively, you can not take an armor save for a wound that is unsaved already, that's why it's an unsaved wound, you already took your armor check.

So even if it says for all purposes, it's still not a close combat attack until after saves are made, it's a Psychic attack, that happens before blows are struck and allocated after saves are thrown, not before.

And for the question why would they write the phrase "For all purposes"?

Well... Why do they have to FAQ every codex because of horrible wording?

I'm going to have to agree with Larotonda. All is definitive, and on a true or false test, the word All can make or break the question. I play Grey Knights and I would like to see the FAQ come change this, but as it stands, I'll be giving the DE's there invul. as much as i hate to admit it. Good show old top.

Personal attack removed by insaniak.

.

Kreedos wrote:If you're saying RAI, these are Psychic flames that are burning someone alive, we run up to each other, before we clash, flames burn the witches. How are you going to dodge Psychic flames? What if it's not a Psychic fireball and instead burns the ground? It makes more sense that it burns in an area because every model is affected than just thinking they're shooting multiple fireballs.

I still have yet to see a person prove through RAW, and not omitting the phrase "Unsaved Wound" that the Witches will get their save. Even if it says for all purposes, Witches can not take their save retoactively, you can not take an armor save for a wound that is unsaved already, that's why it's an unsaved wound, you already took your armor check.

So even if it says for all purposes, it's still not a close combat attack until after saves are made, it's a Psychic attack, that happens before blows are struck and allocated after saves are thrown, not before.

And for the question why would they write the phrase "For all purposes"?

Well... Why do they have to FAQ every codex because of horrible wording?

Ok, ground is burning... Jump. works in mortal kombat... the DE are supposed to be lithe, wiry little bastards who dance around all quick and gak, it's a plausable answer.

your still not going to get to ingnor the invul save at my place until the FAQ comes out. becuase you still havn't proven it to me that they dont. RAW or RAI. for all pourposes it's a CC attack. it's written that way with (in my IHO) to simplify the matter and was probably intended to quash this debate before it ever came up. Sure it's been misinturpreted but im taking it the way I am. No amount of griping about it is going to chnage that. Unless of course, someone else brings a new arguement to the table.

Sounds like an experienced player to me

Let's keep it civil, folks. Address the rules, not the poster.

Ok, ground is burning... Jump. works in mortal kombat... the DE are supposed to be lithe, wiry little bastards who dance around all quick and gak, it's a plausable answer.

Ok then, so why don't they get the invuln save to shooting as well? Why can't they dodge bullets? It works in Halo Reach; completely plausible answer.

The rule says that cleansing flame wounds only count as cc wounds for all intents and purposes when they are unsaved (after taking saves), prior to that, they are pys attacks that happen before cc. In this case, RAW does say they won't get the invuln.

I'm convinced now; I wanted them to get the saves, but it just doesn't look like they do