Grenades and ICs

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**puma713**

So, you can't use the search function right now, apparently, so I gotta ask the forum:

If an IC is armed with Defensive grenades, but the entire unit is not, what happens to the attacking unit?

Does it lose it's bonus charge attacks versus the entire unit? Does it lose them only if it directs it's attacks toward the IC?

Re-edit: I have since changed my opinion.

**Shadelkan**

TL;DR, assaulting unit loses the attacks towards the entire unit.

First of all, you cannot direct your assault towards an IC; yes, you can direct your attacks, but not the assault itself!

Secondly, page 49, it states that Independent Characters that have joined a unit are considered part of the unit. Since the RAW on defensive grenades is "a unit equipped with defensive grenades," and doesn't demand for all models to be equipped, the conclusion is obvious; the attackers lose the assault bonus.

**nosferatu1001**

Shadelkan - see above. Defensive grenades require you to be directing attac ks towards the unit, and the IC is a separate unit.

You're also missing page 49 - when you RESOL:VE attacks the IC is a SEPARATE unit

**Shadelkan**

It says nowhere under defensive grenades that the attackers need to direct their attacks (remember, this is very different to directing their assaults) for the defenders to be able to use defensive grenades. It says, attackers assaulting units equipped with defensive grenades; The IC is completely part of the unit.

And again, yes, you can resolve attacks against the IC, but when you assault, you assault the entire unit, not just the IC!

**Kevin949**

Yes, it says units, and one model out of a unit does not consist of an "entire unit", and since he IS an IC that has it he is the only one that would benefit from it since he IS considered his own unit in assaults except when resolution comes around.

**Shadelkan**

Page 49, If a unit that has been joined by an independent character assaults into close combat, the character assaults too, as it is a part of the unit.

^This does not say it is a seperate unit that the enemy can choose to target his assault towards. Yes, after the assault move has been made, and the attacks are being rolled, he can be targeted, but the enemy has to ASSAULT the whole unit he is part of, not just the IC.

RAW, under defensive grenades, it does not say the whole uniit must be equipped for the grenades to produce the same effect.

EDIT: to clarify, the quote I stated (page 49, if a [...]) is to show that the BRB considers an IC to be part of a unit he joins.

**Corrode**

I might be reading it wrong but my copy says:

"Defensive grenades -

.... Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades..."

Nothing about 'directing their attacks'.

**Ascalam**

The unit is equipped.

If anyone in the unit has them then there are some in the unit: The unit is equipped

Related: Tau- If a unit has a couple of drones and the unit has defensive grenades then that should mean that the drones (as part of the unit) reap the benefit.

I could be wrong. I have been before, but this seems the most likely meaning.

**puma713**

Corrode wrote:I might be reading it wrong but my copy says:

"Defensive grenades -

.... Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades..."

You're right. I misquoted. So, since the models are assaulting a unit with Defensive grenades (since the IC is a part of the unit), then no one gets bonuses?

**nosferatu1001**

However when you resolve the attacks, the IC is a separate unit - meaning only the models assaulting the IC would get penalised.

**Shadelkan**

nosferatu1001 wrote:However when you resolve the attacks, the IC is a separate unit - meaning only the models assaulting the IC would get penalised.

No. No. No...

You cannot specifically assault an IC when he is part of a squad, you must assault the squad as a whole. The rules for defensive grenades say that if a unit is equipped with DG, the enemy assaulting the unit loses their attack bonus. An IC is part of the unit for all intents and purposes, except when determining who you choose to aim your attacks (not your assault) towards. The rules for DG furthermore do not specify "the whole squad." As well, it doesn't say anywhere that when an IC with joins a squad without, that only the IC gains the benefits.

**nosferatu1001**

Units assault units, actually - it just so happens that some of those models will have assaulted an IC.

When you resolve attacks, those that have assaulted the IC will have lost their attacks, as at that point they are a separate unit.

**calypso2ts**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
When you resolve attacks, those that have assaulted the IC will have lost their attacks, as at that point they are a separate unit.

This is correct.

**youbedead**

calypso2ts wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
When you resolve attacks, those that have assaulted the IC will have lost their attacks, as at that point they are a separate unit.

This is correct.

No, the unit has contacted the IC in assault meaning the entire enemy unit is effected by the grenades

**nosferatu1001**

The enemy IC that is a separate UNIT in assault, meaning only the models that assaulted the IC are affected.

AS I pointed out: units assault units initially. Only when you look at wo ends up where can you determine which models have assaulted which unit.

**Shadelkan**

You are coming up with RAI, we're giving you the RAW. If you want to back up your claims, show me where it says that when an IC is part of a squad, only he benefits from his defensive grenades.

Because it says very clearly in the BRB, units equiped with defensive grenades negate bonus attacks, and that an IC is part of a unit for all purposes except when aiming attacks.

Just because you can aim the attacks at an IC, doesn't mean you can also lose bonus attacks, as it doesnt say "models attacking units with defensive grenades."

**youbedead**

nosferatu1001 wrote:The enemy IC that is a separate UNIT in assault, meaning only the models that assaulted the IC are affected.

AS I pointed out: units assault units initially. Only when you look at wo ends up where can you determine which models have assaulted which unit.

That is correct the models have assaulted the IC therefore the entire unit is effected by the defensive grenades. Models aren't effected by the grenade, entire units are

**Shadelkan**

youbedead wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:The enemy IC that is a separate UNIT in assault, meaning only the models that assaulted the IC are affected.

AS I pointed out: units assault units initially. Only when you look at wo ends up where can you determine which models have assaulted which unit.

That is correct the models have assaulted the IC therefore the entire unit is effected by the defensive grenades. Models aren't effected by the grenade, entire units are

I never thought of that, which also makes sense in RAW. But I don't believe an assaulting squad can therefore avoid losing their bonuses attacks by completely ignoring the IC.

**nosferatu1001**

Except if they are in base contact with the IC they CANNOT ignore the IC, unless you are also in btb with another model. Which is fairly unlikely...

I also did not come up with RAI, I cited RAW. You just ignored it.

**Shadelkan**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except if they are in base contact with the IC they CANNOT ignore the IC, unless you are also in btb with another model. Which is fairly unlikely...

I also did not come up with RAI, I cited RAW. You just ignored it.

You gave no page numbers that were relevant to the discussion, so how was it that you were citing RAW? You never said what was exactly written in the BRB, only your interpretation, so again, how was it that you citing RAW? And given that I actually checked each time you made a claim, and made a response against those claims, how was it that I ignored it?

**nosferatu1001**

Page 49, ICs are treated as separate units when resolving attacks.

How many attacks are you using? one less because your model is attacking a unit (the IC) with defensive grenades.

I mentioned this 3 times.

**puma713**

Does the recent FAQ change any opinions about this?

Games Workshop wrote:
Q: Does the entire unit need to be equipped with rad,
psyk-out and/or psychotroke grenades for their effects
to work or is just one model being equiped with them
enough? (p60)
A: One model in a unit is enough.

The psychotroke's especially have similar wording to defensive grenades.

**nosferatu1001**

Again you come down to "IC having grenades but not the others", giving you the same situation as above.

**Shadelkan**

puma713 wrote:Does the recent FAQ change any opinions about this?

nosferatu1001 wrote:PARAPHRASE: No

He doesn't get that assaulting and attacking are two different things.

**nosferatu1001**

Yes, yes I do.

Any rules you'd like to add to this discussion? Any acknowledgement of the inherent difference between defensive grenades and rad / psycho / psykout? No?

**Shadelkan**

No you obviously don't, because the IC only counts as a seperate unit when its being attacked, not assaulted.

I've said that enough times, but you don't seem to get it.

**nosferatu1001**

And at that point you are still assaulting. Otherwise many many attacks wouldnt function

You just dont get it, and arguing with you is utterly pointless.

**Lolcanoe**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 49, ICs are treated as separate units when resolving attacks.

resolving not assaulting

"Models assaulting units equipped with defensive grenades gain no Assault bonus attack." pg 36, emphasis mine

Models assaulting UNITS, not, Models assaulting models.

Typhus attached to some Beserkers is a UNIT equipped with Defensive grenades.

The unit is not divided until you go to the resolve combats stage, after the WHOLE UNIT has been assaulted, in which the defensive grenades have already been deployed, because the UNIT was assaulted.

**wallacethe5**

Sooo.... basicly if I give my space marine captian melta bombs, than join him with a tactical squad.... the tactical squad also get melta bombs?

**kenshin620**

wallacethe5 wrote:Sooo.... basicly if I give my space marine captian melta bombs, than join him with a tactical squad.... the tactical squad also get melta bombs?

No, only the captain has melta bombs