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Hi everyone,
I wrote this new armybook for Shadow Kin. They're basically ex-Empire intelligence, before they broke off and formed their own civilization. Although low in number, their skill and bravery in battle is unsurpassed by the masses of the Empire.

Please take a look at the attached PDF of the armybook (I created a PDF so different versions of WORD don't have any effect on the layout).

Feedback would be much appreciated!

As its downlading where do they live?

They live South West of Reikland, in the Grey Mountains. Their major stronghold is on the eastern side of the Pale Sisters, and overlooks the river which runs into the mountains. I'm thinking of typing up a few pages of history (e.g. location, major conflicts, famous heroes), and perhaps a timeline, and I'd certainly detail the time when they broke away from the Empire.

yeah man that'd be cool as well as how the Empire treats them now

Why does this exist?

It's like you want Dark Elves, but you don't want to use Dark Elves.

Why Cimmerian Cloaks?
Why Empire Intelligence(which doesn't exist, by the by and even if it did it would be an organization not large enough to support a population period) as the basis for the force?

None of this makes sense, and I hate to be a negative nelly but this is one of those ideas where it's best not done.

Kanluwen wrote:
It's like you want Dark Elves, but you don't want to use Dark Elves.

Why Cimmerian Cloaks?
Why Empire Intelligence(which doesn't exist, by the by and even if it did it would be an organization not large enough to support a population period) as the basis for the force?

None of this makes sense, and I hate to be a negative nelly but this is one of those ideas where it's best not done.

For the record, I collect Dark Elves, and love them, so that wipes out your first negative. Cimmerian Cloaks help the wearer to blend into his environment, hence various units have it, as they are intelligence and use stealth. Finally, what's the point in making a new army if everyone already knows what they're about? Where's the fun? Any hinted at armies in Warhammer have already been written up by other people, so I made my own. The Shadow Kin grew larger in semi-isolation, and aren't exposed to full-on wars, so they can support their population for an extended period, which is not to say that they won't eventually die out. They're a darker good army.

Kanluwen wrote:How dare you go against official canon?!

Boiled it down for those watching.

@Guardian Phoenix, keep up the good work mate. Just remember, you will face fluff bunnies and GW White Knights who will attempt to poo poo all over your effort and creativity. just remember, you are doing this for yourself and others who appreciate your efforts to expand the WFB world beyond what GW finds assists in paying larger dividends.

Take my Chaos Lizardmen thread. With some very constructive crit, we might actually have a legit workaround that satisfies my friend's modelling plans, and also will satisfy the main fluff bunnies who cannot accept that somewhere, in the entire world that Chaos found a way to corrupt a spawning... whether through impersonating/possessing a slaan or toherwise.

AvatarForm wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:How dare you go against official canon?!

Boiled it down for those watching.

Yeah...if you really want to "boil it down for those watching", boil it down correctly or keep your smartmouth commentary to yourself.

Kanluwen wrote:Why would you do this or think that it's a finished idea?

@Guardian Phoenix, keep up the good work mate. Just remember, you will face fluff bunnies and GW White Knights who will attempt to poo poo all over your effort and creativity. just remember, you are doing this for yourself and others who appreciate your efforts to expand the WFB world beyond what GW finds assists in paying larger dividends.

Yeah..."Atta Boy!" isn't generally my reaction to concepts that are mindboggling. If someone were to pitch an Imperial Intelligence army for 40k or a Kasrkin Tank Company I'd be giving them the same guff--and it's not for fluff reasons solely.

It just makes no sense with the explanations or the army list that we have right now.

Take my Chaos Lizardmen thread. With some very constructive crit, we might actually have a legit workaround that satisfies my friend's modelling plans, and also will satisfy the main fluff bunnies who cannot accept that somewhere, in the entire world that Chaos found a way to corrupt a spawning... whether through impersonating/possessing a slaan or otherwise.

There's actually been instances of this, except they usually are killed by the Skinks/Saurus guardians of the brood. It's not hard to imagine that there was an instance where the Skinks/Saurus were killed right as the brood hatched and fled into the wilderness or any number of random coincidences.

This, however, is one of those ideas where it doesn't make sense at two fundamental levels.
1) There is no such entity as "Empire Intelligence".
2) There is no feasible way that an entity such as "Empire Intelligence", even if it existed, was to have enough people to form the basis of an army fielding masses of troops.

An army made up of heroes or really powerful, really high point costed units? No objection there, provided you don't start adding monstrous creatures to it for no real reason.

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:For the record, I collect Dark Elves, and love them, so that wipes out your first negative.

It really doesn't, but okay. The point was that you wanted to play "Dark Elves but Not Dark Elves"--it's like the "Super Nice And Happy Dark Eldar" that crop up. The idea isn't a terrible one, but it requires a very fine balancing act--which you haven't hit yet.

Cimmerian Cloaks help the wearer to blend into his environment, hence various units have it, as they are intelligence and use stealth.

Why do Cimmerian Cloaks help the wearer to "blend into his environment"? How do they help the wearer blend into his environment, when all it does is give the effects of a Sea Dragon Cloak or White Lion Pelt?

Finally, what's the point in making a new army if everyone already knows what they're about? Where's the fun? Any hinted at armies in Warhammer have already been written up by other people, so I made my own.

You missed the point entirely. It's not a case of "You have to do this so that it is done by canon".

It's a case of "If you're going to take a concept like this, at least do it right and make it your own rather than just copy/paste an existing army book's values without any real thought given as to why you're doing it".

The Shadow Kin grew larger in semi-isolation, and aren't exposed to full-on wars, so they can support their population for an extended period, which is not to say that they won't eventually die out.

They would need something like a 100% population to militarization ratio in order to support any form of "army" with 8 point models.

You would also have to have the entirety of an entity like Empire Intelligence to 'go rogue' at once.
It's like your idea is the CIA breaking off and forming their own civilization--it would hardly be enough to fill a city on its own, much less field any kind of military given that the majority of the members of the agency are in analytical roles not combat or intelligence roles.

They're a darker good army.

And here we come to the crux of why the army concept was made.
It's not really to make something new and unique, it's to make a 'good' army out of the Dark Elf list. That's not bad, but it becomes really obvious when you look at the "Shadow Drake" unit entry.

Seriously, if you want to do something completely and utterly "unique" with this idea?
Scrap the army list, and start over. Don't put in monstrous creatures, don't put in huge blocks of infantry, don't put in anything that you see in most armies.

Start by looking at the Wood Elf army book and getting a feel for how their units are done. Go with a core unit that is equivalent to the Waywatchers, layer the special rules on thick and points cost them to match.
Any form of ex-intelligence agency, even in Warhammer's faux medieval setting, isn't going to be taking to the field in huge numbers. They're going to be waging guerilla wars, preparing the battlefield to their advantage with traps of all forms(if you can find it, the old Warhammer Skirmish booklet had a "Woodland Ambush" scenario for the Wood Elves where 7 Waywatchers would fight against an entire army. More often than not...my Wood Elves won) and using misdirection and constantly fading back before counterattacks can be made

kanluwen wrote:
Why do Cimmerian Cloaks help the wearer to "blend into his environment"? How do they help the wearer blend into his environment, when all it does is give the effects of a Sea Dragon Cloak or White Lion Pelt?

They don't give the same effects as a Sea Dragon Cloak or White Lion Pelt; read it again.

The point values are similar to relative stats from various armies, so that people can't complain about under/over pointed.

The units are similar so people can relate.

kanluwen wrote:
You would also have to have the entirety of an entity like Empire Intelligence to 'go rogue' at once.
It's like your idea is the CIA breaking off and forming their own civilization--it would hardly be enough to fill a city on its own, much less field any kind of military given that the majority of the members of the agency are in analytical roles not combat or intelligence roles.

Prime example of section of a race breaking off: Wood Elves, they formed their own civilisation in their preferred environment, where they have a sort of safe haven (in Shadow Kin's case, its the Grey Mountains). Don't you think they'd have had to change their way of life to maintain a colony? They'd have had to fight at one point or another. CIA have weapons training, and these guys do to, and in answer to them having analytical roles, the the answer is yes - why would I include them in the army list - doesn't mean they don't exist, though.

kanluwen wrote;
Scrap the army list, and start over. Don't put in monstrous creatures, don't put in huge blocks of infantry, don't put in anything that you see in most armies.

I wrote this list for me, I only have a vague idea of their history, my concerns right now are in the list, and whether its fair or not. That other stuff will be finalised later. What if their style of fighting changed in isolation, so they did use battle tactics with the exception that they have advanced recon? Monsters add flair to an army, and are always fun to use - tamed them in the mountains? They Drakes could be susseptable to a dominant willpower. Also, having an army that 'dissapears' in the new rules wouldn't work, it doesn't fit with the new rules, they'd be at a massive dissadvantage unless the rule was made unfair.

Maybe I would have written the list to be more stealthy, as was my original idea, but it just doesn't work in the new rules, Skirmishers get crushed these days.

If you have any more suggestions I'd really appreciate it if you showed a bit more concideration for me; mutual respect. Would you say it to my face? I'm not trying to be rude, honestly, but I don't let anyone treat me with disregard for my feelings, regardless of status. Age doesn't imply greater knowledge of etiquette - I'm 15.

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:

kanluwen wrote:
Why do Cimmerian Cloaks help the wearer to "blend into his environment"? How do they help the wearer blend into his environment, when all it does is give the effects of a Sea Dragon Cloak or White Lion Pelt?

They don't give the same effects as a Sea Dragon Cloak or White Lion Pelt; read it again.

You're right, they give an armor save. That's my bad and is why I need to keep my books handier.

The point values are similar to relative stats from various armies, so that people can't complain about under/over pointed.

The units are similar so people can relate.

But that's the crux of the matter, GP. The idea behind the army isn't one that lends itself to comparison with various armies.

kanluwen wrote:
You would also have to have the entirety of an entity like Empire Intelligence to 'go rogue' at once.
It's like your idea is the CIA breaking off and forming their own civilization--it would hardly be enough to fill a city on its own, much less field any kind of military given that the majority of the members of the agency are in analytical roles not combat or intelligence roles.

Prime example of section of a race breaking off: Wood Elves, they formed their own civilisation in their preferred environment, where they have a sort of safe haven (in Shadow Kin's case, its the Grey Mountains). Don't you think they'd have had to change their way of life to maintain a colony?

Ugh. This is where it's going to have to get a bit snippy, so bear with me.

The Wood Elves, forming their own civilisation in their preferred environment, weren't a single agency or regiment of High Elves who decided upon it.
The Wood Elves were all of the colonists in the Old World who didn't want to return to Ulthuan. That was all of the craftsmen, warriors, their families, etc.

They'd have had to fight at one point or another. CIA have weapons training, and these guys do to, and in answer to them having analytical roles, the the answer is yes - why would I include them in the army list - doesn't mean they don't exist, though.

Again, you're missing the point.
Most of the CIA will never fire their weapon, they've never been in combat, they'll never operate in the field, etc. The guys in the field strapping on body armor and kicking down doors already had military training in many cases, and aren't considered part of the CIA proper by the agency.

kanluwen wrote;
Scrap the army list, and start over. Don't put in monstrous creatures, don't put in huge blocks of infantry, don't put in anything that you see in most armies.

I wrote this list for me, I only have a vague idea of their history, my concerns right now are in the list, and whether its fair or not. That other stuff will be finalised later.

Who cares about fair?

Seriously--you won't be able to field this list in many cases, no matter how fair you or I or anyone else believe it is. Until GW makes it as a book or it somehow gets published in a format that a TO will accept--you're restricted to opponent's graces to use it.


So if you're going to create an army from scratch, do it right. Start with the fluff and go from there. Just like most counts-as armies, the better the concept at the core the more likely people are to let you use it--especially if you have some kind of unwieldy rules that they haven't seen before.

What if their style of fighting changed in isolation, so they did use battle tactics with the exception that they have advanced recon?

Why would they suddenly change from saboteurs, spies, and assassins...to line infantry? That's like going from a banker to Jason Bourne in a weekend.

Monsters add flair to an army, and are always fun to use - tamed them in the mountains? The Drakes could be susceptible to a dominant willpower.

Monsters add flair to an army, sure. But unique monsters add even more flair. Instead of a "Shadow Drake"(and frankly, adding "Shadow" to everything wasn't necessary. Hawks, Drakes, Unicorns, Pegasi, etc are fine as it is) why not have some kind of magically animated guardian creature?

Also, having an army that 'disappears' in the new rules wouldn't work, it doesn't fit with the new rules, they'd be at a massive disadvantage unless the rule was made unfair.

So make the rule unfair! You've got a solid concept at the center of what you want to do, which is stealthy ambushers and frontiersmen. Ditch the "throwing stars"(which the Empire doesn't use) and give them hand axes, swords, or any kind of hand weapon, and longbows as standard.

I'm guessing that you've read some Conan, with the Cimmerian reference--and if you want a better example of the 'ambusher and frontiersmen' concept I'd suggest reading the short story "Beyond the Black River".

Maybe I would have written the list to be more stealthy, as was my original idea, but it just doesn't work in the new rules, Skirmishers get crushed these days.

Who said anything about skirmishing?
Play dirty--have them be virtually unable to be caught. For your Special/Rare slots have things like Bolt Throwers with enchanted bolts that allow them to 'skip' through intervening terrain and pick targets off at range. Magical constructs that can be raised and activated at will, teleporting themselves around the battlefield and wreaking havoc while the Shadow Kin themselves(which quite frankly, I think you need to work on the name as well. Shadow Kin is...it's kind of cheesy and sounds more like the name of a Shade Clan or an Asrai Kindred) pick off important targets at range.

If you have any more suggestions I'd really appreciate it if you showed a bit more consideration for me; mutual respect. Would you say it to my face? I'm not trying to be rude, honestly, but I don't let anyone treat me with disregard for my feelings, regardless of status. Age doesn't imply greater knowledge of etiquette - I'm 15.

Age also shouldn't be used as a shield when you put your work out there to be critiqued. If you were to show up and hand me that army list and ask for comments and criticisms, I would in all likelihood give you the same statements I'm giving you right now.

You've clearly put a lot of work into this, and if you think I'm being mean for being mean's sake--I'm not. I'm doing this so you can have a unique force that you can eventually bring out as a finished concept that will really make someone who plays against it feel that they did two things, which are at the heart of any attempt of making your own custom army book.
1) They had fun. There's no way it will be accepted for tournaments, no matter how balanced you make it, so this is the most important factor. Warhammer isn't a one person game--your opponent is as much a part of your experience as you are.
2) They played against something they had never really seen before.

But I'm going to give you a piece of advice right here and now--if you ever write an army concept and think it's "perfect" or "just for me"--then don't post it on the Internet, especially not in Proposed Rules, because it really isn't "perfect" or "just for you" in that case.

kanluwen wrote:
You're right, they give an armor save. That's my bad and is why I need to keep my books handier.

They actually mean the enemy suffer -1 when shooting at them (p5).

I can see what you're saying about having a unique, army, and would love to have that, but no-one would verse it.

kanluwen wrote:
Most of the CIA will never fire their weapon, they've never been in combat, they'll never operate in the field

They'd have had to militarise more to survive on their own. The High Elves (although a MUCH larger civilisation) ended up militarising almost all of their male population so that they could defend themselves against the Dark Elves; in a way these guys did the same: they militarised to survive.

kanluwen wrote:
Why would they suddenly change from saboteurs, spies, and assassins...to line infantry? That's like going from a banker to Jason Bourne in a weekend.

Sabateurs are actually a good idea for a unit . . .
I wouldn't quite go as far as Banker to Jason Bourne (who is epic), but point taken.

As sad as it is to admit it, you have made many points, backed by reasoning, and I've been humbled.

Conan? Maybe nieve, but I'm not entirely sure who that is . . . is that Conan the Barbarian? I've heard of him, but am pretty unsure what he's about. I used Cimmerian cos its another word for Shadow, or Dark.

kanlwen wrote:
Who said anything about skirmishing?
Play dirty--have them be virtually unable to be caught. For your Special/Rare slots have things like Bolt Throwers with enchanted bolts that allow them to 'skip' through intervening terrain and pick targets off at range. Magical constructs that can be raised and activated at will, teleporting themselves around the battlefield and wreaking havoc while the Shadow Kin themselves(which quite frankly, I think you need to work on the name as well. Shadow Kin is...it's kind of cheesy and sounds more like the name of a Shade Clan or an Asrai Kindred) pick off important targets at range.

Would you mind giving some examples of rules I could include? Same goes for those animated monsters you were talking about.

Your first post said that you'd have no objection to having expensive elite troops; I did originally have that. Shadow Guard had WS5, I5, A2, and even had M5. Also, originally Dodge could be used in any instance, not just combat, so they dodge arrows, spells ect. In fact Dodge originally had a Dodge Chart, so you'd get a different save based on comparitive Initiative values (the chart was very similar to the 'to Wound' chart, e.g. I5 on I4 meant you got a 3+ Dodge Save.

kanluwen wrote:
Ditch the "throwing stars"(which the Empire doesn't use) and give them hand axes, swords, or any kind of hand weapon, and longbows as standard.

I want them to be kind of more Ninja like, but in a European sort of way . . . sounds a bit wierd, I know.

I really LOVE the idea of a hoard of enemies charging at the Shadow Kin, and the Shadow Kin just . . . owning them! Star Wars: The Force Unleashed 2 - E3 2010: Betrayal Debut Cinematic Trailer | HD is pretty much how I want them to fight, but Assassins Creed 3 Revelations | OFFICIAL E3 teaser trailer (2011) Woodkid is possible even better. in fact thats probably perfect . . . (underlined section, Copy/Paste into YouTube and it comes up). Army of Ezio's, woohoo!

I wasn't trying to use my age as a shield, I was saying that being older doesn't mean that you know how to be more conciderate. Looking at it in hind sight, sorry man. I was having a bitch just cos you told me your oppinion. Again, sorry

It's no problem.

It's your idea that you've spent time working on and investing in, you're going to be defensive about it.

I can see what you're saying about having a unique, army, and would love to have that, but no-one would verse it.

No one will go against homebrewed army books in many cases anyways.

They'd have had to militarise more to survive on their own. The High Elves (although a MUCH larger civilisation) ended up militarising almost all of their male population so that they could defend themselves against the Dark Elves; in a way these guys did the same: they militarised to survive.

With the High Elf/Dark Elf thing...there was a reason for that.
The "Dark Elves", were pretty much exclusively from a region of Ulthuan known for being warlike. Not only that...they also provided the majority of the military for Ulthuan.
When Nagarythe declared itself for Malekith, it took a HUGE chunk of the Asur's standing army with it.

And when I say Conan, yes I mean Conan the Cimmerian(which, incidentally, refers to 'dark moods', not darkness proper...but the Cimmerians were a classical myth of a people living in a land of perpetual darkness). "Beyond the Black River" is one of the few Conan books you can find...that actually doesn't focus on Conan. It's about a frontier scout who is part of a raid against the Picts, and pretty much describes exactly what you're wanting. European 'ninja' is going to be a hard one to get right though.

I've got no real examples, but that's mostly because I've not thought too much on this subject.

Mmmm . . . maybe European Ninja wasn't the best way to describe it. Theoretically, could having a fighting style like that shown in Assassins Creed: Revelations work for an army?

Honestly I didn't know that Conan went by both 'the Barbarian' and 'the Cimmerian'. You learn something new every day.

As for the definition for Cimmerian . . . damn Thesaurus.com

Conan was referred to by people as "The Barbarian", but he called himself "The Cimmerian" because he hails from the land of Cimmeria.

I don't know about Ezio's fighting style being doable for an army, but maybe lots of high powered skirmishing infantry would be doable.

Could I perhaps introduce a skill/trait system, something like kindreds? E.g. one gives the character WS8 and +1A, another means that you may start the game in an enemy unit, another gives you M6, WS9, BS9, I9 and +2A, but you cannot join units (but he'd probably need some sort of infiltrating/concealing to keep him alive). So basically they help different aspects of your character. I think an improved dodge which can be taken against not just combat would be pretty useful too, but this would probably only work on his own (its pretty hard to dart out of the way of an arrow when someones in the way). Different costs would be associated, obviously, but I want a fun list. Like you said, if no-ones going to verse it anyway, why not have fun with it? Make some aspects (e.g. deployment, characters) really good.

There you go, now you're thinkin'.

You know what, i would love to play against this, it would be a break from all the fluff/ GW white knigts plauging my gaming sceene, and good work. Kepp it up, looking forwards to more fluff

Trondheim wrote:You know what, i would love to play against this, it would be a break from all the fluff/ GW white knights plaguing my gaming scene, and good work.

It's like you took AvatarForm's post as a basis to go from, without actually having any clue what any of those things mean.

Interesting concept, but I'd hike the points costs for most of the units at least a bit if only because people are more likely to allow you to play a slightly underpowered army than a slightly overpowered army.

Fluff-wise, dropping the 'Empire Intelligence' bit would probably appease some of the more conservative students of backstory; keeping with the Assassin's Creed angle you could declare these an army of Tilean/Arabyan mercenaries operating out of hidden fortresses in the southern reaches of the Black Mountains, down past Karak Izor in territory disputed between the Tileans and the Border Princes (maybe give them a more northerly fortress that's got diplomatic ties to the Wood Elves to explain the cloaks); their position in the center of an ongoing conflict probably allows them to command enormous prices from either side for assassinations which could lead to more unit champions having magic item allowances than in most armies. These are places that have appeared on the world map but haven't been fleshed out in backstory or given an army book, you can make up quite a lot of random stuff without stepping on anyone's toes.

Also, I'd use the D&D 3.5 black dragon instead of the blue dragon as an icon, it'd fit the theme somewhat better.

AnomanderRake wrote:Fluff-wise, dropping the 'Empire Intelligence' bit would probably appease some of the more conservative students of backstory

Yah. You got to remember what Army Books represent: armies. The ability to put together thousands of different configurations to conceivably fight across the planet. What is the CIA, probably the biggest intel org in the world, compared to like...the Dutch military? Sure, they can spy the hell out of their offices, but fat lot of good that will do when those angry Dutch drive up in tanks. (And a quick wiki search shows that the CIA is roughly 1/3 the size of the Dutch military but the US is like 18 times the size of the Netherlands.) You can make the military or special forces a huge player, think USSR or such, but for a country to exist it needs agriculture, business, trade, people who do stuff besides kill, etc.

I think just about anyone in the fantasy realm past mid-1920's is going to associate Cimmerian with Conan.

AnomanderRake you have some great ideas for background, thank you . I really like the idea of hire-able assassins; it's not truly evil, it's a way to make money. Also it'd explain why they're still alive on their own - no-one wants to kill them, as they're really useful allies.

DukeRustfield in the light of AnomanderRake's ideas for backstory, size doesn't seem as important any more - there's not much direct conflict with them if they're being hired. Thanks for the confirmation that the intelligence bit doesn't fit in a war scenario, though.

Now, as Kanluwen pointed out, the name is a bit cheesy. I'd really appreciate some ideas for an army of Tilean/Arabyan hire-able assassins.

I think the whole 'shadow' thing is a tiny bit over done.....
Nearly every unit has shadow in its name.

That's true, but this thread has drawn the the conclusion that this army book is a paving stone to make a more unique and diverse list, based around hire-able Tilean/Arabyan mercenary assassins. Therefore the repetition can easily be fixed with the addition of an entirely new culture, with many new names now available. Thanks for your input.