Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey, everyone.

I have a question - how do most Warmachine players feel about alternate models in game?

Take, for example, Captain Damiano. The guy like Steelheads, likes them quite a lot, in fact. The problem with this is that, while 20 steelhead Halberdiers are cheap in-game, they are much more expensive in cash.

That's where the alternate models come in. I was thinking Warlord Game's ECW figures, mostly the Parlimentary Infantry and Cavalry, which could all do nice as Steelhead halberdiers, riflemen, and cavalry.

Thoughts? Objections?

It's the same as all other miniature wargames-- It needs to be easily recognizable as the proxied unit. Other than that it's purely based on your own personal taste.

Outside of tournaments of course.

Players? I imagine in a pick-up game most would have no problem with conversions/replacement models as long as they're recognizable, etc.

In tournaments, PP has a fairly strict (anti)conversion policy, which the TO may or may not uphold to the letter.

You're going to have some trouble using the warlord games figs, I'm not opposed to proxies/conversions, etc. but the scale difference is way too big...

It's okay for unit but alternative jacks is a no-no for me as jacks aren't very distinctive as without the weapon arms they mostly look the same so alternative jacks often lead to confusion

as for unit's thats fine as some of privateer's units are really expensive for what they are.

PP"s conversion policy is no more strict than GW's really. I've yet to see it enforced at all strongly either, but I've not been to a PP run event yet.

chaos0xomega wrote:You're going to have some trouble using the warlord games figs, I'm not opposed to proxies/conversions, etc. but the scale difference is way too big...

Whats the scale on the warlord games' figs? Will it matter too much because of the whole this type of base takes up this much space thing?

Base sizes are very codified in Warmachine/Hordes. A small-based model is 30mm, a medium based is 40mm, a large is 50mm, and a huge is 120mm. No exceptions. A lot of rules, such as line of sight, power attacks, and assumed sizes of various status effects all are affected by base size and so having the right ones is important.

As noted aboe, also, proxying is strict. Models need to be easily recognizable for what htey are. Outright switching models from another line may be okay in casual play (if your opponent agrees) but is prohibited in organized play. Some conversions are fine (there's turning Extrme Juggernaughts into Behemoths, for instnace) but again, using another line's models as-ifs is not really allowed and I have never seen it allowed in a tournament.

And stuff.

If it's the right base size and the right weapons (halberds for the halberdiers, axes and pistols/blunderbusses for the cavalry, rifles and shortswords for the riflemen, in the above example), I'd definitely allow it, and the circles I run in would, but I'd check with any tourney organizers before using them in an unofficial tournament and assume they wouldn't work in an official one

Alfndrate wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:You're going to have some trouble using the warlord games figs, I'm not opposed to proxies/conversions, etc. but the scale difference is way too big...

Whats the scale on the warlord games' figs? Will it matter too much because of the whole this type of base takes up this much space thing?

It won't matter for gameplay purposes if its the correct base, but 25mm scale minis are going to look ridiculously tiny compared to 30-32mm heroically scaled minis. We're talking TINY.

Yeah, about 28 is the smallest you can get before things go from smallish to tiny.

chaos0xomega wrote:It won't matter for gameplay purposes if its the correct base, but 25mm scale minis are going to look ridiculously tiny compared to 30-32mm heroically scaled minis. We're talking TINY.

Actually, base size is a codified thing in WM/H. THey ahve exact sizes, and things get wonky with things like predicted results of AOEs or some spell effects when different sizes are used. I would greatly suggest at least getting that right if you allow for substituting.

And as also noted, don't expect official tournamentst to allow such substitutions.

ANd stuff.

Yeah, thats kinda what I said (in regards to bases)...

wtf chaos?

in gameplay, basesizes are vital

Reach and Thresher on a Medium Based model vs Reach Thresher on a Large Based Model is a big differemce

@Baker, reread the post. He says as long as the base size is correct, it wont matter for gameplay. Everything after that is referring to the scale of minis on the base which don't really impact gameplay.

Well to my understanding.

infinite_array wrote:Hey, everyone.

I have a question - how do most Warmachine players feel about alternate models in game?

Take, for example, Captain Damiano. The guy like Steelheads, likes them quite a lot, in fact. The problem with this is that, while 20 steelhead Halberdiers are cheap in-game, they are much more expensive in cash.

That's where the alternate models come in. I was thinking Warlord Game's ECW figures, mostly the Parlimentary Infantry and Cavalry, which could all do nice as Steelhead halberdiers, riflemen, and cavalry.

Thoughts? Objections?

Just depends on where you want to play with them.

Local stuff is whatever you and your opponent can agree on. I saw a very
cool Ogrun Mercs made from...GW Ogres. As has been stated, just make
sure to base them properly

However, if the event is an official event or a convention event, then you're
going to need official models.

gicks30 wrote:@Baker, reread the post. He says as long as the base size is correct, it wont matter for gameplay. Everything after that is referring to the scale of minis on the base which don't really impact gameplay.

Well to my understanding.

this. People really got to read.

@chaos

no...you have to learn to watch what you write

"It won't matter for gameplay purposes if its the correct base" is confusing and ambiguous

what you wanted to say was:

"It won't matter for gameplay purposes AS LONG AS (its on) the correct base"

Ah, i see where the problem lies, fair point... but I speak american english, so get used to it

chaos0xomega wrote:Ah, i see where the problem lies, fair point... but I speak american english, so get used to it

And it's horribly ambiguous in American English as well.

I didn't think it was too hard to follow. There should have been a period or something to divide the thoughts, but it made sense, considering the latter thought referred to measurements that weren't all base sizes.

Yeah, it needed a comma or something. I am a native US English speaker as well, I read it as if the "doesn't matter" was negating the later clause.

Note I'm also a linguist, so I nitpick that sorta thing. <_<

And stuff.

Greetings. I would rather necro this thread rather than start another.

New Question:

Do we have a list of manufacturers of models designed to be compatible with Warmachine & Hordes?

PP miniatures are even more expensive that GW and the game is increasing in popularity, so I am surprised to find that here in 2014 there are still no alternate manufacturers that I could find. Especially post Chapterhouse court case.
I wonder if there is anyone doing 'Steampunk Russians' or 'Steampunk Undead' or 'Steampunk Fundamentalists', or the other guys.

As I cannot find any I was wondering that its about time we started to gather a database of compatible miniatures for this game.

i couldn't give a monkeys about PP policy on non-PP miniatures, but I am not looking for links to recasts and illegal bootleg, its not fair to propogate that stuff here. Please add only alternate compatible models similar to what Chapterhouse, and similar companies produce for 40K.

 Orlanth wrote:
Do we have a list of manufacturers of models designed to be compatible with Warmachine & Hordes?

No.

 Orlanth wrote:
As I cannot find any I was wondering that its about time we started to gather a database of compatible miniatures for this game.

Agreed.

My Trollkin Bloodgorgers are made from GW Black Orcs with Kroot heads. 2nd hand GW models can often be cheaper than PP's and can be converted to fit with a little imagination.

PP has done a good job of making models without easy equivalents (besides maybe the Gatormen posse and Nyss Hunters).

That said, I don't imagine there is a lot of call for secondary market models as the competitive side of the game is the largest part. Seeing as they need actual PP models to compete in sanctioned events, the lack of alternatives is understandable.

The official Steamroller policy is that proxys are not allowed AND that conversions must contain at least 50% of the original model.

TOs are given authority to follow this or not as they desire.

The biggest reason for this rather strict policy is model identification. Its unfair for your opponent to not be able to tell what your guys are supposed to be. If he thinks they're something else, it gives you an unfair advantage. Especially in a game as fast paced as Warmachine and with a fair amount of rules you need to remember. I shouldn't have to be further burdened with remembering what your proxy/counts-as models are rules-wise.

Sure, your particular case might not cause confusion, but there are others that would. And thus its better to err on the side of being too strict than allowing some and not allowing others.

But TOs have final say on what is and isn't allowed, they just have a strict fall back if they are undecided.

GW could claim model identification also. They do as they also insist on WYSIWYG. GW don't allow other manufacturer's models in their tourney system

I am just surprised that I cannot find any manufacturers. I did a search on Google for 'Warmachine proxy miniature' and this thread came up second, hence posting here.

Its an under-reported issue IMHO.

 Orlanth wrote:
GW don't allow other manufacturer's models in their tourney system

Which is a moot point since GW no longer has a tournament system, or at least one of any note.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
GW don't allow other manufacturer's models in their tourney system

Which is a moot point since GW no longer has a tournament system, or at least one of any note.

Yeah -- this assumes "GW" is actually at my tournament.

It's kind of funny reading this thread, as it occurs to me that PP has undercut secondary competition by providing a good tournament circuit that people want to play in.

@ OP - the rules for conversions and proxying in Warmachine are actually pretty strict. As others have said, in a friendly game you can do whatever is cool with you opponent, but in an event or tournament you're expected to have the right looking unit, with the right weapons.

I personally think that this is a little to the detriment to the hobby side of WM; at NOVA WM shared a space with WHFB, and the Fantasy armies had TONS of heavily converted armies, most of which were easy to identify, and the WM tables were all pretty standard. It is too bad, because it's a crime that the Stormhammer Brigade wouldn't be tournament legal: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?98-Stormhammer-the-Assault-on-Sul).

Also: the size gap between Warlord games and WM is pretty noticeable. Gamewise it won't make a difference if you use the correct sized base, but if the rest of your army is PP it will look weird. (I noticed this size difference as I was swapping some Bolt Action bits over to my Trenchers.)

I also think that, since PP models don't come with many extra bits, it's kinda hard to "steampunk up" other models to make them look appropriate.

Personally, I think it's probably worth it to wait for Miniatures Market or someone to make a sale, unless you really love the Warlord models, just to save yourself the hassle if someone raises a fuss.

Indeed. PP has done a good job of making sure they don't have third party modelers scootching in by making sure they have an active presence in competitive arenas.

Normally, I'd not appreciate the lack of modeling freedom, but I can forgive it because of the great community support they give.

And actually the Stormhammer Brigade is tournament legal. Each model is at least 50% the original model its representing(remember they're Khador, not Cygnar)