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2011/02/20 21:32:42
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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gendoikari87 wrote:
that's rules lawyering at it's lowest though even if you do have a point
It's rules lawyering to intepret the rules exactly as they are written? Is it not *cheating* to try and do something a rule isn't allowing you to do?
Accusations can be bandied about all day long, stick to arguing the points instead of ad-hominem attacks.
and I will laugh when the faq comes out and says your wrong.
That's...great.
I hope I am wrong. I hope its changed in the final version. I don't like the way its written. However that doesn't change the way the the rule works currently from the PDF.
the intention is OBVIOUSLY to make an all =][= not something you can do if they don't take up a slot.
This wouldn't exactly be the first time GW has done something like that.
in either case the faq will prove you wrong or the rule will be re written so it's not worth arguing over.
Given how long FAQ's take to come out, how they quite often don't address exactly these sorts of things, and how you may have to deal with it in the meantime, it may be worth arguing over.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/20 21:34:22
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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2011/02/20 21:38:48
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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not really, they've been getting faq's out at a good click lately, and its probably already been changed. I really wouldn't be surprised to learn that GW leaked it themselves to generate discussion on potentially problematic rules and refine it.
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2011/02/20 21:53:03
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle
Alabama
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Vaktathi wrote:gendoikari87 wrote:
that's rules lawyering at it's lowest though even if you do have a point
It's rules lawyering to intepret the rules exactly as they are written? Is it not *cheating* to try and do something a rule isn't allowing you to do?
Careful here, unless you play by all the rules listed here.
Like allowing Ko'Sarro Khan and the like to ride in Land Raiders because buying a Space Marine bike doesn't change your unit type to 'Bike'. And the unit type is what restricts who can and cannot ride in transports.
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WH40K
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
28 successful trades in the Dakka Swap Shop! Check out my latest auction here!
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2011/02/20 22:47:12
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Unfortunately, the ruling for Coteaz and Henchman can only be interpreted one way. Any other way, and the rules break down.
Coteaz' Ruling:
Lord of Formosa
Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army.
Some key notes here. One, it does NOT say they COUNT AS, are CONSIDERED TO BE, or anything of the sort. It concretely and clearly states they " ARE TROOP CHOICES." This is an important distinction.
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband Ruling:
For each Inquisitor in your army you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchman, chosen in any combination. This unit does not use up a force organisation[sic] slot.
One, there is no mention, anywhere in the entirety of the section for Force Selection in the main Rulebook that mentions the word SLOT anywhere. So if you want to argue RAW and word semantics, then Warbands take up an Elite Slot, as well as requiring an Inquisitor until you field Coteaz, which does nothing to change the fact they are then Troop Choices.
Two, this is a UNIT specific entry, and it clarifies that with "THIS UNIT does not...". Coteaz' ruling is army wide. It states so, clearly: "...are Troops choices in an army...".
RAW, Warbands - ALL Warbands - taken in an Army that includes Coteaz ARE TROOPS CHOICES. Either, they ARE, or they ARE NOT. And if they ARE a TROOPS CHOICE, they MUST consume a TROOPS CHOICE. They are a troops choice - this is an army wide rule that overwrites the unit specific entry. They ARE a troops choice. And in order to BE a troops choice, they MUST consume a troops choice. If you're wondering why I've repeated it so often, there's a reason. That statement is wholly clear, but apparently is being widely misinterpreted. For something to BE a Troops Choice, it must CONSUME one. It cannot actually BE a Troops Choice without consuming a Troops Choice selection. If the Ruling stated they COUNTED AS Troops, then yes, it would be perfectly, wholly valid to say that they do not consume a "force organization slot." However, the rule concretely, and with no mincing of words, states rather blatantly they ARE a TROOPS CHOICE. They don't "COUNT AS" Troops. They don't SCORE LIKE TROOPS. They aren't even JUST "Troops." They are a TROOPS CHOICE, a specific, and unmistakable reference to a TROOPS CHOICE out of the Force Organization Chart. Of which you can only field six in the standard FOC chart.
Any other interpretation of that statement breaks that ruling. Either they ARE, or they AREN'T. It does NOT say "They count as troops" - this would leave ambiguity open for translation, in which case people arguing that they don't consume a "force organization slot" would have a perfectly valid argument. However, the ruling does not state that. It concretely, unequivocally states that they "...are a troops choice..."
The basis of the entire argument over the idea you can field "unlimited" numbers of Henchmen relies on one thing - the warband specific entry. This is blatantly overwritten by Coteaz's rule, but for the sake of argument lets pretend not. Unfortunately, even then the argument does not hold water. That stance is entirely a semantic one, trying to use and interpret the wording of both rules to defend the ultimate result that you can field unlimited numbers of warbands. Unfortunately, as a semantic device this breaks down instantly, for one simple reason. There is no such thing as a force organization slot. There is a force organisation[sic] chart, with choices, compulsory choices, selections, and compulsory selections; however, not once in the entire section of the rulebook for force selection is there any mention of any specific "SLOT" for force organization. Utilizing that as a semantic device to somehow validate that point is, unfortunately, a fallacy.
So, utilizing that as a semantic device, people who attempt to use the wording of the codex, "This unit does not use up a force organisation[sic] slot.", unfortunately put themselves into a RAW position where the only legal way to abide by the rules is that Warbands with Coteaz are Troops Choices, and consume a Troops Choice (Which are all the RAW legal terminology for the consumption for FOC Chart selections); or without Coteaz, would consume a Elite choice while being limited by the number of Inquisitors fielded, because there is no such thing as a "force organisation slot."
Either way, RAW this Codex is well on the wrong side of ridiculous so I'm hoping it's a big hoax or was an early development copy and has since changed (Though I doubt, even if the rules do, the fluff will... leaving us with some atrocious fan-fic quality official fluff...).
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2011/02/20 22:55:47
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Freaky Flayed One
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Thank you for putting that one to bed, ghost. Now break out the crayons so you can explain it to ph34r :X
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 22:59:13
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2011/02/20 22:58:09
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
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Regardless of how you look at that, 6 units packed to the brim with lascannons or plasma guns is still more than enough to get the job done. You can pack 72(!) plasma guns in a list for just over 1000 points.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 22:59:55
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2011/02/20 23:02:13
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
A garden grove on Citadel Station
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Drachii wrote:Thank you for putting that one to bed, ghost. Now break out the crayons so you can explain it to ph34r :X
Sorry, but he is wrong. Sure, he wrote a lot, Sure he USED a lot of CAPITALIZATION, but he is still wrong. He thinks that just because something is a troops choice, it must ignore rules stating it does not use slots. This is obviously wrong and reeks of kindergarten logic.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 23:02:28
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. |
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2011/02/20 23:11:25
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Regular Dakkanaut
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ph34r wrote:Drachii wrote:Thank you for putting that one to bed, ghost. Now break out the crayons so you can explain it to ph34r :X
Sorry, but he is wrong. Sure, he wrote a lot, Sure he USED a lot of CAPITALIZATION, but he is still wrong. He thinks that just because something is a troops choice, it must ignore rules stating it does not use slots. This is obviously wrong and reeks of kindergarten logic.
Well, like I said in the post you clearly didn't read, there is no mention of slots anywhere in Force Organization Selection. The moment you can point that out, you have a valid point. Furthermore, the moment you can point out where the ambiguity is, in a rule that modifies the entire army, and unequivocally states "Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz" you will actually have a point. And beyond that, if you can point out how something can be a Troops Choice and NOT be a Troops Choice, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 23:12:06
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2011/02/20 23:16:18
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
A garden grove on Citadel Station
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GhostRecon wrote:Unfortunately, the ruling for Coteaz and Henchman can only be interpreted one way. Any other way, and the rules break down.
Yep. And this way is the rules way, which is also my way. Let's explore. Coteaz wrote:Lord of Formosa Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz, and are not limited by the number of Inquisitors in your army. Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband wrote:For each inquisitor in your army you may also include a unit of 3-12 henchmen, chosen in any combination.This unit does not use a force organization slot. One, there is no mention, anywhere in the entirety of the section for Force Selection in the main Rulebook that mentions the word SLOT anywhere. So if you want to argue RAW and word semantics, then Warbands take up an Elite Slot, as well as requiring an Inquisitor until you field Coteaz, which does nothing to change the fact they are then Troop Choices.
Arguing that slots don't exist is asinine and will get you kicked out of my store. I'm going to ignore this for your benefit. Two, this is a UNIT specific entry, and it clarifies that with "THIS UNIT does not...". Coteaz' ruling is army wide. It states so, clearly: "...are Troops choices in an army...".
Right. All Henchmen units are troops units in an army that includes Coteaz. This much is obvious. RAW, Warbands - ALL Warbands - taken in an Army that includes Coteaz ARE TROOPS CHOICES. Either, they ARE, or they ARE NOT. And if they ARE a TROOPS CHOICE, they MUST consume a TROOPS CHOICE.
They ARE troops CHOICES with CAPITALIZATION. So yes, Henchmen ARE TROOPS CHOICES. However, the magic rules fairly has not come along and removed "This unit does not use a force organization slot." So, no, they MUST NOT consume a troops choice. They are a troops choice - this is an army wide rule that overwrites the unit specific entry. They ARE a troops choice. And in order to BE a troops choice, they MUST consume a troops choice.
WRONG. See: IG Priests, IG Enginseers, all dedicated transports, summoned daemons. Man, it must feel pretty stupid for you to have forgot about all of those obvious examples, huh. If you're wondering why I've repeated it so often, there's a reason. That statement is wholly clear, but apparently is being widely misinterpreted. For something to BE a Troops Choice, it must CONSUME one.
CITATION NEEDED. SEE ABOVE COUNTER EXAMPLES. It cannot actually BE a Troops Choice without consuming a Troops Choice selection. If the Ruling stated they COUNTED AS Troops, then yes, it would be perfectly, wholly valid to say that they do not consume a "force organization slot." However, the rule concretely, and with no mincing of words, states rather blatantly they ARE a TROOPS CHOICE. They don't "COUNT AS" Troops. They don't SCORE LIKE TROOPS. They aren't even JUST "Troops." They are a TROOPS CHOICE, a specific, and unmistakable reference to a TROOPS CHOICE out of the Force Organization Chart. Of which you can only field six in the standard FOC chart.
Still wrong. If GW wanted them to just be scoring, they would make them scoring, like Pedro. Unfortunately for you, they made them troops choices, like Logan Grimnar. The basis of the entire argument over the idea you can field "unlimited" numbers of Henchmen relies on one thing - the warband specific entry. This is blatantly overwritten by Coteaz's rule
I give you three facts. Given 1 Given 2 Given 3 I now give you another fact. Given 4 replaces Given 1 and Given 2 with new versions. Now tell me, is Given 3 effected at all? No. No it isn't. This would be obvious to anyone with some sort of formal education, but hey, props to you for still being in middle school. Either way, RAW this Codex is well on the wrong side of ridiculous so I'm hoping it's a big hoax or was an early development copy and has since changed (Though I doubt, even if the rules do, the fluff will... leaving us with some atrocious fan-fic quality official fluff...).
Boo hoo, wah. Automatically Appended Next Post: GhostRecon wrote:ph34r wrote:Drachii wrote:Thank you for putting that one to bed, ghost. Now break out the crayons so you can explain it to ph34r :X
Sorry, but he is wrong. Sure, he wrote a lot, Sure he USED a lot of CAPITALIZATION, but he is still wrong. He thinks that just because something is a troops choice, it must ignore rules stating it does not use slots. This is obviously wrong and reeks of kindergarten logic. Well, like I said in the post you clearly didn't read, there is no mention of slots anywhere in Force Organization Selection. The moment you can point that out, you have a valid point. Furthermore, the moment you can point out where the ambiguity is, in a rule that modifies the entire army, and unequivocally states "Inquisitorial Henchmen warbands are Troops choices in an army that includes Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz" you will actually have a point. And beyond that, if you can point out how something can be a Troops Choice and NOT be a Troops Choice, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
Henchmen are a troops choice. Definitely. 100% agreed. They also have a special rule that makes them not take slots. It goes something like (exactly like) this: "This unit does not use a force organization slot." Argue with that. "This unit does not use a force organization slot." "This unit does not use a force organization slot." "This unit does not use a force organization slot."
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/20 23:18:41
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. |
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2011/02/20 23:23:00
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
Dumbarton, Scotland
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EVERYONE. Play it as you want. Just mention to your opponent beforehand whether you're playing them as troops or not. They can make their own decision either way.
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Karyorhexxus' Sons of the Locust: 1000pts |
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2011/02/20 23:24:35
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
A garden grove on Citadel Station
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And if they make the decision that the rule "This unit does not use a force organization slot." does not exist, then I can choose to start ignoring their rules as well.
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ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. |
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2011/02/20 23:29:47
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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Well, if this leaked copy is in fact the codex we will be recieving, which it is not, most will be hard pressed to play a game with Coteaz if you use RAW/Henchmen special rule and/or take 72 Plasma Guns/Meltaguns for 1000 points as fafnir stated. Actually, you will probably play a person once, after that, probably not. In anything other than Tournaments, where you are forced to play against your opponents list, and Apocalypse, you will not be playing a lot of games.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/02/20 23:31:13
Thunderfrog wrote:
+1 Str for like 5 points? To autocannons or assault cannons? Hell yea. Then the Reinforced Aegis upgrade for free AND the ability to ignore stunned shaken.. pretty much for free..
Other Dreadnaughts should just go somewhere and be a toaster.
Mattieu~~~~ It's not that eldar are bad, it's that they require a lot of intergration between units. Also, that doesnt prove anything other than GW has a huge hard-on for marines, and, given the option between making a xeno the best psykers or making a marine the best psyker, they will 9 times out of 10 choose the marine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tzeentchling9 wrote:Mephy can't be swept. He is still a marine so he has the, "And They Shall Never Get Removed From The Table After Losing Combat Like Everyone Else Because They Are The Poster Boys" special rule.
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2011/02/20 23:30:11
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
Dumbarton, Scotland
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Then go right ahead. I just hope I never need to play you.
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Karyorhexxus' Sons of the Locust: 1000pts |
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2011/02/20 23:30:22
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Mounted Kroot Tracker
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I know the english language quite well. I know all about paragraphs, and the word "this". I know what my stance is.
If Games Workshop says "Sorry, they take up a troops slot, too bad for you!" then think: You can take a pure Inquisitorial army, without any of these silly grey knight strike forces!
If Games Workshop says "Of course they don't take a slot, you silly glue-sniffers!" then think: You have thousands and thousands of combinations of gorilla-cheese at your disposal!
Either way, you win! Now stop complaining and wait for the FAQ.
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Night Watch SM
Kroot Mercenaries W 2 - D 3 - L 1
Manchu wrote: This is simply a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone says, "it won't change so why should I bother to try?" and then it doesn't change so people feel validated in their bad behavior.
Nightwatch's Kroot Blog
DQ:90-S++G++M-B++I+Pw40k08#+D+A--/cWD-R+T(S)DM+
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2011/02/20 23:31:38
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
A garden grove on Citadel Station
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Cerebrium wrote:Then go right ahead. I just hope I never need to play you.
Do you have it in your head that I intend to take 18 razorback/warrior units or something? I just need more than 6 slots to make a 2000 point inquisitorial army, and I will fight for my right in the rules as they exist to have them. Automatically Appended Next Post: Nightwatch wrote:I know the english language quite well. I know all about paragraphs, and the word "this". I know what my stance is.
If Games Workshop says "Sorry, they take up a troops slot, too bad for you!" then think: You can take a pure Inquisitorial army, without any of these silly grey knight strike forces!
I think you'll be hard pressed to fill out 2000 points with only 72 models. Unless the only pure inquisition army GW intends for you to be able to use at high levels is made of 35 point jokearo in squads of 12 to be able to hit 2000 points *barfs*
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 23:33:37
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. |
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2011/02/20 23:34:57
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
Dumbarton, Scotland
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Then you go right ahead. Just as soon as you breach 6 troop slots, I'm going to refuse to play you.
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Karyorhexxus' Sons of the Locust: 1000pts |
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2011/02/20 23:38:53
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
A garden grove on Citadel Station
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Cerebrium wrote:Then you go right ahead. Just as soon as you breach 6 troop slots, I'm going to refuse to play you.
You know that it is 100% within the rules as written and intended to take as many Henchmen squads as you want?
Then again, you can be a big baby. You can pack up your models as soon as you see your opponent unpack more than 3 dreadnoughts. You can break down in tears if you see the other guy taking 6 venoms and 6 raiders out of his box. You can throw a fit and curse the gods if you see the other guy's list includes 18 long fangs. You can flip the table and physically assault the other guy if he has 20 hammernators and vulkan.
Doesn't mean the rules support you.
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ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. |
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2011/02/20 23:40:19
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
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ph34r wrote:You can flip the table and physically assault the other guy if he has 20 hammernators and vulkan.
I'd pay to see that.
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2011/02/20 23:44:44
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
Dumbarton, Scotland
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May make me a "big baby" for enforcing the FOC, but I'd rather be a "big baby" than someone flagrantly disobeying the rules just cause they can. And this whole thing you're pleading about "it's RAW!"? I suppose you're the kind of person who claims wraithlords can't shoot, because LOS is mesured from the model's eyes, and wraithlords have none?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 23:47:29
Karyorhexxus' Sons of the Locust: 1000pts |
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2011/02/20 23:44:54
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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They ARE troops CHOICES with CAPITALIZATION. So yes, Henchmen ARE TROOPS CHOICES. However, the magic rules fairly has not come along and removed "This unit does not use a force organization slot." So, no, they MUST NOT consume a troops choice.
a SLOT means taking a unit as a X choice, coteaz's rule specifically says they are troops choices. I still don't see where the ambiguity is, like ghost.
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2011/02/20 23:47:10
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
A garden grove on Citadel Station
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gendoikari87 wrote:They ARE troops CHOICES with CAPITALIZATION. So yes, Henchmen ARE TROOPS CHOICES. However, the magic rules fairly has not come along and removed "This unit does not use a force organization slot." So, no, they MUST NOT consume a troops choice.
a SLOT means taking a unit as a X choice, coteaz's rule specifically says they are troops choices. I still don't see where the ambiguity is, like ghost.
I'm confused as to what you are arguing. I agree that Coteaz makes them troops choices. I also agree that this would mean they would take a troops slot, if it were not for the rule explicitly saying "This unit does not use a force organization slot." Automatically Appended Next Post: Cerebrium wrote:May make me a "big baby" for enforcing the FOC, but I'd rather be a "big baby" than someone flagrantly disobeying the rules just cause they can.
I think that enforcing the FOC and ignoring the rule "This unit does not use a force organization slot." are not the same. I agree fully that Coteaz makes them troop choices and this would make them take slots if it were not also for the rule "This unit does not use a force organization slot."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 23:47:55
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. |
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2011/02/20 23:48:44
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
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As a Daemonhunters player I have to say, if this is a rough indication of what we'll be getting, I'm rather disappointed.
Far too many units, they've lost the flavour. I don't want Librarians and Apothecaries and ghost soldiers and tanks - this is why I loved the old Daemonhunters Codex.
If this is what's released, I won't be buying the new version and I'll be sticking with my Orks and Tau. Shame.
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Codex: Grey Knights touched me in the bad place... |
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2011/02/20 23:48:47
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
Dumbarton, Scotland
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Oh, and pure curiosity here, what are you going to use as your mandatory 2 FOC-filling troops choices, if you're making it pure =][=?
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Karyorhexxus' Sons of the Locust: 1000pts |
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2011/02/20 23:50:17
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Regular Dakkanaut
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One, there is no mention, anywhere in the entirety of the section for Force Selection in the main Rulebook that mentions the word SLOT anywhere. So if you want to argue RAW and word semantics, then Warbands take up an Elite Slot, as well as requiring an Inquisitor until you field Coteaz, which does nothing to change the fact they are then Troop Choices.
Arguing that slots don't exist is asinine and will get you kicked out of my store. I'm going to ignore this for your benefit.
This is a singularly arrogant, useless, and rather asinine statement in and of itself. Your argument is based on exploitation of the semantics of two rules. Pointing that out to you will get someone kicked out of your store? You've already invalidated every other statement you can possibly bring to bear with this. You just stated you'd throw out anyone who attempted to use the exact same basis of your rules interpretation, provided it was opposite of your own perspective. Way to go.
Two, this is a UNIT specific entry, and it clarifies that with "THIS UNIT does not...". Coteaz' ruling is army wide. It states so, clearly: "...are Troops choices in an army...".
Right. All Henchmen units are troops units in an army that includes Coteaz. This much is obvious.
No, this is wrong, and shows what you don't understand. Coteaz's rule does not make them troops units. His rule explicitly makes them a TROOPS CHOICE, which by RESULT makes them a troops unit. I know this may be difficult for you to understand, since we're onto the theme of arrogant condescension as an debating tool on your part, but a TROOPS CHOICE is a selection of the FOC chart, that results in one, or more, TROOPS UNIT. In fact, this might be a real shocker to you, but there are several different units you can get, from one FOC CHOICE.
Using your little turn of phrase, See: IG Infantry Platoons, Valkyries, War Walkers, IG Tank and Artillery selections, just to name a few. Man, it must feel pretty stupid for you to have forgot about all of those obvious examples, huh.
RAW, Warbands - ALL Warbands - taken in an Army that includes Coteaz ARE TROOPS CHOICES. Either, they ARE, or they ARE NOT. And if they ARE a TROOPS CHOICE, they MUST consume a TROOPS CHOICE.
They ARE troops CHOICES with CAPITALIZATION. So yes, Henchmen ARE TROOPS CHOICES. However, the magic rules fairly has not come along and removed "This unit does not use a force organization slot." So, no, they MUST NOT consume a troops choice.
They are a troops choice - this is an army wide rule that overwrites the unit specific entry. They ARE a troops choice. And in order to BE a troops choice, they MUST consume a troops choice.
WRONG. See: IG Priests, IG Enginseers, all dedicated transports, summoned daemons. Man, it must feel pretty stupid for you to have forgot about all of those obvious examples, huh.
Just to use IG Priests and Enginseers as an example, since I have their entry on hand. 1. You are wrong. 2. You are still wrong, and here's why. For one thing, IG Priests and Enginseers properly reference "Force Organization Selection," so semantically they are rules-correct. Two, there is no rules entry, given by character or otherwise, that changes what part of the FOC chart they sit in, so no, they are not an accurate descriptor or provider of past precedent on this issue. As others have already pointed out in this thread, even summoned daemons are not a valid comparison. Nice try, though. You can keep your attempted condescending remark too. Here, lets put it next to your crayons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 23:50:54
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2011/02/20 23:51:06
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
A garden grove on Citadel Station
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Cerebrium wrote:Oh, and pure curiosity here, what are you going to use as your mandatory 2 FOC-filling troops choices, if you're making it pure =][=?
Henchmen. Just as the Emperor's Champion can be your mandatory HQ as Black Templars even though it doesn't take a slot, and an Enginseer can be your mandatory HQ as IG even though it doesn't take a slot.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 23:51:15
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. |
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2011/02/20 23:53:28
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
Dumbarton, Scotland
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So, potentially, if the urge took you, you could have as many henchmen as you wanted, plus 6 Grey Knight Strike Squads?
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Karyorhexxus' Sons of the Locust: 1000pts |
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2011/02/20 23:57:44
Subject: Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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ph34r wrote:Cerebrium wrote:Oh, and pure curiosity here, what are you going to use as your mandatory 2 FOC-filling troops choices, if you're making it pure =][=?
Henchmen. Just as the Emperor's Champion can be your mandatory HQ as Black Templars even though it doesn't take a slot, and an Enginseer can be your mandatory HQ as IG even though it doesn't take a slot.
um hate to break it to you but you are wrong on the IG front, an enginseer can't be your manditory HQ. good try though.
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2011/02/21 00:00:17
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
A garden grove on Citadel Station
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Just to use IG Priests and Enginseers as an example, since I have their entry on hand. 1. You are wrong. 2. You are still wrong, and here's why. For one thing, IG Priests and Enginseers properly reference "Force Organization Selection," so semantically they are rules-correct. Two, there is no rules entry, given by character or otherwise, that changes what part of the FOC chart they sit in, so no, they are not an accurate descriptor or provider of past precedent on this issue. As others have already pointed out in this thread, even summoned daemons are not a valid comparison. Nice try, though. You can keep your attempted condescending remark too. Here, lets put it next to your crayons.
Summon daemons are a valid comparison. They are a "summoned daemons" choice which are
1. Treated as troops
2. Don't take up force organization slots
Priests and Enginseers:
1. Do not use up selections
2. Are treated as HQ units
Emperor's Champion:
1. Does not use up an HQ slot
2. Is an HQ choice
Henchmen:
1. Does not use a force organization slot
2. Counts as a troop choice
Notice a pattern?
...
Want me to draw a venn diagram?
In crayons? Automatically Appended Next Post: gendoikari87 wrote:ph34r wrote:Cerebrium wrote:Oh, and pure curiosity here, what are you going to use as your mandatory 2 FOC-filling troops choices, if you're making it pure =][=?
Henchmen. Just as the Emperor's Champion can be your mandatory HQ as Black Templars even though it doesn't take a slot, and an Enginseer can be your mandatory HQ as IG even though it doesn't take a slot.
um hate to break it to you but you are wrong on the IG front, an enginseer can't be your manditory HQ. good try though.
As an IG player I can say with confidence that it being an HQ choice, it can be your mandatory HQ.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/21 00:01:48
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. |
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2011/02/21 00:03:49
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Priests and Enginseers:
1. Do not use up selections
2. Are treated as HQ units
Emperor's Champion:
1. Does not use up an HQ slot
2. Is an HQ choice
you just invalidated your own argument, as the priests can't be your manditory HQ but the emperors champion can. The champion uses the word CHOICE, the priest does not. End story.
As an IG player I can say with confidence that it being an HQ choice, it can be your mandatory HQ.
Show up to an offical tournament and try to pass that list off, you'll see.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/21 00:04:45
011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110 |
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2011/02/21 00:09:31
Subject: Re:Grey Knight Codex pdf
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
A garden grove on Citadel Station
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gendoikari87 wrote:Priests and Enginseers:
1. Do not use up selections
2. Are treated as HQ units
Emperor's Champion:
1. Does not use up an HQ slot
2. Is an HQ choice
you just invalidated your own argument, as the priests can't be your manditory HQ but the emperors champion can. The champion uses the word CHOICE, the priest does not. End story.
As an IG player I can say with confidence that it being an HQ choice, it can be your mandatory HQ.
Show up to an offical tournament and try to pass that list off, you'll see.
Okay, I will. Oh wait, I already have. In fact, even the INAT FAQ says that it is legal to fulfill force orgs with Priests and Enginseers. Sorry
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ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. |
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