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Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

 Easy E wrote:
So, I posted in this thread a while ago about what i spend my hobby time doing now. Mostly runnig a bakery.

However, when ran across this site it was really eye-opening for me.

http://freewargamesrules.wikia.com/wiki/Freewargamesrules_Wiki


I've had alot of positive experiences with low-cost and free rulesets. Almost all the games our club plays are of this type.

Song of Blades and Heroes: $8 PDF with $8 expansions
Kings of War: Free or $35 for a hardcover full-color rulebook that comes with 8 complete army lists!
Wastelands: Free and periodically updated(every few years) post-apoc rules
Nuclear Rennaissance: Free PDF or for sale hardcopy. Expansion is a hardcopy or $9 PDF.

There are some great free rulesets that were formerly commercial rulesets, but now are free.
Warengine (formerly shockforce): Sci-Fantasy platoon combat
Full Thrust: Free and still great starship combat.

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





I understand GW's value is bad compared to most other war games. I didn't make that comparison because I'm not interested in other war games. If the models and background don't catch my eye, I'm not going to put the time in to model, paint and learn the rules. Some people may be able to have as much fun with pen and paper. I am not one of those people. I compare value to what's actually relevant to me. What else would I be spending my money on to have fun during that time? It wouldn't be another war game. It would be the things I mentioned in my previous post. GW is not a good value if you can have just as much fun playing other games. It is a good value if you could only get the same amount of enjoyment from other things that are far more expensive.
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






That is all well and good - but I will point out that this is a thread about people that have left GW and are playing other things.

Expecting to get much sympathy when you are saying that you are fine with GW's overpriced miniatures and their overpriced and shoddy rules... is setting yourself up for disappointment.

Because a majority of people that would post in such a thread do find fault with both GW's prices and their rules.

*EDIT* For the people posting in this thread GW does not provide value for money, so why try to defend GW? It fails to convince the readers, and tends to paint you in a... less than favorable light.

The Auld Grump

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/22 23:04:14


Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




 Selym wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
To some extent GW games vs other games in not a great comparison though. I certainly won't argue that GW games cost more to play they do. But that is a scale of game issue more than a cost of product issue.

People are using Malifaux as a comparison. Sure the game is way cheaper to play, but on a per model basis it is every bit as expensive.

The larger GW issue is that of cost of their rules, cost of updating your army etc. Now its value vs that of other games is relative to how much you enjoy each game. Right now 40k is a bad value for me because I am enjoying playing Malifaux more at the moment. So why spend more on something I'm not enjoying, but if I wanted to play an army scale game and didn't like the smaller scale 40k becomes a better value.

My larger issue is that I cannot honestly intro people to 40k anymore because the buy in from scratch is absurd.

There is certainly a point made here.
Nothing is quite like 40k. If I want to model things for the 40k universe, it's not like there is an alternative line with gothic aesthetics that also fits in 28mm/30mm heroic.
If I want to play a battle on the scale of 40k, the only alternatives are fan-made, and I can't convince any other players to agree to use non-GW rules, as I get accused of trying to powergame, or something else a TFG would do.

If you're in for the 40k style, GW is the only thing currently that works.

But you can always get stuff from Ebay.


Well their is a really good argument to why no one else does 28mm scale gaming on the scale of GW rules, to be honest the game scale just doesn't work, the game scale is out of whack, theirs no mobility or any form of tactics involved once you get too that point your just playing Gun powder aged games. Line up your troops and shoot at each other pretty much sums up what i have seen of that game and is defiantly something i am not interested in. Bring it down to smaller scale multi based units and something work out , like shall we say what Epic 40k was like .

Skirmish Scale Wargames are really the right scale for 28mm miniatures, you don't have to play on a massive 6 x 4 table , you can really focus on painting just a hand full or two of miniatures. You have mobility , usually tactical depth. This also allows gaming companies too expand and supply a line for these types of games much more realistically as very few companies ever go into plastics ( i cannot even begin to tell you the cost of molds, the material is cheap but to invest in the molds is almost unreasonable , unless you know your product is really going to sell or that you have the money too invest in such things). Miniatures a cheap to produce once you have them but sculpting is defiantly not cheap to get a good sculpt and this also must be taken into consideration.

I have seen far too many third party producers producing " Gothic like miniatures" and i think we can honestly say we want something different ( that is not covered in skulls ) and away from that setting. So yes if your into 40k than GW are the only producers of 40k ( well along with Forge world), but in the end, the market is moving towards diversity and this is nothing but good for wargaming as a whole as the more diversity the more healthy wargaming will be .

http://ufwg.weebly.com/

http://ufwg.weebly.com/shop.html 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Im going to put my few opinion sin here.

Ive not been back into 40k all that long although I've spent enough on it recently. But the thing i strive for more and more with every addition to my army....Is a really small skirmish scale game where my guys gain experience and the like. Now dont get me wrong, I love 40k even with its many faults (pricing is not something that has bothered me thus far I must just be a rich bastard)

But in my search for more strategic warfare (especially with the loss of mordeihm and necromunda) I stumbled across infinity...Ive only played with a friends models so far but omg Im so hooked. I cant wait for my operation ice storm to arrive. Its leaps and bounds ahead of 40k but i think the poster above hit the nail on the head. At the scale alot of 40k battles take place...the rules can only go so far. Even if GW made an effort it can only ever really boil down to "point and shoot" especially in comparison to infinity. I do love alot of gw models (i also hate a lot of them) but infinity is an excellent and extremely low cost option for some really good wargaming.

Emperor knows I will never be able to leave the 40k universe (the game i could take it or leave it. My group has enough old models and patched together rules to play) but infinity is a damn fine substitute if you cant afford £250 for 1000 points of army. Infitiny is less than half that! Plus in 40k we try to play fluffy and not let anyone get to op which is alot of work but its doable. Infinity is great out of the box no fettling of rules, no mutual banning of units just out of the box fun. I can see myself spending less and less on 40k models but I will always be a sucker for the fluff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/23 01:57:40


 
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






 TheAuldGrump wrote:
That is all well and good - but I will point out that this is a thread about people that have left GW and are playing other things.

Expecting to get much sympathy when you are saying that you are fine with GW's overpriced miniatures and their overpriced and shoddy rules... is setting yourself up for disappointment.

Because a majority of people that would post in such a thread do find fault with both GW's prices and their rules.


This is a good point too.

There's plenty of threads for you to happily talk about GW products. This forum is pretty GW centric. But this thread in particular is about people talking about why they left GW's games. Trying to debate the choices people made isn't going to gain any traction. These people are done with GW, and have moved on to other games that are making them happy to play.

You're also not going to find much support in your views of why GW is still a good company - people in this thread left for various reasons that, to them, convinced them they weren't worth their continued support.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





VA, USA

For people thinking that GW doesn't make the most expensive stuff on a model to model basis...I'll leave this right here


While they are singing "what a friend we have in the greater good", we are bringing the pain! 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

 Musashi363 wrote:
For people thinking that GW doesn't make the most expensive stuff on a model to model basis...I'll leave this right here

Spoiler:


I took the bait and looked it up. $100 for 5!
As high as it is, actually $20 per model isn't close to the most expensive I've seen, for mounted figures. However it does come close, and it may be the most expensive I've seen for a figure from a "mounted unit" as opposed to a single mounted special character.

Pretty shocking high price however you figure it. $100 is more than the price of a rulebook and all the figures necessary to play many of the games that I do.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/23 11:26:07


Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





And on the same token I can put up a picture of a kit where they have a lower price than most hings or kits from other companies where similar sized models cost more than $20 so your point is?

The larger issue still is that I need $500 of additional stuff to play the game vs that $100 for 5 models being enough to actually play the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/23 11:30:21


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

As always the issue is what else you need and how much the unit is in your force. It's $100 for five cavalry when you probably need at least a unit of 10 to use them effectively, right? So right away you need to pay double to really use it. On top of the rest of your army.

Compare PPs Khador Iron Fang Uhlans which are $60 for three and have extras for $20 right now, with a max unit being five so same price. However as before that $100 goes a longer way in a force than $100 on the vampire cavalry does because it represents more of your army so it looks/feels like you are spending less and/or getting more value for your $100. I would be fine paying $100 for that in my khador army because with a bit more I have a playable force. Not so much if I played vamps because there's a lot more I still need to make it viable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/23 11:52:41


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





The part I always find interesting in these discussions on the model to model price comparison is this:

The majority of other manufacturers are making their minis out of white metal or high-quality resin. GW makes the majority of their models out of PLASTIC!!!!

When GW first introduced plastics in core troop regiments, it was meant to cut the price (and cost) down of assembling large blocks of infantry.

Fast forward to today, and somehow, the madness of justifying paying so much for a material much cheaper than other manufacturers use is mind-boggling.

There is a reason why historical manufacturers are charging $0.75-$1.25 average per foot figure and $2.75 to $3.50 for mounted for plastics whereas GW is charging an average $4-$8 for foot and $4.50-$20 for cavalry despite having the manufacturing advantage over the historical ones. I am sorry, but GW "quality" is not four to eight time better than most of the plastic historicals on the market.

Just look at the new Nagash model. $105 for TWO sprues. Regardless of the size of the model, it is still only two sprues. The same amount of plastic that is in an Empire Free Company or typical 40k building set in the $33-$35 range. You are paying 350% more for WHAT exactly? If this doesn't plainly tell people they are being blatantly ripped off, I don't know what will. Everytime I see a new GW release now, with the prices constantly escalating upward, for some reason the quote, "A fool and his money are soon parted," always comes to mind.

 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

While we're on the subject, anyone mind if I fish for some 40k alternative models, for use in the game?

As in, suitable replacements for IG vehicles and infantry.
I'm genuinely interested.

I don't disagree that GW is a money-sucking vampire who cared more for a 1p coin than a human's life, so don't take the request as an argument in favour of them.
   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Well I suppose the prices are that high because people will pay it.

That being said, I think that each person has their limit, and this is compounded by GW no longer being the only (easily available) player in town. As that prices slide up, more and more purchasers are priced out, and that is probably what is at least in part responsible for their current drop in profits.

I do think the current start-up prices are nuts. If I was a kid coming into wargaming these days there is no way in hell I could afford to get into the game and play as GW intend me to. These days I couldn't really afford the expenditure either for that matter! It's certainly lucky that there are other options out there, and ultimately the market will decide! (I think, actually, that it's lucky for the industry that there are other competitors because I think GW's current behaviour could be driving the whole thing into the ground)

I know the rallying cry is 'buy from ebay!' but getting the minis through the post in a tesco bag, and then having to wear rubber gloves and try and scrub off 4 layers of paint in nitromors, does reduce some of the magic somewhat.


Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
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Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 Pacific wrote:
Well I suppose the prices are that high because people will pay it.

That being said, I think that each person has their limit, and this is compounded by GW no longer being the only (easily available) player in town. As that prices slide up, more and more purchasers are priced out, and that is probably what is at least in part responsible for their current drop in profits.

I do think the current start-up prices are nuts. If I was a kid coming into wargaming these days there is no way in hell I could afford to get into the game and play as GW intend me to. These days I couldn't really afford the expenditure either for that matter! It's certainly lucky that there are other options out there, and ultimately the market will decide! (I think, actually, that it's lucky for the industry that there are other competitors because I think GW's current behaviour could be driving the whole thing into the ground)

I know the rallying cry is 'buy from ebay!' but getting the minis through the post in a tesco bag, and then having to wear rubber gloves and try and scrub off 4 layers of paint in nitromors, does reduce some of the magic somewhat.


I don't know about others, but whenever I've purchased from Ebay, I've gotten either unbuilt or unpainted (and couple of painted things that were easy to clean), and were well packaged and quickly delivered. Probably because I keep buying from the 100% positive guys.

The only problems I've had was that long pointy things tend to break off in the post, and need re-gluing.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 Wayshuba wrote:
The part I always find interesting in these discussions on the model to model price comparison is this:

The majority of other manufacturers are making their minis out of white metal or high-quality resin. GW makes the majority of their models out of PLASTIC!!!!

When GW first introduced plastics in core troop regiments, it was meant to cut the price (and cost) down of assembling large blocks of infantry.

Fast forward to today, and somehow, the madness of justifying paying so much for a material much cheaper than other manufacturers use is mind-boggling.

There is a reason why historical manufacturers are charging $0.75-$1.25 average per foot figure and $2.75 to $3.50 for mounted for plastics whereas GW is charging an average $4-$8 for foot and $4.50-$20 for cavalry despite having the manufacturing advantage over the historical ones. I am sorry, but GW "quality" is not four to eight time better than most of the plastic historicals on the market.

Just look at the new Nagash model. $105 for TWO sprues. Regardless of the size of the model, it is still only two sprues. The same amount of plastic that is in an Empire Free Company or typical 40k building set in the $33-$35 range. You are paying 350% more for WHAT exactly? If this doesn't plainly tell people they are being blatantly ripped off, I don't know what will. Everytime I see a new GW release now, with the prices constantly escalating upward, for some reason the quote, "A fool and his money are soon parted," always comes to mind.


Simple: You're paying 350% more for A) A special character, and B) Something that anyone who buys the figure (already limited basically to people who play VCs and/or TKs, discounting people who might buy him for nostalgia) will only buy one of. So the GW mentality is that you have to charge a lot more because you'll sell less. Unfortunately they don't really translate this over in the opposite direction with regular rank-and-file troops that you need to buy a lot of.

It wouldn't even be that bad if they did price regular troops cheaply enough to buy a lot of without breaking the bank and then charged a lot for characters that you only buy one of.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

WayneTheGame wrote:
 Wayshuba wrote:
The part I always find interesting in these discussions on the model to model price comparison is this:

The majority of other manufacturers are making their minis out of white metal or high-quality resin. GW makes the majority of their models out of PLASTIC!!!!

When GW first introduced plastics in core troop regiments, it was meant to cut the price (and cost) down of assembling large blocks of infantry.

Fast forward to today, and somehow, the madness of justifying paying so much for a material much cheaper than other manufacturers use is mind-boggling.

There is a reason why historical manufacturers are charging $0.75-$1.25 average per foot figure and $2.75 to $3.50 for mounted for plastics whereas GW is charging an average $4-$8 for foot and $4.50-$20 for cavalry despite having the manufacturing advantage over the historical ones. I am sorry, but GW "quality" is not four to eight time better than most of the plastic historicals on the market.

Just look at the new Nagash model. $105 for TWO sprues. Regardless of the size of the model, it is still only two sprues. The same amount of plastic that is in an Empire Free Company or typical 40k building set in the $33-$35 range. You are paying 350% more for WHAT exactly? If this doesn't plainly tell people they are being blatantly ripped off, I don't know what will. Everytime I see a new GW release now, with the prices constantly escalating upward, for some reason the quote, "A fool and his money are soon parted," always comes to mind.


Simple: You're paying 350% more for A) A special character, and B) Something that anyone who buys the figure (already limited basically to people who play VCs and/or TKs, discounting people who might buy him for nostalgia) will only buy one of. So the GW mentality is that you have to charge a lot more because you'll sell less. Unfortunately they don't really translate this over in the opposite direction with regular rank-and-file troops that you need to buy a lot of.

It wouldn't even be that bad if they did price regular troops cheaply enough to buy a lot of without breaking the bank and then charged a lot for characters that you only buy one of.

I'd only be happy with that if they reworked the SC's to be *very* high quality. I'm talking, bringing Abby up to full size, decorative cloaks, pre-decorated bases, *proper* resin, none of that failcrap.
I'd be okay with the rank 'n' file losing some dead weight in plastic, such as grenades, holstered sidearms, extra sights and bayonets etc. They could compensate for that by making those into upgrade packs.

They could do that, make a box of 10 IG £10, the upgrade pack about £3, and the SC's could double.
   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

 Selym wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
Well I suppose the prices are that high because people will pay it.

That being said, I think that each person has their limit, and this is compounded by GW no longer being the only (easily available) player in town. As that prices slide up, more and more purchasers are priced out, and that is probably what is at least in part responsible for their current drop in profits.

I do think the current start-up prices are nuts. If I was a kid coming into wargaming these days there is no way in hell I could afford to get into the game and play as GW intend me to. These days I couldn't really afford the expenditure either for that matter! It's certainly lucky that there are other options out there, and ultimately the market will decide! (I think, actually, that it's lucky for the industry that there are other competitors because I think GW's current behaviour could be driving the whole thing into the ground)

I know the rallying cry is 'buy from ebay!' but getting the minis through the post in a tesco bag, and then having to wear rubber gloves and try and scrub off 4 layers of paint in nitromors, does reduce some of the magic somewhat.


I don't know about others, but whenever I've purchased from Ebay, I've gotten either unbuilt or unpainted (and couple of painted things that were easy to clean), and were well packaged and quickly delivered. Probably because I keep buying from the 100% positive guys.

The only problems I've had was that long pointy things tend to break off in the post, and need re-gluing.


Yes I was being a bit disingenuous there. A lot of the stuff I've bought off ebay has been the same standard as I would have done someone else - i.e. well packaged and protected, and I've landed myself a bargain.

But I have also got some horrendous stuff, which would have been have been quite amusing if not for the money spent - literally just a cardboard box with jumbles of miniatures inside (guessing an 'ebay dump' of some kids stuff by his parents), aforementioned wrapping in a tesco bag (which was all sticky inside - lovely!) and on one occasion miniatures which I believe were covered in something like woad...

Point being, the old adage 'you don't get new for second hand', and going rates from ebay shouldn't be used as a price guide for how much it costs for getting into a game. I know that's not what you are saying Selym but it's a statement often heard. It's fine for the veteran who can pick out some plasma guns in that pile'o'bits with the mobile phone pic blown up and sharpened on photoshop, but a lot of the time its no good if you're not exactly sure what you need to buy (for a child's parents or for gifts etc.) - in these cases, RRP is more appropriate.

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page

 
   
Made in us
Preceptor




Rochester, NY

WayneTheGame wrote:
Spoiler:
 Wayshuba wrote:
The part I always find interesting in these discussions on the model to model price comparison is this:

The majority of other manufacturers are making their minis out of white metal or high-quality resin. GW makes the majority of their models out of PLASTIC!!!!

When GW first introduced plastics in core troop regiments, it was meant to cut the price (and cost) down of assembling large blocks of infantry.

Fast forward to today, and somehow, the madness of justifying paying so much for a material much cheaper than other manufacturers use is mind-boggling.

There is a reason why historical manufacturers are charging $0.75-$1.25 average per foot figure and $2.75 to $3.50 for mounted for plastics whereas GW is charging an average $4-$8 for foot and $4.50-$20 for cavalry despite having the manufacturing advantage over the historical ones. I am sorry, but GW "quality" is not four to eight time better than most of the plastic historicals on the market.

Just look at the new Nagash model. $105 for TWO sprues. Regardless of the size of the model, it is still only two sprues. The same amount of plastic that is in an Empire Free Company or typical 40k building set in the $33-$35 range. You are paying 350% more for WHAT exactly? If this doesn't plainly tell people they are being blatantly ripped off, I don't know what will. Everytime I see a new GW release now, with the prices constantly escalating upward, for some reason the quote, "A fool and his money are soon parted," always comes to mind.


Simple: You're paying 350% more for A) A special character, and B) Something that anyone who buys the figure (already limited basically to people who play VCs and/or TKs, discounting people who might buy him for nostalgia) will only buy one of. So the GW mentality is that you have to charge a lot more because you'll sell less. Unfortunately they don't really translate this over in the opposite direction with regular rank-and-file troops that you need to buy a lot of.

It wouldn't even be that bad if they did price regular troops cheaply enough to buy a lot of without breaking the bank and then charged a lot for characters that you only buy one of.


Isn't it weird how you rationalize GW prices by looking at it from their perspective? Think about that.

I'm having a hard time coming up with another scenario where I would think, "well, I'll pay more for this because the price makes sense from the company's perspective." The only scenario where I come close to that is if I'm shopping at a local business and I want to support them, and even then, my logic is more "well this is as low as they can go in price because they're the little guys."

It's two plastic sprues. For $105.

I'm with Wayshuba on this. A fool and his money. In fact, most of the people in this thread are, and more and more people in wargaming are as well, which is why this thread exists and GW sales are dropping like a rock.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

- Hanlon's Razor
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




God's Country

I suppose I have partially left GW. I started with 40k back in the mid nineties after brother introduced me to Necromunda (which is still my all-time favorite GW game). I fell in love with the guard and began collecting Mordians, Tallarns, Valhallans, Cadians, et al. This was 3rd edition! A few years ago I finally got around to creating a fantasy army and I wound up creating many fantasy armies! First, Bretonnians; next, Empire; then Undead; and Orcs!

While I don't play much of any game, I still love collecting and painting GW miniatures. I love the odd, heroic scale. What I don't do is buy new GW miniatures.

The start was a few years ago after a massive, across-the-board 20% price increase. I grumbled and scaled back my purchases. Then, White Dwarf and the website began to undergo changes. I had ended my purchases of new GW minis and was content with exclusively used or old product lines. Finally, when the White Dwarf was reborn about 6 months back I stopped buying anything and everything GW. I felt (and still feel) betrayed by GW management.

Now, as I mentioned, I still love to paint and collect older models. I even like older GW books and game systems; I just don't buy new any longer.

P.S. the saddest story is the tale of abandonment viz a viz the specialist games range (Necromunda, Mordheim, Epic 40k, BFG, Bloodbowl, et al). GW's line of small-scale/skirmish games were always my favorite game systems and it is unfortunate that GW seems uninterested in having much to do with these titles short maintaining licensing rights.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/23 14:02:17


 
   
Made in au
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Adelaide, South Australia

Since there are a bunch of people here who are familiar with 40K I might as well post this here. It's also relevant because it's kinda where I went when I found myself wanting to play with my GW stuff (and friends who refuse to move to Warmachine).

Click for hi-res.
Spoiler:


Ancient Blood Angels
40IK - PP Conversion Project Files
Warmachine/Hordes 2008 Australian National Champion
Arcanacon Steamroller and Hardcore Champion 2009
Gencon Nationals 2nd Place and Hardcore Champion 2009 
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 Kojiro wrote:
Since there are a bunch of people here who are familiar with 40K I might as well post this here. It's also relevant because it's kinda where I went when I found myself wanting to play with my GW stuff (and friends who refuse to move to Warmachine).

Click for hi-res.
Spoiler:


For me, it's not just the rules or horrible business practices.
For me, 40k has been ruined by the horrible fluff. It's almost become a parody of itself. Before I left, I was considering starting a Space Wolf army, but now I see Murder McMurderson with his Murderclaws on planet McMurder and I just can't take it seriously anymore. There's always a certain (a lot) suspension of disbelief, but when it gets to the point of just being obviously silly, it ruins it for me. The flying bathtub is just so flat-out stupid that I can't ignore it and has now soured me to the SW. I could never play them even if I did go back to 40k. Now in the game you have loyalist Librarians summoning deamons, shooty ork armies, Khorne armies that are laughed at, tyrannids that are hardly a threat and elite super space marines that are practically useless on the field. The game no longer fits the fluff that I once loved and for me, it was about the fluff.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
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Adelaide, South Australia

 MWHistorian wrote:

For me, it's not just the rules or horrible business practices.
For me, 40k has been ruined by the horrible fluff. It's almost become a parody of itself.

I totally get that. All the conversion work I did is stuck in the 2nd/3rd ed period for just that reason. I've recreated 40k as I like and remember it. I'm going to enjoy my 40K no matter what GW tries to do.

edit- fixed quote box
edit 2- or so I thought...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/23 14:47:43


Ancient Blood Angels
40IK - PP Conversion Project Files
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 Selym wrote:
While we're on the subject, anyone mind if I fish for some 40k alternative models, for use in the game?

As in, suitable replacements for IG vehicles and infantry.
I'm genuinely interested.

I don't disagree that GW is a money-sucking vampire who cared more for a 1p coin than a human's life, so don't take the request as an argument in favour of them.
In general, replacements that actually look like IG vehicles are going to be pricey - smaller production runs than GW, and often in resin - though the prices of the GW models are still sometimes more.

Puppets War.

Dreamforge Games - frankly, the Dreamforge models deserve a better game than 40K.... Good for folks in carapace armor.

Victoria Lamb - pricey, but very high quality, with parts that are interchangeable with GW guard minis. These are what GW should be producing. I am sorry to say that she is selling her own painted Imperial Guard Praetorean army.... An era is passing.

It is also worth looking at some of the old Tamiya science fiction and military models - way back in the Rogue Trader days they were even being used (after heavy modification) by the folks at GW.... (As were things like plasticard and deodorant containers.... )

The Auld Grump


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kojiro wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:

For me, it's not just the rules or horrible business practices.
For me, 40k has been ruined by the horrible fluff. It's almost become a parody of itself.

I totally get that. All the conversion work I did is stuck in the 2nd/3rd ed period for just that reason. I've recreated 40k as I like and remember it. I'm going to enjoy my 40K no matter what GW tries to do.

edit- fixed quote box
edit 2- or so I thought...
There is a reason that I still play 3rd edition....

Do you remember all the fanzines that used to be around for 40K? I miss those days.... They contained more material than White Dwarf does these days.... (Not that it is hard to contain more than the current WD....)

Or Citadel Journal?

Or....

The Auld Grump

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/23 15:12:49


Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
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 Eilif wrote:

I took the bait and looked it up. $100 for 5!
As high as it is, actually $20 per model isn't close to the most expensive I've seen, for mounted figures. However it does come close, and it may be the most expensive I've seen for a figure from a "mounted unit" as opposed to a single mounted special character.


I think it's also important to keep in mind unit size?? Now, I have no idea how many of those knights can be in a unit, but what's the minimum?? are you looking at "needing" two or three boxes of those just to have an effective unit?
   
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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
 Selym wrote:
While we're on the subject, anyone mind if I fish for some 40k alternative models, for use in the game?

As in, suitable replacements for IG vehicles and infantry.
I'm genuinely interested.

I don't disagree that GW is a money-sucking vampire who cared more for a 1p coin than a human's life, so don't take the request as an argument in favour of them.
In general, replacements that actually look like IG vehicles are going to be pricey - smaller production runs than GW, and often in resin - though the prices of the GW models are still sometimes more.

Puppets War.

Dreamforge Games - frankly, the Dreamforge models deserve a better game than 40K.... Good for folks in carapace armor.

Victoria Lamb - pricey, but very high quality, with parts that are interchangeable with GW guard minis. These are what GW should be producing. I am sorry to say that she is selling her own painted Imperial Guard Praetorean army.... An era is passing.

It is also worth looking at some of the old Tamiya science fiction and military models - way back in the Rogue Trader days they were even being used (after heavy modification) by the folks at GW.... (As were things like plasticard and deodorant containers.... )

The Auld Grump


As well as the Auld Grump's examples there, there are also some more options:

Mantic Corporation and Enforcers (you can get the army sets for £30 if you shop around)
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/warpath/corporation.html
Spoiler:


Pig Iron Productions make some great sci-fi soldiers, little more expensive
http://www.pig-iron-productions.com/
Spoiler:


Also, Wargames Factory have quite a cool Helghast/Wolfenstein trooper style with their miniatures, again very cheap
http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore
Spoiler:


Hopefully some of those are of some use!

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page

 
   
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United Kingdom

Liking some of these suggestions, especially the DKoK/Steel Legion alternates

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/23 16:27:33


 
   
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I'm seeing cool models in this thread!

I left GW for the poor rules and poor support. The mistreatment of customers and competition was icing.

Reaper minis has gone on to say "I don't sell you minis that you'll paint, just minis that you'll think you'll paint!" (in a cheeky fashion). But that's the truth, you sell them on the thought and not the actual. The problem with GW is that the actual cost far out-strides the thought. I'd probably throw $50 at the Nagash model at the thought of slapping it together someday or making a cool diorama. But at $105? I could get two master-grade level Andrea miniatures shipped to me on my couch at that price. Or I could get me MOAR BANEZ. If you make great models AND price them correctly, people outside of said armies will want to buy it.

Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
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 Selym wrote:
Liking some of these suggestions, especially the DKoK/Steel Legion alternates


http://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/Exo-Lords/Black-Ops

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I'm from the future. The future of space

Wayshuba wrote:Just look at the new Nagash model. $105 for TWO sprues. Regardless of the size of the model, it is still only two sprues. The same amount of plastic that is in an Empire Free Company or typical 40k building set in the $33-$35 range. You are paying 350% more for WHAT exactly? If this doesn't plainly tell people they are being blatantly ripped off, I don't know what will. Everytime I see a new GW release now, with the prices constantly escalating upward, for some reason the quote, "A fool and his money are soon parted," always comes to mind.


I think it also might be the first in a series of such kits. By designing the plastic pieces to allow a mostly hollow kit of energy supports and spindly limbs, they were able to make a kit as tall as Nagash with as few sprues as possible. Much like they did for that daemon looking treeman thing for the wood elves release. The Treeman/Durthu though is 40% less for the same two sprues.

I think with this "end times" campaign, we'll see a low sprue spindly big kit for a high price and a double book campaign pack for a variety of armies in series. This will allow GW one last cash grab from their WFB die hards before the game either magically comes back in popularity (unlikely given these campaign books don't seem to be changing anything about the core product) or fades away.

As for myself, I'm still plugging away on my historical projects and playing some WM/H every month or so, with a frenzy of practice games a few times a year as large tournaments approach.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/23 18:58:04


Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





 frozenwastes wrote:
Wayshuba wrote:Just look at the new Nagash model. $105 for TWO sprues. Regardless of the size of the model, it is still only two sprues. The same amount of plastic that is in an Empire Free Company or typical 40k building set in the $33-$35 range. You are paying 350% more for WHAT exactly? If this doesn't plainly tell people they are being blatantly ripped off, I don't know what will. Everytime I see a new GW release now, with the prices constantly escalating upward, for some reason the quote, "A fool and his money are soon parted," always comes to mind.


I think it also might be the first in a series of such kits. By designing the plastic pieces to allow a mostly hollow kit of energy supports and spindly limbs, they were able to make a kit as tall as Nagash with as few sprues as possible. Much like they did for that daemon looking treeman thing for the wood elves release. The Treeman/Durthu though is 40% less for the same two sprues.

I think with this "end times" campaign, we'll see a low sprue spindly big kit for a high price and a double book campaign pack for a variety of armies in series. This will allow GW one last cash grab from their WFB die hards before the game either magically comes back in popularity (unlikely given these campaign books don't seem to be changing anything about the core product) or fades away.

As for myself, I'm still plugging away on my historical projects and playing some WM/H every month or so, with a frenzy of practice games a few times a year as large tournaments approach.


While I think you are correct, I will probably be waiting for it to come down in price, as I actually like the model, but would be using it in DnD games, as opposed to any sort of WHFB or 40k games.
   
 
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