Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Riptide? Outranges anything with Bladestorm. So sits in the back dropping pieplates.

Oh, and survives 30 Bladestorm shooters.

DK? Heavy Flamer + Shunt is a *lot* of dead Bladestormers.
And the Psycannon outranges them.
And can sweep them all if it comes to melee.
On the plus side, if all 30 shoot it in one go, they might kill it. If they're all still alive.

Bladestorm models are unlikely to get more than 1 round of shooting.

And 30 DAs is 390 points.

They aren't bad against MCs, but they're no trump card.

And your answer to occasionally-AP2 shooting is to not use cover? Wow.

LOS blocking can still help against battle focus. Stand near it. They shoot you? Can't battle focus far enough not to get charged. And even on the rends, you probably get cover.

LOS blocking terrain is about reducing the number of units that can effectively engage your army. Even if it mitigates it for a single turn that increases the amount of stuff you can still keep in the game.

Never underestimate the advantage of reducing how much firepower is coming in, even for a single turn.

The divergent LOS blocking views are interesting. A lot of disagreement seems to come from engagement range. Bharring is assuming BA can get significant army elements close enough to Eldar to actually assault them. Or maybe that's just my perception.

When playing against footdar, certainly.

Bharring wrote:
When playing against footdar, certainly.

I don't think I've played a footdar list since 3rd. That was last century.

I think I misunderstood you.
Do you think BA should reliably get significant army elements into assault?
Isn't that nearly the same as thinking BA should autowin against squishier armies?

At any rate, haven't we established Bladestorm isn't a big thing in armies you face now?

So aren't armies that you don't face now more relevant?

(And I field footdar all the time. Its not 'last century'.)

Bharring wrote:
And how does that compare to Guardians/DAs?

So this isn't the weekly "marines are crap' thread?

On a serious note, in my personal experience rending is ussualy more efficient against infantry/MCs in gameplay than on paper. A small fluke on 12 dice and 3 termies gone etc, also it's not a big deal when it fails (as it's only troops shooting) but when it works it really hurts. Id say bolters make marines worse as troops because they are not a serious threat on a table, thats excluding transport options ofc heh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
@Plumbumbarum: Marines get a special and a heavy, and can combat squad to allow the heavy to basically sit on an objective tossing shots out (usually a missile launcher since frag and krak are still decent) while the special rolls around doing it's own thing.

Honestly I can't comment on your game because I don't know exactly how it all was played, but perhaps you should try swapping lists. If you still win then you know it's not his list.

Yes I even proposed a list swap but the guy had enough then. I didnt notice any major mistakes in his play though, his target priority wasnt 100% perfect and obviously Im a genius but still I should have lost that game imo.

Black templar squad gets a special and a heavy in 5 guys and I still dont think they are good enough, much better than standard tacs though.

Bharring wrote:
I think I misunderstood you.
Do you think BA should reliably get significant army elements into assault?
Isn't that nearly the same as thinking BA should autowin against squishier armies?

At any rate, haven't we established Bladestorm isn't a big thing in armies you face now?

So aren't armies that you don't face now more relevant?

(And I field footdar all the time. Its not 'last century'.)

The BA aren't that great at assault compared to the real assault units in the game. It's far from an auto win.

"At any rate, haven't we established Bladestorm isn't a big thing in armies you face now? "

Pretty much. It would just be really nice against Daemons and GK, though.

Bladestorm isn't a big deal and if it was we would see more footdar. Currently serpents are king with wraithknight support. (wraithknights are competitive but not over the top)(serpents need a point reduction and a weapon reduction-maybe assault option)

But think of the basic troop without a vehicle will die to a stiff breeze. if combined with a vehicle it could survive but then your sacrificing the vehicle and have less damage out put by bladestorm.
(and honestly how many people actually fill out their serpents with da or guardians)

You do realize, Martel, that 5 Tacs will beat 10 DAs? That 3 will beat 10 Guardians?

Bharring wrote:
You do realize, Martel, that 5 Tacs will beat 10 DAs? That 3 will beat 10 Guardians?

Beat them at what?

In melee. You don't need TH/SS to beat things. You just need to be marginally better in the matchup.

I think footdar might be one of the few things that tacs are efficient against in melee.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Bladestorm isn't a big deal and if it was we would see more footdar.

Why?

Bladestorm does not matter to me at all.

In the Eldar i face the Dire Avengers don't even get out of their Wave Serpent, so bladestorm is more or less a moot point..
I hardly ever see Eldar infantry except for the fire dragons coming out of a wave serpent or swooping Hawks pinpoint deep striking on an objective.

Don't you see DA hoping out of their transport late game to finish of squads with 2-3 models left or when there is a MC with 1-2 wounds left and they gang up on it ? Am not saying they hop out turn 1-2, but DA do get out of their transport.

Bharring wrote:
Riptide? Outranges anything with Bladestorm. So sits in the back dropping pieplates.

Oh, and survives 30 Bladestorm shooters.

DK? Heavy Flamer + Shunt is a *lot* of dead Bladestormers.
And the Psycannon outranges them.
And can sweep them all if it comes to melee.
On the plus side, if all 30 shoot it in one go, they might kill it. If they're all still alive.

Bladestorm models are unlikely to get more than 1 round of shooting.

And 30 DAs is 390 points.

They aren't bad against MCs, but they're no trump card.

And your answer to occasionally-AP2 shooting is to not use cover? Wow.

LOS blocking can still help against battle focus. Stand near it. They shoot you? Can't battle focus far enough not to get charged. And even on the rends, you probably get cover.

Riptides survive anything - almost no point in ever bringing them up in a discussion about ballance. Eldar basically always have the upper hand...they outshoot your transports at range and ignore their cover with serpant shields. They get +1 covers saves. This is a situation that you are FORCED to bull rush them to combat their weakness (assualt). Then they shoot you down more often than not. Not saying I can't make a list that beats serpant spam with a ton of bladestorm. It just requires 150 dollar tanks from England and I'm just not paying that.

Just what, exactly, is Bladestorm outranging?

Infernus Pistols?

I'm actually... reasonably sure that Tacs statistically beat an equal points of value of pretty much any non-assault-specialist unit in the game in melee, except maybe Immortals in the Decurion.