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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I dont ever rememner Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Kharn dies to a round of Krak Missiles EASILY. That's not a bargain.

Who ever puts Kharn by himself against a 'round' of krak missiles?

That's without the cost of a retinue. If you look at the Kharn's cost with his durability, it is junk. He only has a 3+, 5++, W3, and no EW. Even IF he strikes at AP2 I5, it isn't good. Even Azrael, who isn't a killing machine whatsoever, can kill Kharn within a few rounds.

You can always say a character won't be by themselves, but that's just refusing to acknowledge the downsides to a character.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't ever remember Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Before 4th Ed codex Kharn was.

4Wounds, 6Attacks, +D3 on the assault, Fnp 4+, 2+/5++, EW, could Run+Assault, Furious Charge was +1Str and Init at the time.

He was 180pts at the time, could only be taken in an army with at least one unit marked to Khorne.

Him in a unit of fully geared Chosen of Khorne in a Khorne dedicated Land Raider was the incarnation of Rape-Train, and there was no brakes on it...

Was this second or third edition ?

 Battlesong wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
please tell that is sarcasm

It's either sarcasm or trolling....

What are you referring to?

That Multilators and Warp Talons could be described as anything but bad.

You must have missed the 20+ page thread on mutilators, or Koooaei's interjections into random threads.

There are certainly people who believe these units are good despite all evidence to the contrary.

When someone starts mentioning CSM are bad someone will comment that mutilators are good and the thread will get derailed. I was hoping to avoid it

I'm aware of the other thread, I've posted in it a few times.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That Multilators and Warp Talons could be described as anything but bad.

It's tragic, because fluff wise, both Mutilators & Warptalons are amongst the coolest units in the entire codex imho.

And yet, alongside 1kSons, they form the unholy "triumvirate of vomit-inducing uselessness."

Experiment 626 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That Multilators and Warp Talons could be described as anything but bad.

It's tragic, because fluff wise, both Mutilators & Warptalons are amongst the coolest units in the entire codex imho.

And yet, alongside 1kSons, they form the unholy "triumvirate of vomit-inducing uselessness."

Possessed didn't make the cut? I think mutilators are better than possessed.
And Khorne Berzerkers.
Really it needs to be a pentagr-WAIT A MINUTE

Mutilators are terrible compared to Possessed. Possessed from the Crimson Slaughter can capture objectives at a faster rate and can actually sweep whatever they catch in melee...

Akiasura wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That Multilators and Warp Talons could be described as anything but bad.

It's tragic, because fluff wise, both Mutilators & Warptalons are amongst the coolest units in the entire codex imho.

And yet, alongside 1kSons, they form the unholy "triumvirate of vomit-inducing uselessness."

Possessed didn't make the cut? I think mutilators are better than possessed.
And Khorne Berzerkers.
Really it needs to be a pentagr-WAIT A MINUTE

Possessed are bad, but Crimson Slaughter Possessed have some utility uses.
Berserkers are simply about 5pts/model overcosted when given their Chainaxes (which should simply be included as part of the basic package). Give them the charge though, and they can **** stuff up.

Mutilators are made of rank fecal matter even in the most optimal situations.
Warptalons work somewhat when used in a mono-Tzeentch Daemons list of all things.
1kSons have simply been in dire need of a hug for going on 15+ years now. (I don't think *ANY* unit in the game has been so routinely crap for nearly its entire existence!)

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't ever remember Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Before 4th Ed codex Kharn was.

4Wounds, 6Attacks, +D3 on the assault, Fnp 4+, 2+/5++, EW, could Run+Assault, Furious Charge was +1Str and Init at the time.

He was 180pts at the time, could only be taken in an army with at least one unit marked to Khorne.

Him in a unit of fully geared Chosen of Khorne in a Khorne dedicated Land Raider was the incarnation of Rape-Train, and there was no brakes on it...

Was this second or third edition ?

The only edition that mattered, everything after that was insulting

God I miss that Codex :(

Are you sure he was EW?

Yoyoyo wrote:
I can't give point-for-point but It apparently had something like this:

ML3 Sorc
Zombies
9 thudd guns
Rapier laser batteries
Daemon knight
Tz Horror and Herald for demon summoning (Grimoire?)
VSG

Copying netlists is overrated, it helps throw people off balance when you show up with something unexpected.

...That's 2 things from the CSM codex.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Every codex has units not worth taking. For example terminators are crap now. There are solid units in the CSM units - level 3 sorcerer on bike - oblits - plague zombies - heldrakes - a lot of the special characters - black mace prince. Personally I think Khorne has really come on strong lately with the new KDK.

A lot of special characters? What? Do you often play against Leman Russ battle tanks or SMs with grav? Ever played Tau? CSMs in PA get rekt 10/10 times the second we get out of our transports.

KDK ain't part of the CSM codex.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Oh gosh we do have viable delivery systems... it is not drop pods or LR variants.

Our Rhinos are decent, but do you notice that nothing on the list of what you said we had was good actually goes in a Rhino, bar special characters?

Oh, and Loyalists take Rhinos for free these days. Sure, can't take Dirge Casters or Havoc Launchers, but they take Razorbacks instead, and then their MSUs and mobility rek us.

Akiasura wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That Multilators and Warp Talons could be described as anything but bad.

It's tragic, because fluff wise, both Mutilators & Warptalons are amongst the coolest units in the entire codex imho.

And yet, alongside 1kSons, they form the unholy "triumvirate of vomit-inducing uselessness."

Possessed didn't make the cut? I think mutilators are better than possessed.
And Khorne Berzerkers.
Really it needs to be a pentagr-WAIT A MINUTE

Here, have an exalt, you glorious thing!

Mutilators are better than many things when used right.

 koooaei wrote:
Mutilators are better than many things when used right.

Everything seems good when used in the exact right situation.

Unfortunately the exact right situation for Mutilators almost never shows up.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

The only edition that mattered, everything after that was insulting

Agree with the second statement, not with the first one. CSM true golden age was actually in 2nd edition, when you could pick whatever Loyalist piece of equipment you wanted by paying an extra 50% points price. Raptors didn't exist back then, but you could get them from the SM codex. And Landspeeders. And other toys. Doomrider was around too.

Regarding Kharn, I don't see EW in his 3.5 rules. He had a 2+ save though.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Unfortunately the exact right situation for Mutilators almost never shows up.

The thread about muties is still up in general discussion
So is the batrep in Battle reports.

Ah when we had the equivalent of artificer. Apparently we lost all our armour in the intervening years...

to be fari, the 3.5dex while intersting was horribly written (figuring points cost for a unit could be 5 or 6 pages easily, if you had legion rules to cope with) and a bit of mess, and had something like 2 stealth reprints to deal with the glaive silliness and Oblit toughness issues. Still, loved it. I remember my crazy bezerker chosen all with power weapons, daemonic strength and visage on my champion and feel no pain... glorious waste of points

We tried the 3.5 codex using the 7th ed rules and kept rules that only existed in the codex, like True Grit, or updated these to the latest 7th version, like Counter Attack. The game went ok but we both felt that it lacked a certain punch. Maybe because we were playing Nurgle and Night Lords.

With the 3.5 dex we liked that we had the ability to choose and create our own champions and the like. We also liked it's variety, but the new dex with stuff like Plague Marines and the Daemon Princes already being made for us are better than the ones we could take back then. But it was nice being able to create a T6 Prince, even if it lacked in other regards. Same as having a 2+ armour save on a Lord.

If the new codex has a combination of the current codex rules, with a drop in points, but the flexibility of the 3.5 dex, I think we could be on to a winner. But i'm not going to hold my breath after the 4th and 6th edition ones.

I think the humble Rhino is a fairly reasonable delivery system but the Land Raider has an identity crisis. We shouldn't also have to rely upon other books to have an alternative method to the 2 we have.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Are you sure he was EW?

He had a Deamonic Rune.

"The Chaos Champion as been gifted with a Deamonic Rune, a mighty symbol of the Powers of the Dark Gods.
Their power flows through the Rune, demonstrating the favour confered onto such Champion.
Such an individual as been marked for greatness and cannot be easely killed."

Unsaved attacks whose Strenghts are at least double the models thoughness, will cause a single Wound instead of an Instant Death.

Wich for the time correspond with EW, since there was no USR and each codex had each of their rules written in it, wich would occure in multiple versions or interpretations of the same rule/effect.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah when we had the equivalent of artificer. Apparently we lost all our armour in the intervening years...

to be fari, the 3.5dex while intersting was horribly written (figuring points cost for a unit could be 5 or 6 pages easily, if you had legion rules to cope with) and a bit of mess, and had something like 2 stealth reprints to deal with the glaive silliness and Oblit toughness issues. Still, loved it. I remember my crazy bezerker chosen all with power weapons, daemonic strength and visage on my champion and feel no pain... glorious waste of points

Well, we currently have artificer armour again. Except they went out of their way to not let us choose it freely XD.

Roknar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah when we had the equivalent of artificer. Apparently we lost all our armour in the intervening years...

to be fari, the 3.5dex while intersting was horribly written (figuring points cost for a unit could be 5 or 6 pages easily, if you had legion rules to cope with) and a bit of mess, and had something like 2 stealth reprints to deal with the glaive silliness and Oblit toughness issues. Still, loved it. I remember my crazy bezerker chosen all with power weapons, daemonic strength and visage on my champion and feel no pain... glorious waste of points

Well, we currently have artificer armour again. Except they went out of their way to not let us choose it freely XD.

yep, Chaos got screwed in the armour department. 6th Ed Marines and Chaos were similar. Both had Power Armour, 3+, and Terminator Armour (2+/5++, deepstrike, relentless, no sweeps), and then Artificer and Fleshmetal which gave 2+. Except Space Marine Captains got Artificer as an upgrade to 2+ for less than TDA, getting better options and cheaper (both points and model as you could just paint fancy PA), and Chaos Lords can only get Power or Terminator Armour, with the only units to get Fleshmetal are Warpsmiths, Oblits and Mutes. Sure, Libbies and Sorcerors can both get TDA, but so can Chaplains, and DA can't.
The only armour is Scout Armour and Improvised Armour. Which is 4+ vs 6+ so got screwed. Even compared to Imperial Guardsmen, of which cultists were clones in every other way, they have lower armour.

To be fair Cultists are cheaper and can be surprising in some instances( MoK cultists that delivers 4A each).

My beef with Cultists is that aparts for their cheapness, they don't have anything else.

In 3rd and 3.5( yeah i know again), at least they could be infiltrators/scouts and be equiped with plasmas/meltas.

For some reasons they don't have infiltrator, when its the whole point of Cultists..., they lie in wait of a Chaos incursion somewhere in the depth of a Hivecity and strike when you least expect them when the time is right.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
To be fair Cultists are cheaper and can be surprising in some instances( MoK cultists that delivers 4A each).

My beef with Cultists is that aparts for their cheapness, they don't have anything else.

In 3rd and 3.5( yeah i know again), at least they could be infiltrators/scouts and be equiped with plasmas/meltas.

For some reasons they don't have infiltrator, when its the whole point of Cultists..., they lie in wait of a Chaos incursion somewhere in the depth of a Hivecity and strike when you least expect them when the time is right.

Cultists aren't cheap though. Compare them to guardsmen. Same cost, worse equipment and options.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Are you sure he was EW?

He had a Deamonic Rune.

"The Chaos Champion as been gifted with a Deamonic Rune, a mighty symbol of the Powers of the Dark Gods.
Their power flows through the Rune, demonstrating the favour confered onto such Champion.
Such an individual as been marked for greatness and cannot be easely killed."

Unsaved attacks whose Strenghts are at least double the models thoughness, will cause a single Wound instead of an Instant Death.

Wich for the time correspond with EW, since there was no USR and each codex had each of their rules written in it, wich would occure in multiple versions or interpretations of the same rule/effect.

As written, Daemonic Rune has no effect on Force Weapons or weapons that simply have the Instant Death special rule.

Now, he has immunity to Instant Death from Force Weapons but not double-toughness. So it is really just a different kind of EW, and fluffier now to boot.

I didn't think he had true EW. Lucius was a better character back then.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
To be fair Cultists are cheaper and can be surprising in some instances( MoK cultists that delivers 4A each).

My beef with Cultists is that aparts for their cheapness, they don't have anything else.

In 3rd and 3.5( yeah i know again), at least they could be infiltrators/scouts and be equiped with plasmas/meltas.

For some reasons they don't have infiltrator, when its the whole point of Cultists..., they lie in wait of a Chaos incursion somewhere in the depth of a Hivecity and strike when you least expect them when the time is right.

Cultists aren't cheap though. Compare them to guardsmen. Same cost, worse equipment and options.

Also, cultists are 4PPM, 20% cheaper than Guardsmen.

They have to pay 1 point for a better gun though so it ends up evening out.