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 master of ordinance wrote:
How so? I just made a suggestion that will allow you to continue to play your BA

No, you told him to go play Codex: Space Marines.

I guess I can just tell you to quit complaining and go proxy as Renegades and Heretics then?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's not a BA list. If you have to swap out my codex for a list, you've already conceded the debate. And managed to work in your bitterness over C:SM. Well done.


Russes aren't survivable and their firepower is mediocre. They are slightly better land raiders.

How so? I just made a suggestion that will allow you to continue to play your BA, but do so at a completely higher level.
Russ's are survivable, IF you use them right. Big if there, but the 3+ cover save is a nightmare to my opponents. As others have said, it is the lack of ability to catch objectives that really lose a Guard player so many games. The real problem with the Russ is the cost vs damage output, but as the Guard codex lacks anything better in the Russ's role, you have to keep using it.

How so? I don't own half the models to make a vanilla list work. It's not just changing to vanilla that magically makes everything better. All the units that make vanilla great BA don't get at all, so I don't own the models. You're conceding that you have no ideas with the actual BA codex and are just trying to be a smart ass about it.

I'm done with the Russ thing. Keep using them, and keep losing. You need points for air cav and outflankers. Taking objectives is your admitted problem. Air cav and outflankers do that for you. Russes don't. I've tried every viable unit in the BA codex. You haven't done the same with IG. I've seen DA players almost flip the table out of frustation from the 6 psyker build. It doesn't matter if you don't like it. I'm playing one of the worst lists in the game and I don't particularly fear Russes. That should tell you something.

Orks, CSM, and Tyrannids are all pretty poor.

I would say Blood Angels, but the recent FAQ gave their Dreadnoughts a few extra attacks. They're all fixed, now.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
How so? I just made a suggestion that will allow you to continue to play your BA

No, you told him to go play Codex: Space Marines.

I guess I can just tell you to quit complaining and go proxy as Renegades and Heretics then?

I mean, yeah, sure, why not?

Its really the logical thing.

As a guard player as well, I fully intend to use the 30k militia rules to run beefed up grenadier squads and rapier platforms. I think it'd be valid advice for someone to tell me to play a different army list/codex that is basically the same thing and/or already WYSIWYG with my current models.

Which is why I'm totally for merging all the marine books so we don't get nonsense where Red Emo Marines are somehow worse off when you could just decide to play them as Red non-Emo marines in a different book and already be 100% WYSIWYG with significantly better rules.

As for the worst codex, hard to say. I'm more of a fan of just more generic tiers, in which I'd find the likes of Guard and BA and the not-really-codices-but-GW-calls-them-that-anyways codices.

Problem is that there's a lot of units present in competitive vanilla lists that BA players just don't own.

Martel732 wrote:
Problem is that there's a lot of units present in competitive vanilla lists that BA players just don't own.

So... Gravturions? Seriously, what other marine unit is exclusive to the vanilla book that is competitive? For a gladius you already have razorbacks and generic marines, as well as librarians for conclaves, and bikers for bike stuff.

Grav devs, tfcs, assault cannon razors, etc

Martel732 wrote:


I'm done with the Russ thing. Keep using them, and keep losing. You need points for air cav and outflankers. Taking objectives is your admitted problem. Air cav and outflankers do that for you. Russes don't. I've tried every viable unit in the BA codex. You haven't done the same with IG. I've seen DA players almost flip the table out of frustation from the 6 psyker build. It doesn't matter if you don't like it. I'm playing one of the worst lists in the game and I don't particularly fear Russes. That should tell you something.

Your ignorance of the abilities of Vets in Valks is showing, as is your suggestion to use outflankers... which are Scout Sentinels.

3x Plasma Vets, in a Valk, runs almost 250 points, with no appreciable survivability. The Valk is useless as an anti-air platform, and absolutely pathetic in its damage output. So you're paying 250 points to put a 105 point unit on the table on or about turn 3... by which point objectives are claimed and you're going to try to, what, not die when 3 marines assault you because they're right next to you?

Scout Sentinels? AV 10, Open topped, and 2 HP? Not for the price. I admit they're mobile, but they can't survive. They're 1.5 times the cost of a Jetbike, no ability to move quickly after arrival, and have a crappier gun. They're not even that much more survivable, if you work in the JB's save.

Your suggestions are laughable.

And seriously, I made the jump from BA to Vanilla with no problem at all. Death Company = Honour Guard or Vanguard Vets or whatever else you want that's choppy. After that, you can pick up a handful of models to "up the competitive". Or don't. To be honest, I can play a better assault army with BA models using Ultramarine tactics, without any SM exclusive models.

Doesn't make BA better, but it does make your models more competitive.

Again, the solutions to IG mobility would require you to spend your entire points on fast, mobile units so that they aren't picked off leaving you stuck in your DZ. At that point, you might as well play BA and go charging forth. You're going to do more damage [trust me] because IG's damage output goes to gak once you start moving. BA's might get their asses handed to them, but they still win more games than IG do. Their playstyle is more conducive to achieving the win conditions of 7th edition than IG's effective playstyle.

Any points spent on IG "mobility" are better spent in Allies. I started allying in BA to my IG in order to get some mobility. And then I kept allying in more BA, because I kept doing better. And then I started playing all BA... and then I switched to SM because they're straight-up better. That's the problem with Guard right now. You're better off spending your points on allies.

 greatbigtree wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


I'm done with the Russ thing. Keep using them, and keep losing. You need points for air cav and outflankers. Taking objectives is your admitted problem. Air cav and outflankers do that for you. Russes don't. I've tried every viable unit in the BA codex. You haven't done the same with IG. I've seen DA players almost flip the table out of frustation from the 6 psyker build. It doesn't matter if you don't like it. I'm playing one of the worst lists in the game and I don't particularly fear Russes. That should tell you something.

Your ignorance of the abilities of Vets in Valks is showing, as is your suggestion to use outflankers... which are Scout Sentinels.

3x Plasma Vets, in a Valk, runs almost 250 points, with no appreciable survivability. The Valk is useless as an anti-air platform, and absolutely pathetic in its damage output. So you're paying 250 points to put a 105 point unit on the table on or about turn 3... by which point objectives are claimed and you're going to try to, what, not die when 3 marines assault you because they're right next to you?

Scout Sentinels? AV 10, Open topped, and 2 HP? Not for the price. I admit they're mobile, but they can't survive. They're 1.5 times the cost of a Jetbike, no ability to move quickly after arrival, and have a crappier gun. They're not even that much more survivable, if you work in the JB's save.

Your suggestions are laughable.

And seriously, I made the jump from BA to Vanilla with no problem at all. Death Company = Honour Guard or Vanguard Vets or whatever else you want that's choppy. After that, you can pick up a handful of models to "up the competitive". Or don't. To be honest, I can play a better assault army with BA models using Ultramarine tactics, without any SM exclusive models.

Doesn't make BA better, but it does make your models more competitive.

Again, the solutions to IG mobility would require you to spend your entire points on fast, mobile units so that they aren't picked off leaving you stuck in your DZ. At that point, you might as well play BA and go charging forth. You're going to do more damage [trust me] because IG's damage output goes to gak once you start moving. BA's might get their asses handed to them, but they still win more games than IG do. Their playstyle is more conducive to achieving the win conditions of 7th edition than IG's effective playstyle.

Any points spent on IG "mobility" are better spent in Allies. I started allying in BA to my IG in order to get some mobility. And then I kept allying in more BA, because I kept doing better. And then I started playing all BA... and then I switched to SM because they're straight-up better. That's the problem with Guard right now. You're better off spending your points on allies.

I'm guessing you are in the pro-Russ camp, then?

I maintain my suggestions work fine against mid-tier and lower lists. Since that's all I'm claiming IG can compete against. Against Tau/Eldar/Superfriends/Necrons, they're really boned just like all the have-not codices.

"I can play a better assault army with BA models using Ultramarine tactics, without any SM exclusive models."

Only because of telepathy.

"Doesn't make BA better, but it does make your models more competitive."

Another vote for "change codex".

" They're 1.5 times the cost of a Jetbike, no ability to move quickly after arrival, and have a crappier gun."

Comparing anything to a scatbike is futile.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sorry, but Tyranids can't be the worst just because they have Fly rants and Mawlocs.

Is the codex poorly written? Absolutely. However it has tools to deal with anything outside maybe Wraithknights. Mawlocs are seriously good.

The codex doesn't have tools to deal with Wraithknights. They could when it wasn't a GC.

Mawlocs are good, but from my personal experience, they have a lot of possibility for error. The only way to guarantee things is by using Lictors, and even then that can be hit or miss.

The codex as a whole, outside those two units, is garbage. That's like saying CSM are good because of Oblits and Heldrakes.

I don't even think Obliterators are good anymore.

One unit does not a good codex make. But maybe three does?

Martel732 wrote:
That's not a BA list. If you have to swap out my codex for a list, you've already conceded the debate. And managed to work in your bitterness over C:SM. Well done.


Russes aren't survivable and their firepower is mediocre. They are slightly better land raiders. Obviously the Russ isn't getting it done or you wouldn't be complaining about losing to the worst lists in the game.

You aren't wrong but there is literally no alternative in the codex for semi mobile, semi durable ground based firepower. ALL your infantry are t3 and you have no access to relentless other than rolling on the mediocre Cadian warlord trait table and hoping for the best. Spending 70 points for a single t3, BS3, non relentless lascannon shot which makes the other 8 weapons in the squad useless (even in a blob) is madness. Russes are very good in a shootout if there are no D weapons flying around, can move up to 6" and fire everything, can be kitted out for any role they need to fill, do not need to spend points on morale buffs, can tank shock, can ram, and so on. Though mediocre in the grand scheme of things, they are the best platforms we have for heavy weapons in the codex. Overpriced? Some variants perhaps, but a minimum platoon with no upgrades and 2 lascannons costs 170 points, with all of the drawbacks I listed above. A LR Vanquisher with a lascannon and 2 multimeltas costs 5 points less. The Russ is the best heavy weapons platform the Guard have.

In the Codex*

ExFideFortis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's not a BA list. If you have to swap out my codex for a list, you've already conceded the debate. And managed to work in your bitterness over C:SM. Well done.


Russes aren't survivable and their firepower is mediocre. They are slightly better land raiders. Obviously the Russ isn't getting it done or you wouldn't be complaining about losing to the worst lists in the game.

You aren't wrong but there is literally no alternative in the codex for semi mobile, semi durable ground based firepower. ALL your infantry are t3 and you have no access to relentless other than rolling on the mediocre Cadian warlord trait table and hoping for the best. Spending 70 points for a single t3, BS3, non relentless lascannon shot which makes the other 8 weapons in the squad useless (even in a blob) is madness. Russes are very good in a shootout if there are no D weapons flying around, can move up to 6" and fire everything, can be kitted out for any role they need to fill, do not need to spend points on morale buffs, can tank shock, can ram, and so on. Though mediocre in the grand scheme of things, they are the best platforms we have for heavy weapons in the codex. Overpriced? Some variants perhaps, but a minimum platoon with no upgrades and 2 lascannons costs 170 points, with all of the drawbacks I listed above. A LR Vanquisher with a lascannon and 2 multimeltas costs 5 points less. The Russ is the best heavy weapons platform the Guard have.

I think what I'm usually seeing is one div-buffed blob with 5 X autocannons and one with 5X lascannons. They are always ending up twin-linked and ignore cover between orders and psyker powers. These weapons can crack any non-LR transport and then the wyverns murder everything that had to emergency disembark. This is frighteningly effective a systematically scrubbing a gladius off the table.

T3 just isn't the liability it used to be with all the mass S6/7 flying around. S6 AP 4/5 kills approx the same point cost of marines and guardsmen. If the guardsmen get cover, it swings in their favor wildly. It's even worse if the S6/7 is AP 3. You can moan about bolters, but most non-Gladius lists minimize this terrible weapon. And it is terrible because of the numbers in which it is fielded and the cost per model of the wielders.

" A LR Vanquisher with a lascannon and 2 multimeltas costs 5 points less"

But can't receive some divination buffs and can't be given the good orders.

" no D weapons flying around,"

Half my games have D-weapons. The Wraithcannons, the Stormsurge or reaper chainswords.

Martel, you can't have it both ways.
You can't sit back and claim that "IG are fine vs. the other bottom rung books", and then turn around and claim that BA's are the single worst book of all time because YOU only play against list tailored/top tier BS.

Vs. the other 'have-not' books, BA's (post FAQ boost) are now easily the best off of the lower tier along side Tyranids & superfriends IG.

Now, discounting allies entirely, (ie: "parent codex only" lists), you could probably rank the main books about;

God Tier (ie: super easy mode)
- Eldar

Top Tier (ie: can still win top spot in Tournaments)
- Vanilla Marines

Upper-mid Tier (ie: very difficult to outright win a Tournament, but typically will always play kingmaker/spoiler)
- Tau
- Chaos Daemons
- Decurion Necrons
- Thundercav + Murderpack Space Wolves
- Ravenwing shenanigan Necrons
- Khornekin

Middle Tier
- Flyrant spam Tyranids
- general Loyalist Marine lists (Vanillas/SW/DA/probably DW)
- Grey Knights
- Covens/Venom spam DE
- Mechanicus
- Ork "Tournament level" list
- Dread/Drop Pod spam BA's
- IG 'Cadicurion'/Vet spam/Psyker blobs

Lower-Mid Tier
- Blood Angels
- IG
- Tyranids
- DE
- MSU'd MoN spam CSM's

Garbage Tier
- Orks
- non-MoN CSM's

BA aren't good even against middle tier codices. That aren't even good vs CSM, despite your protests. They are about the same. CSM and BA both lack model count and shooting efficacy. (The more I play with grav guns, the more I despise them) And to a certain extent, lack assault efficacy for models that survive shooting.

Drop pod BA's are actually weaker than a generic BA list, because it completely wastes their inherent speed. Drop pods are not a panacea against 5th ed veterans. I go as far to say that non-skyhammer drop pod marines are actually a poor list. They drop in, shoot once, and then die miserably. Marines are too expensive to suicide in a piece-mealed fashion.

The FAQ "boost" for BA is a red herring to fool players like yourself. Don't kid yourself; that fragnought is still going to be hull pointed out like chump against remotely competent opponent, rendering the attack boost moot. BA scouts are still largely useless because we don't get land speeder storms.

Arguing about what codex is the lowest tier is as silly as which IPA Beer is the worst. They're all bitter, they all suck.

 kronk wrote:
Arguing about what codex is the lowest tier is as silly as which IPA Beer is the worst. They're all bitter, they all suck.

I for one happen to like India Pale Ales, Alexander Keiths is good and many cottage industry breweries make good ones too

But yeah I mean somewhat contributed to this earlier, I did also state that it had become somewhat cyclical. Overall there is quite a few codices that need reworking and one of the worst is Chaos Space Marines, followed by a lot of the others mentioned.

i can agree that CSM need a rework over BA just due to chronology. That will make the BA officially the worst, I think. Even worse than Orks. At least Orks are a bit counter meta.

Martel732 wrote:
i can agree that CSM need a rework over BA just due to chronology. That will make the BA officially the worst, I think. Even worse than Orks. At least Orks are a bit counter meta.

and on and on and on and on...

Experiment 626 wrote:
Martel, you can't have it both ways.
You can't sit back and claim that "IG are fine vs. the other bottom rung books", and then turn around and claim that BA's are the single worst book of all time because YOU only play against list tailored/top tier BS.

Vs. the other 'have-not' books, BA's (post FAQ boost) are now easily the best off of the lower tier along side Tyranids & superfriends IG.

Now, discounting allies entirely, (ie: "parent codex only" lists), you could probably rank the main books about;

God Tier (ie: super easy mode)
- Eldar

Top Tier (ie: can still win top spot in Tournaments)
- Vanilla Marines

Upper-mid Tier (ie: very difficult to outright win a Tournament, but typically will always play kingmaker/spoiler)
- Tau
- Chaos Daemons
- Decurion Necrons
- Thundercav + Murderpack Space Wolves
- Ravenwing shenanigan Necrons
- Khornekin

Middle Tier
- Flyrant spam Tyranids
- general Loyalist Marine lists (Vanillas/SW/DA/probably DW)
- Grey Knights
- Covens/Venom spam DE
- Mechanicus
- Ork "Tournament level" list
- Dread/Drop Pod spam BA's
- IG 'Cadicurion'/Vet spam/Psyker blobs

Lower-Mid Tier
- Blood Angels
- IG
- Tyranids
- DE
- MSU'd MoN spam CSM's

Garbage Tier
- Orks
- non-MoN CSM's

If you're using certain builds to up the tiering, DE w/Covens can make some middle-upper middle tier lists with CTC and supporting units

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Martel, you can't have it both ways.
You can't sit back and claim that "IG are fine vs. the other bottom rung books", and then turn around and claim that BA's are the single worst book of all time because YOU only play against list tailored/top tier BS.

Vs. the other 'have-not' books, BA's (post FAQ boost) are now easily the best off of the lower tier along side Tyranids & superfriends IG.

Now, discounting allies entirely, (ie: "parent codex only" lists), you could probably rank the main books about;

God Tier (ie: super easy mode)
- Eldar

Top Tier (ie: can still win top spot in Tournaments)
- Vanilla Marines

Upper-mid Tier (ie: very difficult to outright win a Tournament, but typically will always play kingmaker/spoiler)
- Tau
- Chaos Daemons
- Decurion Necrons
- Thundercav + Murderpack Space Wolves
- Ravenwing shenanigan Necrons
- Khornekin

Middle Tier
- Flyrant spam Tyranids
- general Loyalist Marine lists (Vanillas/SW/DA/probably DW)
- Grey Knights
- Covens/Venom spam DE
- Mechanicus
- Ork "Tournament level" list
- Dread/Drop Pod spam BA's
- IG 'Cadicurion'/Vet spam/Psyker blobs

Lower-Mid Tier
- Blood Angels
- IG
- Tyranids
- DE
- MSU'd MoN spam CSM's

Garbage Tier
- Orks
- non-MoN CSM's

If you're using certain builds to up the tiering, DE w/Covens can make some middle-upper middle tier lists with CTC and supporting units

Also, which book is "Mechanicus?" If it's only the tripple-book formation, then honestly I'd push it up at least to upper-middle, and if it's all the three books individually, then I think calling them all the same power ranking is a bit of a broad brush... Not complaining about my book (which is mono-Skitarii, since it has been questioned a few times.) Just seeing some inconsistencies in how things are grouped. Skitarii has to take help from the other two to get a ranking (which I think is fully fair,) but BA having to take anything from SM is met with such screaming of bloody murder that you could replace your Grav guns with Martel's voice and achieve the same power.

It's not my ranking.

And it matters a lot that the mechanicus codices are not strictly superior to each. Ie, there's a reason to run one of them and ally in the others. There's no reason at all to ever touch BA, either as an ally or as a main force.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not my ranking.

And it matters a lot that the mechanicus codices are not strictly superior to each. Ie, there's a reason to run one of them and ally in the others. There's no reason at all to ever touch BA, either as an ally or as a main force.

By that reasoning there's no reason to play anything that isn't Eldar... ah forget it, why do I even bother. I'm gonna go have fun with the game instead of... whatever the hell this is.

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not my ranking.

And it matters a lot that the mechanicus codices are not strictly superior to each. Ie, there's a reason to run one of them and ally in the others. There's no reason at all to ever touch BA, either as an ally or as a main force.

By that reasoning there's no reason to play anything that isn't Eldar... ah forget it, why do I even bother. I'm gonna go have fun with the game instead of... whatever the hell this is.

Not precisely. Other codices don't get magically better by changing a name and a paint job. BA are codex compliant, and yet strictly inferior to all other codex compliant chapters. There's nothing BA have that vanilla marines don't also have, but only better. Tau have supersuits, Tyranids have big bugs, etc. So those are reasons to choose them over Eldar. There is no reason to ever touch the BA codex with the current vanilla codex.

 SwampRats45MK wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Arguing about what codex is the lowest tier is as silly as which IPA Beer is the worst. They're all bitter, they all suck.

I for one happen to like India Pale Ales, Alexander Keiths is good and many cottage industry breweries make good ones too

Sorry, but I've tried dozens of IPAs. I just don't like the extra bitterness. It's bourbon for me or GTFO!

Back on Topic, I hope my Chaos Space Marines get a codex with some formations.

I converted all my Blood Angels to Vanilla Marines and I still think Blood Angels are better off than Orks.

Maybe I should convert my Orks to vanilla marines......

 SwampRats45MK wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Arguing about what codex is the lowest tier is as silly as which IPA Beer is the worst. They're all bitter, they all suck.

I for one happen to like India Pale Ales, Alexander Keiths is good and many cottage industry breweries make good ones too

Keiths? Really? Man, I moved from next door where you are out to Keiths home and I can't stand the stuff. Give me a proper lager or a real ale any day.

On topic, I think Orks are really suffering something fierce. I hardly even hear anyone talk about them anymore. Pretty sad given how awesome they are in the fluff.

 adamsouza wrote:
I converted all my Blood Angels to Vanilla Marines and I still think Blood Angels are better off than Orks.

Maybe I should convert my Orks to vanilla marines......

It's very debateable. Orks took a ton of nerfs, but suffer far less damage from something like an ion accelerator.

Notice how all of the bottom feeders are assault lists without the SW hotness of Wulfen or TWC.

 adamsouza wrote:
I converted all my Blood Angels to Vanilla Marines and I still think Blood Angels are better off than Orks.

Maybe I should convert my Orks to vanilla marines......

I'm considering playing my Chaos Marines as Space wolves. At least until a better codex comes out.

I can't believe this was essentially arguing about 2nd worst. Everyone seems to give CSM the nod as worst, and then argues about IG or BA.

Personally, I'd say it's probably
CSM -> Orks -> IG -> BA in terms of worst. IG and BA are hard to separate. Against the top tier codexes, I think BA do better. Against the mid to bottom tier, IG do better. Mainly this is because the top tier codexes just laugh at tanks to the point you might as well not have them, but, for example, Orks and Nids are still concerned about them being there.