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Hello there. I may be interested in starting; though I am not sure which Faction I'd like to play, I know I want something "flexible/toolboxish."

Atm, I am looking at some options with Menoth: Nice Solos, the Choir...and no Snipers or Marshals. Among some questions I have:
-Can friendly fire trigger Enliven? I figure I would want Kell Bailoch if I were to do Menoth seeing as they don't get snipers. Enliven triggers on damage...he gets Sniper (1 guaranteed point). If this is legal, would the mostly-guaranteed move be worth the damage?
-Would it be worth taking him otherwise (solo-popping/etc)? After all, Menoth has no snipers.
-What are some combos/beginner tactics I should note, beyond good/bad units? I know the basics of balancing focus between jacks and spells, pop-n-drop, etc. Just general advice for a potential Menonithe :3
-Can Reclaimers allocate Focus to Mercenary Jacks? (Curious about this; doubt it matters).

Thanks.

As a rule, friendly fire never triggers abilities when you want it to. Kell's still a good choice, as he adds some great solo or UA busting capability to the Protectorate's otherwise meagre ranged options. As for general advice, get a Choir. Last question, no. The Reclaimer's ability reads Friendly Faction.

Also, love the Avatar, although I was always more of a Spartans player over the Hive.

Thanks for the clarification; I figured the Choir was a nobrainer as it stood.

Are there Menoth-available powers that can grant out-of-activation movement for ranged combat? Prior to learning otherwise, I had the "brilliant" (yeah right) idea of the eFeora+Bonded Redeemer for earlygame ranged incineration, the idea being if I could tag it afterwards, I could jump out of retaliatory range.

Aside from using meleejacks, what other tools are available to Menoth for hunting heavy Jacks/Beasts? And how do I counter ranged magic weapon armies or ones who can control movement (Rahn+Battlemages)?

Yang IMO is the most interesting leader in the series due to his...role as a self-practicing collectivist Tyrant. HE'd probably make a good Skorne expy

If you like any of the exemplar units Dartan Villmon is your man. he is the best solo in the game when it comes to defending your knights. Also you will need a crusader and a castigator they are two very good reliable jacks. The avatar is also a good start too dont bother with the menoth light jacks they get smashed and are expensive.

lukie116 wrote:If you like any of the exemplar units Dartan Villmon is your man. he is the best solo in the game when it comes to defending your knights. Also you will need a crusader and a castigator they are two very good reliable jacks. The avatar is also a good start too dont bother with the menoth light jacks they get smashed and are expensive.

Vilmon doesn't do anything for Exemplar...

Vilmon is a commander, meaning leadership if my warcaster cannot lead, no? That and fighty...

Do the Reckoner and Vassal go hand-in-hand? Doubleflare or flare-and-run? Scoot-and-shoot or setting up a run?

MagicJuggler wrote:Thanks for the clarification; I figured the Choir was a nobrainer as it stood.

Are there Menoth-available powers that can grant out-of-activation movement for ranged combat? Prior to learning otherwise, I had the "brilliant" (yeah right) idea of the eFeora+Bonded Redeemer for earlygame ranged incineration, the idea being if I could tag it afterwards, I could jump out of retaliatory range.

Aside from using meleejacks, what other tools are available to Menoth for hunting heavy Jacks/Beasts? And how do I counter ranged magic weapon armies or ones who can control movement (Rahn+Battlemages)?

Yang IMO is the most interesting leader in the series due to his...role as a self-practicing collectivist Tyrant. HE'd probably make a good Skorne expy

Off the top of my head, I'm not really aware of much in the way of out of activation movement in the Protectorate, barring the Vassal's Enliven. As for your eFeora/Bonded Redeemer idea, it's probably the best choice for her bonded Warjack, simply to spread fire across a good portion of the enemy's army in preparation for her feat. With the long range, it doesn't really need to move a heck of a lot tbh.

If you're sticking with eFeora, a Devout's probably a good choice. You want to keep a warjack close to her for the Escort bonus, and Shield Guard's a nifty bonus. Defensive Strike isn't what it once was, but it's still rather handy for taking down the occasional pesky infantry model.

Your primary jack-hunters will tend to be heavy warjacks (with lights generally relegated to infantry control and tech pieces), but Knights Exemplar supply a rather hefty punch. Zealots also do a surprising amount of damage to low defense targets.

Menoth doesn't really have too much in the way of hard casting counters (barring the Covenant, which does it rather well). If you need to prevent spell assassination, the Devout's not a bad choice again, as it can hand out Sacred Ward to your warcaster at the price of a single Focus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MagicJuggler wrote:Vilmon is a commander, meaning leadership if my warcaster cannot lead, no? That and fighty...

Do the Reckoner and Vassal go hand-in-hand? Doubleflare or flare-and-run? Scoot-and-shoot or setting up a run?

Commander honestly doesn't come up nearly as much as it did in Mk1. It's occasionally handy when you have low Leadership infantry hanging about in proximity to Abominations, but a lot of Menoth's go-to choices (Exemplar, for instance) are Fearless, and Terror doesn't come up as much as you'd think (especially when you're playing Feora, where you've got hordes of Jacks and typically some Flameguard with UA). He's rather hitty, but his defensive stats are somewhat uninspiring unless he's giving up movement or action. He's useful for baby-sitting important models, but expect him to die if he does anything but wait for the foe to come to him.

The Reckoner typically doesn't care as much about its gun as you'd think. While the hand cannon is nifty (especially in a faction with ready Choir access), its primary utility is to debuff the Reckoner's charge target when it assaults. With a threat range of 12" under eFeora, the Reckoner will often find itself charging into combat where it can do more damage, instead of shooting. Mind you, the Vassal is incredibly annoying still, as it forces the opponent to oneshot your jack or surround it, or else all he's done is set up its assault for next turn. That, and an extra swing with the club will rarely go unappreciated.

Laughing Man wrote:

lukie116 wrote:If you like any of the exemplar units Dartan Villmon is your man. he is the best solo in the game when it comes to defending your knights. Also you will need a crusader and a castigator they are two very good reliable jacks. The avatar is also a good start too dont bother with the menoth light jacks they get smashed and are expensive.

Vilmon doesn't do anything for Exemplar...

I think he's thinking about Gravus, the dragoon.

Reznik is the guy for out-of-activation movement. The thing about Reznik is that his out of activation movement is almost 'Skornergy' in many respects.

Reznik has two abilities:

Witch Hound, which allows any model in your battlegroup (so Reznik and warjacks he controls, but not Avatar of Menoth) to make an advance+attack after being hit by a magic attack

Perdition, which is a R10 Pow10 spell that, if it causes damage to an enemy model, allows a warjack in his battlegroup (so not Avatar) to make an advance+attack.

The problems here in general are that:

Reznik is a 6 Foc caster, which is not very much for a guy looking to run 'jacks aggressively. He can create Wracks (free focus generators) by attacking, but the Wrack he creates has no focus for him to pull from until next turn. This means the Avatar of Menoth is an attractive warjack because it generates its own focus, but the Avatar is not in his battlegroup so Witch Hound and Perdition both have no effect. As a Foc6 warcaster, Reznik generally needs to spend a focus to boost either hit or damage, making it effectively a cost 3-4 spell, and because his control area is "only" 12", it's kinda easy for him to outrun Wrack support that you buy for early-game usage.

Add to that the Choir can be made to give spell immunity to all the Menoth warjacks, and you can pretty easily see how a lot of these abilities are counter intuitive.

I disagree about the reckoners gun.

I have killed warcasters with Reckoner + Choir + Vassel

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Enliven only triggers off enemy attacks.. and does not trigger from enemy attacks if advancing.

Vilmon is only good if your taking other paladins imo.. and then.. its best if your taking Harbinger.

--
To OP..

Choir is an Auto include, so is the vassel IMO.

Move a jack up, Enliven him, and if he gets charged by a enemy he moves back (Note:If an enemy jack/beast just powrattack knockdowns, you cant Enliven move)

Exemplar Errants is an amazing unit to look into.
Many many uses for self sacrifice.
Spell ward
Weapon masters
pathfinder
and ranged attacks..

Full Temple flameguard with defenders ward makes a hard to move Brick.

What warcasters are you intrested in ?

If you're interested in toolbox casters, you can basically pull straight from the 'internet top 4' of Menoth Warcaster rankings which (although arguably) tend to be:

Harbinger
pSeverius
pKreoss (or eKreoss, much argument happens here)
pFeora

Harby is an amazing assassination, denial, and warjack caster
pSevvy, like Harby, can 'do it all'. The big issue with both Harby and pSevvy is that their defensive stats are the consistency of soft cheese and you will be completely underwhelmed by your ability to take a hit. You need to have a plan for preventing either of them from being shot to death, especially by Mage Hunter Strike Force lists with Ravyn (Retribution of Scyrah faction).

pKreoss is only slightly harder to kill, but he has one of the best assassination feats in the game and offers good all-around utility and denial with his spell lists.

pFeora is actually fairly resilient with good defensive stats and a small base. She can be made into a holy terror of flaming destruction.

Above post is right on for a good start on casters.


Dont worry to much on being assasinated as Harby/psevvy.

Harby has a 20" Control area.. easy to stay waay back.
also can camp alot of focus..

She also hits hard in melee (surprise!) This weekend i charged Malik'Karn with Harby and killed him in melee.

Psevvy cant be targeted by spells (no spell assasination is nice) and has a larger control area + Defenders ward himself if needed in dire situations.

but yea.. If your going against MHSF + Ravyn.. take Feora or kreoss...

Even Kreoss (arm 14) will probably die to MHSF. ~8 shots hit, doing ~3 damage each... he's dead.

Really Reznik or Feora (the only ARM17 casters) are the only ones you want to go against MHSF with. Unless you feel good about your blast deviations.

Im not sure why i was thinking pKreoss had higher armor then that.

My bad :/

Hey there. I've been doing my homework so I heard a few things here and there (like I said, I am still deciding what to play/have playtested some Ret beforehand), and saw what Sevvy's Feat can do (or that stationary=godsend, hehe); that and the assorted casters have their "I make this unit better" specials independent of spells.

Suppose I wanted to run Menoth with a strong shooting element, or at least "enough" that I can deal with solos/support elements first. Having our own synergy units is nice, and ensuring the enemy doesn't negate it first is ideal...what would I do as far as range?
-Immediately, I see no spells that boost except among Sevvy (though Death Sentence looks nice). Am I missing anything else?
-Skirmishers and Errants are similarly-costed. Weaponmaster or Hunt, armor or CRA...I take Exemplars are generally better, no? Are Steelhead Rifles with Priest Attendant a viable substitute?
-If I want a Reckoner, I want a Vassal. If nothing else, Eye+Flares=Def denial.
-If I want to run ranged support over the course of the game as opposed to over a feat turn...are there any other casters worth working with? Or any other advice?
-Is the Vessel worth it?
-I forgot...are there powers or other abilities to reduce enemy CMD ratings?

There's very little that reduces CMD. I see where you're going here, but it's always going to be a fringe ability, being able to convert units or instil terror.

You have a couple options for shooting as a general approach offensive:

Vanquisher + Vassal + Focus Caster + Choir. Due to the strength of the Choir's buffs, Vanquishers are incredible combined arms jacks, capable of dealing pain at range (horrible, burning POW10 blast pain+cont fire) and still absolutely wreck face in melee. pKreoss, Harby and pSevvy make Vanqs work quite well by nature of a crapload of focus to run them. pSevvy does an amazing job with a further +1 hit/damage on top of Battle from choir. pKreoss makes assassinations ultra-accurate by virtue of a knockdown feat (require double 1's to miss a knocked down target). I would call this shooting module the third most powerful in game (second only to eLylith or Siege on feat turn), and actually better against 'soft' targets, but it's all Fire subtype and some models can be given blanket immunity to Fire. This makes Vanq-shooting matchup prone, and therefore not something you can base your game around 100% (although Harby and pKreoss both can remove buffs that give fire immunity).

Idrians are simply not as appealing, at their points costs, as Errants. Errants can deal with any threat, including incorporeal ones, Idrians by contrast lose a lot of tarpit and cc ability to give you a CRA laser. Single target, high damage is not really something that Menoth needs.

Also, remember that this is WM/H, not 40k. The game will be won or lost in melee; you only need your shooting to be good 'enough' to weaken your opponent to the point that your melee overwhelms them. And yes, there's exceptions to this, pKreoss being one of them, but there will be plenty of lists you run up against that look at your shooting and laugh. The beauty of Menoth shooting is that it's still on powerful melee models (Errants, heavy warjacks).

Fire-immune stuff from what I saw included Assault Kommandoes, a lot of Trollblood stuff (or they have the ability to throw off continual effects like nothing else), and other Menoth players. This "I am immune to your damage type" is why I feel iffy about running Feora in her epic incarnation (that, and some armies may just lack the models to *have* targets worth going for the "EXTRA FOCUS" feat. I don't like playing-to-matchup).

I always ran "enough" shooting in 40k armies for purposes of "I stun this vehicle/I force checks on small shooty support unit A/B/C/D."

Am I missing a major difference in the Vanq-versus-Reckoner (larger blast/flame by default+Thresher, versus defense-lowering/assault/higher base power?).

As far as melee-versus-shooting...how so? I take it's because:
-Can buy extra melee attacks.
-More buffs in the game for buffing Str+Pow/MAT versus RAT.
-Nonjacks can boost damage on the charge.
-There's...one shooty Weaponmaster in the game?
-There are more defense-modifiers or wards against shooting rather than against melee.

By contrast, shooting is harder (relative) to screen against, with models having a tradeoff between having armor (in which case they're bait for continual effects) or Stealth (in which case they're blastbait). Also, unlike 40k, there isn't a "one unit can only engage one other unit" rule, and some armies have units that can emulate Overwatch tactics by dropping suppression markers (we get...wall of flame. Yeah...)

Are there any other things I'm missing? Or how far off the mark am I?

MagicJuggler wrote:
Am I missing a major difference in the Vanq-versus-Reckoner (larger blast/flame by default+Thresher, versus defense-lowering/assault/higher base power?).

The vanq excels at clearing units or shooting models up to 14" away, blasts can get around stealth, and it can beat face in melee. The Reckoner's big advantage is range, it can charge and shoot (with its assault rule), which gives it single target selection 20" away. Untyped damage lets it do damage to anyone. Reach gives it an extra 2" threat range over the Vanq, which is a big deal as Reach can allow a model to circumvent screens circumstantially. The debuff helps support your infantry a bit.

As far as melee-versus-shooting...how so? I take it's because:
-Can buy extra melee attacks.
-More buffs in the game for buffing Str+Pow/MAT versus RAT.
-Nonjacks can boost damage on the charge.
-There's...one shooty Weaponmaster in the game?
-There are more defense-modifiers or wards against shooting rather than against melee.

Partly because scenarios force you to play towards the middle of the table. Partly because in general the difference between shooting ranges and charging ranges is 1 turn (you get one shot, then you get charged). Partly because many armies can field significant chunks of armies that are partially immune to shooting in some way. Many warnouns/units can find a way to be immune to blast damage, or damage types, or have stealth, or block LOS, or are simply immune to normal shooting or spells. Shooting is also generally lower POW, 12-16, so it can't crack heavies before the heavy arrives and starts beating face.

Are there any other things I'm missing? Or how far off the mark am I?

You've pretty much got the theory, I'd say you should just start playing the game. Remember that the game isn't really balanced (although eminently playable) at lower point levels. Assassination casters will simply do better when there are few models on the table, and support casters will be worse.

Speed 5 Reckoner gives it a SPD 5 +3"Charge +2" REach for a 10" charge range.

Also, you can Declare a charge at a model outside your charge range, and still Shoot them before your activation ends.

So can target warcaster 20" away.

Choir him, Charge + Shoot gives you an effective 20" range shot, then move vassel up and shoot again at the target.

Now this isnt something you want to do every game, but it can be helpful.

As for fire, ive yet to run into that much that i cant light on fire.. even in menoth.. there isnt a TON of things that are immune.

Feora is one of our top Tier casters for sure.

Look at pFeora. Cast Engine of destruction for 1 (Using Hierphant)

SPD 8, Mat 10.. 2x PoW 17 melee attacks and 2 spray 8's..

ouch... not to mention what her feat does to enemy infantry.

Here's one I want to test out sometime. Comment/critique?

pSeverius: (+6 Jack Points)
-Vigilant: 4
-Revenger: 6
-Reckoner: 8

Choir of Menoth: 3
Deliverers: 5
6 Exemplar Errants: 5
-Officer and Standard: 2

Gorman: 2
Vassal: 2
Covenant of Menoth: 2
Errant Seneschal: 2

All jacks fight (or slam, or act as a bullet-curtain). Additonally, some general doctrine as follows:

Gorman and the Vigilant are a disruption team more-or-less. Gorman is fire/corrode-immune, and the Vigilant saves him from blasty-death; both in turn can be effectively 'immune to range,' either by stealth+screening, or Hymn of Passage. Open-fists give additional options ("Armlock my Reckoner that it cannot be pushed back or Reapered into the waiting arms of the Withershadow Combine") of course.

The Revenger is there mostly to add range to Death Sentence. I considered Blessing, but Admonition takes too much focus. Then again...should I just swap out for a Crusader? Given the costs of allocating Focus for boosts, Eye of Menoth, etc, as well as the prospect of the being immune to debuffs (spell wards and such), it seems like the power is for finishing off units that get up-close anyway, rather than for earlygame shooting...

Covenant is mostly there for anti-knockdown, or to let the Errants light some stuff/annoy tough things ("Ok, make *two* tough rolls, one in your maintenance phase."), and the Vassal is either slaved to the Reckoner (second shot), used to enliven the Revenger, or occasionally used as another bullet (this is a last resort of course).

Thoughts?

Spyder68 wrote:Also, you can Declare a charge at a model outside your charge range, and still Shoot them before your activation ends.

Doesnt activation end immediatly upon failing the charge?

MoD_Legion wrote:

Spyder68 wrote:Also, you can Declare a charge at a model outside your charge range, and still Shoot them before your activation ends.

Doesnt activation end immediatly upon failing the charge?

Assault specifically says that you're allowed to shoot before making
the melee attack, which means that you shoot before checking
for melee range.

I find the best units for menoth are the Exemplar errants w/UA get this unit it is awesome on the board. 4 dice on a charge (only pow 9) but killing a model they get to shoot if they are not in combat.
Also Temple flame guard and UA are great CMA make them hit what they need and do the damage to take it out.
the merc I always take is the piper or ord, great for the points.
My reclaimer lets my Reckoner fire after turn 2 or 3 with out my warcasters focus and great help. I like to keep him behind the templeflame guard later in turns with at least one focus and soulstorm can kill ranked up units quick.
wracks give my warcaster the extra focus he needs per turn.
vassal makes the reckoner better.
I have had 2 caster kills with a daughters unit on eKreoss's feat turn, they can do up to 18 damage as the feat auto hits and the daughters auto do one damage.

I...am reading what units do, and how rules interact. So I know 'wot is wot'. Points are *tight* at 35 though, but that goes without saying.

Anyway, another edit:

pSeverius: +6
-Redeemer: 6
-Vigilant: 4
-Reckoner: 8

Choir: 2
Small Cleanser unit: 5
Full Errant unit+UA: 10

Gorman: 2
Covenant: 2
Vassal of Menoth: 2

Total Points: 35

Dropped the seneschal for now; hunter is nice but cleansers help too. Also, it's a single target for defender's ward. Am contemplating if it's possible to add him back though...

Eye is an upkeep, Defender's Ward to Errants. Rest float between jacks or Vision (keep the Vassal chuggin'). I gave up on the Piper, as I am not a 'rely on tough to save me type' (I'd...rather hit first, or minimize returning damage). Covenant has more offensive applications too (like letting my Errants burn tough models for double-tests), as well as the ward against being KD'd.

Redeemer is there because earlygame, having boostable blasts effects for vaping officers/solos has its place ("Sorry, but your marshaled defender no longer snipes") and they can help with punching slammed or collateral'd enemy models.... That or it can save the Vigilant from being tarpitted. Plus it gives another enliven target should the reckoner be rendered 'mostly armless' (ITS JUST A FLESH WOUND!).