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I'm not saying that the shape of the Hanomag's front is a fascist design. I'm saying that the designers/engineers at Hanomag who designed the 251 et al may well have been Nazis.

More to the point, and the point that you keep trying to pretend isn't a thing - these are just toy soliders that are straight-up sci-fi versions of Third Reich hardware. To think that you can safely sidestep those comparisons by painting the flag a different colour and writing "no Nazis" in the fluff is self-delusion at best.

The point I'm trying to make is that technology is agnostic; it has no beliefs other than what those who use it put behind it. To say "they're space Nazis because they use the same vehicle designs" or "they're space Nazis because of their iconography" is ignorance, which is in large part to blame for how the evil people in question were able to do so much harm.

Neither their iconography or designs are inherently "pro-Nazi" or even "Nazi-inspired." The Hanomag was designed to facilitate biltzkrieg which was the German implementation of proposed British battle doctrine from their WWI experiences (going back to the battlefield really doesn't care about politics). In my view, which obviously is just as much opinion as someone who thinks non-smoking programs are pro-Nazi because Hitler started them, a weapon of war has no political leanings if it's used on the battlefield.

If the vehicles/weapons had been designed with the extermination of Jews or the promotion of National Socialism in mind, I could see an argument. They were designed to fulfill a battlefield need, and they could (and did) fulfill the exact same role in the arsenals of other nations. It'd be the same as ascribing Communism to the AK-47; yes a Communist designed it and more Communists built it, but the AK-47 has probably played a role in establishing just as many theocracies and tribal hegemonies which are both anathema to the Communist ideal as it has Communists states.

Speaking of Communist states...what has China said lately about having everything wrapped up soon?

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. While I like the designs and models, I see the clear link to the Reich despite the "fluff" justification for the use of neo-Nazi-era German hardware.

While I think that most people would agree with me, that's no matter - If you'd prefer to have them and their designs have no association with the Reich in your mind/personal take on it, then all the best to you. After all, my Orks have no relationship to Fungi and the term "Mon-Keigh" doesn't exist in my own take on 40k.

And China is about as Communist as the Nazis were Socialist.

 Azazelx wrote:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. While I like the designs and models, I see the clear link to the Reich despite the "fluff" justification for the use of neo-Nazi-era German hardware.

While I think that most people would agree with me, that's no matter - If you'd prefer to have them and their designs have no association with the Reich in your mind/personal take on it, then all the best to you. After all, my Orks have no relationship to Fungi and the term "Mon-Keigh" doesn't exist in my own take on 40k.

And China is about as Communist as the Nazis were Socialist.

Not to mention "Murderface McMurdersson" -_-

China said nyet.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
For UK residents, you can pick up a couple of bargains at Northstar miniatures

28mm Leviathan Mortis £44 (will only ship to UK)
http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=5806

15mm Leviathan Crusader £28
http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=5809

Thanks for that! looks like I'll have my 28mm mortis way before I get my 15mm one

I want to apologize to everyone for the last two pages. I meant my remark only as a pseudo-pedantic comment, based on Mark's fluff. I did not want to get anyone's panties in a bunch over toy soldiers.

Report to the Penance Cube in your best Penitent attire - STAT!

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Space Krauts, if we want to be precise. They never had the opportunity to form the nazi party. Who knows which symbol from an alien culture they were able to subvert instead of the swastika...

Makes me want to paint The Artist's symbol on my troops, just for gaks and giggles.

You are talking about fluff written after the fact to justify the visually-obvious space nazis without actually making them nazis.

Really? Do you have direct confirmation from Mark as to what his design process and influences were?

You can't be serious. The minis are the evidence.

Or are you insulting Mark Mandragon by saying he is so incredibly stupid as to design space Stormtroopers as Star Wars (based on nazis) stormtroopers with coal-scuttle helmets and WW2 gear--because he just couldn't brain out a way to make his krauts not look like nazis? That would be pretty damn stupid.

Look, this is a guy who clearly built not-Titans for 40k and followed it up by wanting troops who would be not-[something popular]. The two most iconic bad guy armies in pop culture are Star Wars and the nazis. You don 't need a diagram to see how he fused the two for maximum badass/profit. I'd be more offended if he was clueless enough to use the coal-scuttles et. al. without meaning to evoke the imagery of nazi bad guys.

Thye fluff is all about WW1 so Mark won't get angry phone calls, and that's fair. No one reasonable thinks he's a nazi sympathizer because he used a cool design for his stormtroopers--just a smart business man. I'd be disappointed if he didn't have the chutzpah to go for the gold with his not-IG fighting in the not-"bloodiest regime imaginable."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I want to apologize to everyone for the last two pages. I meant my remark only as a pseudo-pedantic comment, based on Mark's fluff. I did not want to get anyone's panties in a bunch over toy soldiers.

Why apolohise for the liveliest thing to happen in this thread in months? At least we're not still discussing China.

PS: What do you think China would say to my proposal for a box of Chinese skeletons and virtuous Japanese soldiers?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It worries me greatly that I can't remember if I received my 15mm Mortis. Have they and/or the other 15mm weapon arms gone out yet?

15mm Mortis and 15mm weapon arms have not gone out yet, despite being done for some time...

They're waiting on the other unfinished items to be ready to ship, unfortunately. (Unfortunate for me, since that's all I'm waiting on, or rather all the folks who took over the remainder of my pledge are waiting on!)

Still glad to have supported this, though- hard plastic outside of GW is a worthy cause! Just requires a much longer lead time estimate than originally thought

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

PS: What do you think China would say to my proposal for a box of Chinese skeletons and virtuous Japanese soldiers?

I'd say I've got just the Nazi for the job!

I did look for the inspiration for the guns used by the coal scuttle helm wearing troops. Yes the rifles look inspired by the Rheinmetall MG-42 and the FG-42 for the Paratroopers of WW-2. the SMG however seems very plain and practical of design, and I looked hard for the inspiration. It is like a cross between old style SMGs and a modern day MP design. the Panzerfists are also looking as they are, but also, the documentary on design of war pointed that the Germans were using the design theories of Bauhuas Institute of design, where form and function were integrated, yet also to look good and intimidating in combat.

The Old Warzone Hussars had a coal scuttle with gas mask/visor and the spike from the pidklehaube, now that is scar as it means they can beat as well as stab you with their helmets!

Now while the helmet of Marks' troopers does look very much like the coal scuttle, and even the fire fighters of modern Germany were using the design till the 1980's at least, it does have this extra plate of armor? on the forehead which shows a slight design change from the WW-1 and 2 design.

The Hanomag and variants are yes, wheeled version based on the half-track of WW-2, and the flyng/tracked STuG are based on the WW-2 SPG.

His titan design thousgh is different, but seems inspired by a giant teutonic knight for the faceplate inspiration,

I would say it is up to the player as to what political system presently runs their Eisenkern, but it says Eisenkern Empire on Marks' map, so I thnk vestiges of the old WW-1 type is there. and they do have a great enemy to deal with as the shadokesh are truly nasty baddies based on their fluff

WZ Bauhaus went out of their way to be Space-Pre-Nazi-Germany. Mark's Sturmabteilung and their gear are full-on WW2 with a few tweaks. Putting a flower on their hat (or a Star Wars Stormtrooper's faceplate) doesn't change that fundamental, no matter how much some people want to believe. Same deal with the vehicles such as the 251 and Stug.


Now the Leviathan doesn't follow that design philosophy, and the various heavy and close combat troopers don't either (excepting the Stahlhelm options), but it is the core of more than a few kits.

WZ was all about Corporations in charge of Humanity and how badly they bunged it up. Like release of the Dark Soul and the Dark Legion to play

That's some good sounding progress! Approval for all bar one last mould split.

Update #138 - Sep 15 2014

Almost there.....
We made some great progress, final file approval and mold split has been completed for all kits but the command squad. Off to layout and machining for the two APC upgrade kits and the female Stormtroopers. I would expect to see some T1 shots for all but the last remaining kit by the end of next week and do a test build vs the instructions shortly after.


I am working my way through box art and instructions and have some eye candy for your viewing pleasure.




Full size images can be found here: http://dreamforge-games.blogspot.com/2014/09/box-art-renders-for-eisenkern-apc-and.html

We are still shooting for a late October KS fulfillment and a November retail.

All the best!

Mark

Almost there.....
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We made some great progress, final file approval and mold split has been completed for all kits but the command squad. Off to layout and machining for the two APC upgrade kits and the female Stormtroopers.

I would expect to see some T1 shots for all but the last remaining kit by the end of next week and do a test build vs the instructions shortly after.



I am working my way through box art and instructions and have some eye candy for your viewing pleasure.





Full size images can be found here: http://dreamforge-games.blogspot.com/2014/09/box-art-renders-for-eisenkern-apc-and.html

We are still shooting for a late October KS fulfillment and a November retail.

All the best!

Mark

6 weeks till late/the end of October. Anyone think there's actually chance of fulfilment happening by then?

That's so 3 seconds ago! Delivery no, but finished production? Possible? If they air ship it and it's got full priority now it might be possible.

I can see it being delivered to WGF Utah by the end of October if they air ship it, but I'm dubious of "plastic in my hands" by then. Still, progress is better than standing still and perhaps this is the one that doesn't hit snags.

Of course I'm in the same boat as a lot of folks where I got them to be not-IG for a while, now I don't really collect or play 40k anymore. Best-looking WarPath Corporation force maybe? We might have the models before Mantic launches that KS...

 Azazelx wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

PS: What do you think China would say to my proposal for a box of Chinese skeletons and virtuous Japanese soldiers?

I'd say I've got just the Nazi for the job!

You just redeemed this thread in my eyes. It's amazing how we can assume we know pretty much everything about an even and someone comes along and just shuts that down.

Liking the old established brick military or manufacturing walls the Zu Fuss is hiding in, witht he ultra modern/futuristic building in the far back ground.

November/December will be a very tasty time for me!

 Krinsath wrote:
I can see it being delivered to WGF Utah by the end of October if they air ship it, but I'm dubious of "plastic in my hands" by then. Still, progress is better than standing still and perhaps this is the one that doesn't hit snags.

Of course I'm in the same boat as a lot of folks where I got them to be not-IG for a while, now I don't really collect or play 40k anymore. Best-looking WarPath Corporation force maybe? We might have the models before Mantic launches that KS...

Thematically used as Imperial Guard in DeadZone for me, perhaps? I'm sure I'll resurrect 40k one day, but it won't be super soon...

 Azazelx wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

PS: What do you think China would say to my proposal for a box of Chinese skeletons and virtuous Japanese soldiers?

I'd say I've got just the Nazi for the job!

Wunderbar! He's such a mentsch, giving such naches to his bubbe and zaide. The other ubermenschen must be kvelling over their little nazileh.

But how am I going to fit him in fluff-wise with my (Eisenkern) Steel Panthers legion?

PS: So, he said nein on China's behalf? This meme is getting complicated. What we need is a flow-chart.

PPS: I'm glad the Valkirs have so many helmet options, so that we can have Stormtroopers in power armor as well as knights in spaaaaaace. Plus there will be female heads available, so we can have lady not-space marines.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
we can have lady not-space marines.

Let's not go crazy here now.

I think I am going to have to revise my opinion on those AG Stugs.

There are currently in service around the world helicopters with sensor units above the rotors. They can hover in cover with just the sensor unit exposed, lock on to a target, pop up, fire, and return to cover.

Now imagine that with a SPG

<All Quiet>

[Boom]

<Silence>

Pure Win.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
we can have lady not-space marines.

Let's not go crazy here now.

All I'm saying is that I am not sure I would want to live in a blood soaked, grimdark, totalitarian nightmare of a future that didn't have lady space marines.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
we can have lady not-space marines.

Let's not go crazy here now.

All I'm saying is that I am not sure I would want to live in a blood soaked, grimdark, totalitarian nightmare of a future that didn't have lady space marines.

That and the fact that the power armor seems very bulky enough to render normal gender marks of other games moot, the female heads would be possible at making the suits look different.

Possible, yes. But the resulting visit from paragons of orthopraxy would be... uncomfortable.

Just imagine someone caressing them fondly at a FLGS, whispering that "they have girls..."

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Possible, yes. But the resulting visit from paragons of orthopraxy would be... uncomfortable.

Just imagine someone caressing them fondly at a FLGS, whispering that "they have girls..."

That gets a bit odd for one to drool and act freaky over girls who are 28mm tall.

Then how do you explain Infinity's model range?

 Azazelx wrote:
Then how do you explain Infinity's model range?

They have cat-girls

 Azazelx wrote:
Then how do you explain Infinity's model range?

I suppose we have all kinds in our community