Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys.

I'm absolutely in love with the Cryx models, and I like what their playstyle has been described to me as (glass cannon, disrupting opponents with debuffs, etc.)

I haven't bought anything yet, but I'm not entirely sure I want to go with the battlebox because I don't know if I'm going to use most of the units in there.

I'm trying to get to 35 points, and here are the lists/strategies I'd like to try:

Warwitch Deneghra
-Nightwretch
-Nightwretch
-Deathjack
-Slayer
-Slayer
-Slayer
-Skarlock thrall

The idea here would be to just pound them with debuffs and overwhelming force. I dunno if using a list without infantry is advisable in this game though.

Lich Lord Asphyxious
-Cankerworm
-Nightwretch
-Deathjack
-Bane Thralls (max) with UA
-Bane Thralls (min)
-Bane Lord tartarus

I figured with his feat it's a good idea to load up on infantry but I'm worried abot my ability to deal damage since my only heavy hitter is the deathjack

My other idea is more of a hybrid between the two.
Iron Lich Asphyxious
- Cankerworm
- Nightwretch
- Nightwretch
- Bane Thralls (min) with UA
- Skarlock
- Deathjack
- Slayer

Thoughts?

1.
Warwitch Deneghra
-Nightwretch
-Nightwretch
-Deathjack
-Slayer
-Slayer
-Slayer
-Skarlock thrall

Thats propably the worst deneghra list you can build. Deneghra does not have enough focus to power more than 1 heavy jack and slayer without focus are terribly useless. ( To put it more clearly, she likes to use her focus for spells and it is usually better used for casting debuffs. Also remember that jacks without focus cant do much on their own)

Also Deneghra can turn everything into a heavy hitter, by just using her feat + parasite.
As a general rule pretty much all Cryx casters, but Mortenebra, run a maximum of 1 heavy jack. Some ( like Deneghra) are perfectly fine by just using arc nodes ( the nightwretches)

2.
Lich Lord Asphyxious
-Cankerworm
-Nightwretch
-Deathjack
-Bane Thralls (max) with UA
-Bane Thralls (min)
-Bane Lord tartarus

The deathjack is not your only heavy hitter. The Bane thralls are completly able to shred pretty much everything they touch. On top of that Cankerworm has armor piercing on one of its attacks and Asphyxious himself is able to crush stuff without to much of an effort. I dont really see the need for the min bane unit. It is generally better to bring a variety of stuff, than spamming the same unit/ jack over and over. I would rather look for some solos ( Warwicht Siren/Gorman di Wulfe...)
Other than that the list if pretty ok

3.
Iron Lich Asphyxious
- Cankerworm
- Nightwretch
- Nightwretch
- Bane Thralls (min) with UA
- Skarlock
- Deathjack
- Slayer

Get rid of the slayer. Asphyxious likes to use his focus himself. Bump up the Bane Thralls or add Tartarus. Sprinkle with other solos to taste ( Again a Warwitch siren or Gorman di Wulfe could be really helpful)
But the list is acutally quite nice

Can I just add in, it's nice to have a plan but play lower point games, like the battlebox, to begin with. Alot of the game revolves around the warcaster and their warjacks. You get the basics of their rules then expanding to infantry becomes easier.

You say you're unsure whether you'll use the stuff in the battlebox. Well you get one of the best warcasters in the game with a cheap heavy that can be used in different lists to great effect. Add in three light warjacks (with arc nodes) that will get your spells around easily and it becomes a great purchase in my opinion. I was just going to list warcasters that like arc nodes then I worked out it would be easier to do it the other way, these guys ain't too fused if they don't have an arc node:

Mortenebra
Goreshade 1+2
Terminus
Venethrax

Having listed them please realise that they can use arc nodes for specific reasons but none of them I would say need one.

The Deathjack is proclaimed by many to be the best jack for Cryx and I can't disagree. However, it is fragile and better at the 35 point level so you might want to wait to get that. Other than that, it's not a good idea to spam things as using a variety allows for some awesome synergies to appear.

Oh, and people may think that Cryx are overpowered, their not, but they can be vicious, enjoy ;D

See, this is why I come to you guys.

The reason I'm thinking I want to skip the battlebox is that the only models I really intend to use from it are the caster and the slayer. Are slayers any good? I really like the model but it seems like he's kind of vanilla.

I noticed that you seem to be preferring the nightwretches over the deathrippers. It's a good choice as it allows you to keep them out of melee and able to arc spells. But the deathrippers have sustained attack allowing a load of damage output if needed. It's a personal choice and with the battlebox being a cheaper way to start I would think it over.

A vanilla jack isn't a bad thing but it will require focus to beat up on things. So yes, I have chosen other things for those 6 points but you could add magnets to the arms and head then do the same to a heavy jack kit. That'll give you more options to put on the field.

Uh. Cryx is easily at face value the most powerful warmachine faction. There's really no debating that. You'll probably end up getting a lot of flak for playing Cryx since it's kind of considered a power faction that "That Guy" is normally drawn to.

That being said, it has some decent models in its line. Spamming Slayers is definitely pretty far from an OP list. I personally don't really like Slayers, but, they are quite good for what they do. Kind of fragile but that's true for basically any Cryx jack.

The DJ is commonly considered one of the best jacks in the game and an auto-include of sorts. I personally hate the model because I think it's really ugly. The arms seem entirely too busy to me, and its garishly proportioned, but hey to each their own.


Now for your lists, list #1 almost seems like some kind of crazy eSkarre or Coven list. eSkarre, Coven, and Mortenebra are Cryx's go-to options for running a pile of jacks.

It's important to remember that Deneghra is almost all about the spell assassination or debuffs. She lets her army do the killing in like, 90% of situations. With something like MAT 5 and POW 12 she's not going to be out there killing tonnes of casters on her own. That's why her battle box comes with x3 arc nodes and a heavy hitter.

The chicken jacks, or those arc nodes, are primarily about delivering spells. The presence of weapons on them is purely coincidental. If you're paying the extra points for a gun on each one, you're costing yourself a decent 2 point solo ( think warwitch siren ) for every 2. You could be taking the bitey chickens at a lower cost to fulfill the same key role. A smart opponent will be trying to destroy these key pieces ASAP, so, there's really no use in trying to keep them around as weapons platforms. ( not to mention they're jacks so they'll want focus to perform, which is better spent on spells or stuff. )



This is all just my opinion though. Play what appeals to you personally. =]

Well on the Battlebox:

Deneghra - is a great caster, one of the most feard in the game to be precise

Deathripper - A lot of the cryxian casters love arc nodes. While they are needed with all of them, they are useful for most of them. Deathrippers are cheap and can do quite some damge

Defiler - Its a more expensive arc node with a spray. Its not exactly used often, since its more expensive than the deathrippers and due to the mediocre RAT the spray will have hart time hitting most infantry

Slayer - The Slayer is the " basic" Cryxian heavy jack. Its pretty cheap and can dish out quite a lot of damage. The problem with this is, that it needs some focus from its caster to achieve that. Since most cryx casters want to use focus to cast spells, there often is not alot of focus that they want to give to the slayer.
Due to this the seether is generally more attractive, considering that while it is slightly more expensive, it has a higher MAT, can charge without spending focus and acutally generates a focus on its own!
Slayers are sometimes fielded with different casters, since they are cheap, but often other options are more interesting.

I look at it like this.

Battlebox of Deneghra, Slayer, Defiler, 2x Deathrippers = $50

Deneghra, Slayer purchased individually = $47

I will take 3 bonejacks for free, even if I don't think I will use them all.

I disagree with the naysaying of the Slayer.
With 3 initial attacks, and Denny's debuffs, it can lay the hurt.
If you can spare a couple focus for it, or get a warwitch siren to powerboost it, even better.

Seether is nice, but you are spending 50% more points for it than a Slayer, so you better get something out of it all game. It's also the easier to use option.
With the Slayer's cost, you can hold it back until the situation is perfect, then charge it 9" and get the assassination.
The way Denny can stack the debuffs makes any model great, so its more about how you use things.

skrulnik wrote:I look at it like this.

Battlebox of Deneghra, Slayer, Defiler, 2x Deathrippers = $50

Deneghra, Slayer purchased individually = $47

I will take 3 bonejacks for free, even if I don't think I will use them all.

I disagree with the naysaying of the Slayer.
With 3 initial attacks, and Denny's debuffs, it can lay the hurt.
If you can spare a couple focus for it, or get a warwitch siren to powerboost it, even better.

Seether is nice, but you are spending 50% more points for it than a Slayer, so you better get something out of it all game. It's also the easier to use option.
With the Slayer's cost, you can hold it back until the situation is perfect, then charge it 9" and get the assassination.
The way Denny can stack the debuffs makes any model great, so its more about how you use things.

Good point.

Side note: I might try hordes instead, since my wife isn't really into any of the WM factions. Is Legion of Everblight any good?

Legion is a great army with a good variety of builds it can bring to the table. They often ignore most rules or special abilities in the game, don't care about terrain or stealth, and they're just overall very cool.

Kirbinator wrote:Legion is a great army with a good variety of builds it can bring to the table. They often ignore most rules or special abilities in the game, don't care about terrain or stealth, and they're just overall very cool.

Is the Caster who looks like a ninja any good? (or the ninja-looking infantry?) I can't seem to find a PDF of the army book.

Ostrakon wrote:

Kirbinator wrote:Legion is a great army with a good variety of builds it can bring to the table. They often ignore most rules or special abilities in the game, don't care about terrain or stealth, and they're just overall very cool.

Is the Caster who looks like a ninja any good? (or the ninja-looking infantry?) I can't seem to find a PDF of the army book.

Which one? The Ninja Elf with Sword or the Ninja Elf with Throwing knives? Also, they're twins.

Looks like Rhyas, although Lylyth, The bigger Thagrosh, Kallus, and Bethane/Belthegor all look like dudes I would like to field. I really like the Blighted Swordsman models as well.

As far as warbeasts go, it looks like the Nephilim Protector, Carnivean, Scythean, and Angelius all look pretty cool too. Are they any good?

Rhyas is usually considered one of the weaker legion casters, but much like cryx she is being compared to excellent casters so she's really not bad. Her sister is one of those excellent casters.

Side note: I might try hordes instead, since my wife isn't really into any of the WM factions. Is Legion of Everblight any good?

Hordes and warmachine are compatible. You can play Wm and she can play hordes. In fact that is how I started. My friend played hordes and I learned form him.



As for the battlebox question, While it is a cheap way to get alot of models you may not use all the models long term. If you know you want nightwretches and deathjack there is nothing wrong with buying them along with your caster of choice. It's all about how much money you want to invest in the game while you learn. If you are comfortable dropping $100+ bucks to get started then go for it. I won the cryx starter as a door prize. Otherwise I may have gone the direct route. I was on the fence up till that point.

Mordekiem wrote:

Side note: I might try hordes instead, since my wife isn't really into any of the WM factions. Is Legion of Everblight any good?

Hordes and warmachine are compatible. You can play Wm and she can play hordes. In fact that is how I started. My friend played hordes and I learned form him.



As for the battlebox question, While it is a cheap way to get alot of models you may not use all the models long term. If you know you want nightwretches and deathjack there is nothing wrong with buying them along with your caster of choice. It's all about how much money you want to invest in the game while you learn. If you are comfortable dropping $100+ bucks to get started then go for it. I won the cryx starter as a door prize. Otherwise I may have gone the direct route. I was on the fence up till that point.

I don't really want to buy two rulebooks though, and deal with weird cross-game rules interactions. How different are the rules?

Ostrakon wrote:

Mordekiem wrote:

Side note: I might try hordes instead, since my wife isn't really into any of the WM factions. Is Legion of Everblight any good?

Hordes and warmachine are compatible. You can play Wm and she can play hordes. In fact that is how I started. My friend played hordes and I learned form him.



As for the battlebox question, While it is a cheap way to get alot of models you may not use all the models long term. If you know you want nightwretches and deathjack there is nothing wrong with buying them along with your caster of choice. It's all about how much money you want to invest in the game while you learn. If you are comfortable dropping $100+ bucks to get started then go for it. I won the cryx starter as a door prize. Otherwise I may have gone the direct route. I was on the fence up till that point.

I don't really want to buy two rulebooks though, and deal with weird cross-game rules interactions. How different are the rules?

Essentially the same. The only major difference are Warbeasts, their Animi, and how Warlocks and Fury works.

Apart from that, movement, attacks and the like are the same rules.

Animi ( spells that warbeasts have ) and Fury + Warlocks ( the HORDES version of Focus ) are the only functional differences.

Otherwise the rules play exactly the same. Abilities that effect warjacks or warbeasts specify the way they do so in their entry.

Ostrakon wrote:I don't really want to buy two rulebooks though, and deal with weird cross-game rules interactions. How different are the rules?

The rule books are nearly identical. So close that most rules can be found in the other rulebook on the same page! As said the main differences in warlocks w/ fury and beasts vs warcasters with focus and warjacks. And the main rulebooks are the cheapest part of the game.

And truthfully, as you start playing people you will probably want to know how both work anyways for when you go up against the other side. May be slightly more complicated to learn both systems as you learn, but I did it. And since we have a mix of WM/H in our group my friends have been learning both as well.

That said, if you are on a budget the best way to get into the game is to buy one rulebook and two battleboxes for that book. You mentioned alternate routes for starting, though, so I assumed that your budget was a bit larger as that is a more expensive, though perhaps more effective long term, way to start.

If you want the most cost effective way to get started it would be the two player battlebox. You get two 20+ point armies and a rulebook and a few other goodies for the cost of two regular battleboxes. Of course, the only one available right now is the menoth/Khador one. I heard rumors of a horde version, but it probably will not be any time soon.

If you are interested in going the Hordes route, it's up to you on the battle box for Legion. Must like you can look at the Cryx box and say "Well I'm getting three bonejacks for free" the Legion box is similar in the "Well I'm getting four Shredders for free" aspect. Unless you are using eThagrosh, you probably aren't going to ever run four Shredders in a single army. Two though, perhaps. One, definitely.

pLylyth is a strong warlock that helps out both her beasts and infantry a fair bit. She can give you a pretty good taste of Legion's fun things like Pathfinder on everyone, Eyeless Sight (pDenny hates you for this), and teach you about the importance of fury management and when you can purposefully let your beasts go wild.

The Carnivean that is included with the box is often not a Legion's #1 choice for a specific task (Scythean is cheaper and just as effective as a beatstick, Angelius cracks armor a bit better and has a lane-opening animus, Typhon is just a bit more expensive and does more), but he is pretty often a solid #2 choice. It is powerful in melee, has a strong breath weapon (if a bit inaccurate), and is hard as a rock while getting even harder with his animus up.

Mordekiem wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:I don't really want to buy two rulebooks though, and deal with weird cross-game rules interactions. How different are the rules?

The rule books are nearly identical. So close that most rules can be found in the other rulebook on the same page! As said the main differences in warlocks w/ fury and beasts vs warcasters with focus and warjacks. And the main rulebooks are the cheapest part of the game.

And truthfully, as you start playing people you will probably want to know how both work anyways for when you go up against the other side. May be slightly more complicated to learn both systems as you learn, but I did it. And since we have a mix of WM/H in our group my friends have been learning both as well.

That said, if you are on a budget the best way to get into the game is to buy one rulebook and two battleboxes for that book. You mentioned alternate routes for starting, though, so I assumed that your budget was a bit larger as that is a more expensive, though perhaps more effective long term, way to start.

If you want the most cost effective way to get started it would be the two player battlebox. You get two 20+ point armies and a rulebook and a few other goodies for the cost of two regular battleboxes. Of course, the only one available right now is the menoth/Khador one. I heard rumors of a horde version, but it probably will not be any time soon.

It's not so much that I'm on a budget so much that I don't really want to be spending more on rulebooks than models to start out with, combined with the fact that I don't want to deal with cross-ruleset interactions that might be game-breaking (Psions in D&D aren't affected by things like anti-magic, and vice-versa, things like that).

Are the Forces books necessary to play by the way? I don't see where to get the stats of my units otherwise. (Aside from buying the models, or is that the point?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirbinator wrote:If you are interested in going the Hordes route, it's up to you on the battle box for Legion. Must like you can look at the Cryx box and say "Well I'm getting three bonejacks for free" the Legion box is similar in the "Well I'm getting four Shredders for free" aspect. Unless you are using eThagrosh, you probably aren't going to ever run four Shredders in a single army. Two though, perhaps. One, definitely.

pLylyth is a strong warlock that helps out both her beasts and infantry a fair bit. She can give you a pretty good taste of Legion's fun things like Pathfinder on everyone, Eyeless Sight (pDenny hates you for this), and teach you about the importance of fury management and when you can purposefully let your beasts go wild.

The Carnivean that is included with the box is often not a Legion's #1 choice for a specific task (Scythean is cheaper and just as effective as a beatstick, Angelius cracks armor a bit better and has a lane-opening animus, Typhon is just a bit more expensive and does more), but he is pretty often a solid #2 choice. It is powerful in melee, has a strong breath weapon (if a bit inaccurate), and is hard as a rock while getting even harder with his animus up.

Sounds pretty good. Is Lylyth the one in the battle box? I feel more inclined to actually use the models in that one (as opposed to the cryx one).

So what is Legion all about, anyway? Their beasts look like they're pretty tough but their infantry looks like they're more of a glass cannon type of thing.

Ostrakon wrote:

It's not so much that I'm on a budget so much that I don't really want to be spending more on rulebooks than models to start out with, combined with the fact that I don't want to deal with cross-ruleset interactions that might be game-breaking (Psions in D&D aren't affected by things like anti-magic, and vice-versa, things like that).

Are the Forces books necessary to play by the way? I don't see where to get the stats of my units otherwise. (Aside from buying the models, or is that the point?)

The cheaper way to get most of the stats that are available to you is to purchase the card decks (2010 edition). It won't have the most recent releases but it will be a good starting point to begin with. Battle-college can also help but will be a bit opaque as they hid stats by saying "DEF is one higher than SOMETHING". If you have a local gaming store then they might allow you to open the packets and look before purchasing.

As for the cross-ruleset interactions, you can get the quick start rules for Hordes and Warmachine at the bottom of each of those pages. Also helpful are these quick reference sheets that somebody has created. Also in the thread is a flow chart helping you to learn how things activate.

Also ask away on here, we'll help as much as we can.

So I get four of those cute little shredder guys in the Legion box. So is the point of those guys to make them frenzied so they just beat up on everyone with boosted attack and damage? Also, 11 points for the Carnivean? Are Legion guys normally so expensive? Are they actually worth that much? (I can't really put the stats in context) That's like 1 point less than a deathjack.

The Hordes rules actually seem pretty interesting compared to the WM rules. I'm gonna have to make a decision.

Ostrakon wrote:It's not so much that I'm on a budget so much that I don't really want to be spending more on rulebooks than models to start out with, combined with the fact that I don't want to deal with cross-ruleset interactions that might be game-breaking (Psions in D&D aren't affected by things like anti-magic, and vice-versa, things like that).

Are the Forces books necessary to play by the way? I don't see where to get the stats of my units otherwise. (Aside from buying the models, or is that the point?)

Nothing really game breaking about the two rulesets. They are pretty well balanced against each other. Instead of thinking of them as two seperate games think of them as an expansion of the other ruleset.

As for the force books, they are nice, but not needed. The models come with a card that lists all their individual rules, stats, etc. Force book is just good if you want to check out your other options and enjoy the fluff. After the rulebook and your initial army or battlebox I would recomend it. But it is not required.

The Carnivean is FA: U

For 11 pts it can do an incredible amount of damage. It's actually pretty ridiculous how much damage that thing can do. It can easily tear through like two Khador jacks in one turn.

It's also expensive because it has Eyeless Sight and Pathfinder. Eyeless Sight alone is worth like 2 pts.



Shredders exist to soak wounds, go rabid, and provide their animus. A warlock can cast the animus of a beast as if it were one of their spells. That's why a warlock spell list is typically shorter, since every beast brings a spell to the list with it.

It's a lot different from warjacks, but, the actual rules themselves mesh fully.

correlation2 wrote:
For 11 pts it can do an incredible amount of damage. It's actually pretty ridiculous how much damage that thing can do. It can easily tear through like two Khador jacks in one turn.

Not to derail the thread, but some of what you've posted thus far is simply misinformation. The Carnivean, without buffs, can't scrap a single Khadoran warjack in one turn without exceptional rolls.

Assuming that it can simply walk up to an ARM20/34 box warjack and hit with every single attack, then 5 P&S18s, and 2 P&S 16s only do 31 boxes. If you spend a fury to charge (thereby gaining a boosted damage roll and Assault spray) you do even less damage, only about 30 boxes.

To scrap two Khadoran jacks with ease, something with 7 attacks like a Carnivean would need to be P&S 26 or so.

I use the term scrap loosely. Once a warjack has lost its critical systems its basically worthless. A Juggernaut that has lost its right arm and cortex against a Carnivean in melee is basically worthless. About the only exception to that would be the direct intervention of mechaniks.

Not to mention, I can't think of any times off the top of my head I've seen a Carnivean running around without any kinds of buffs. I mean we could spend all day talking about the different buff combinations, but the fact of the matter is that a Carnivean has an immense damage output.

It's mitigated by high DEF, which heavy jacks typically lack. If it had to boost to hit reliably then it would do a lot less damage overall. As it stands I think it only has to roll, what, 4s to hit? 5s or 6s against an Iron Clad? Probably something like 7 to hit Cryx jacks. Not 100% sure.

yastobaal wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Are the Forces books necessary to play by the way? I don't see where to get the stats of my units otherwise. (Aside from buying the models, or is that the point?)

The cheaper way to get most of the stats that are available to you is to purchase the card decks (2010 edition). It won't have the most recent releases but it will be a good starting point to begin with. Battle-college can also help but will be a bit opaque as they hid stats by saying "DEF is one higher than SOMETHING". If you have a local gaming store then they might allow you to open the packets and look before purchasing.

I like the 2010 decks because they give you physical cards for most of your army, but the Forces Of book has the things that came out between January 2010 and the time the book was printed (October 20th). It also has the theme list requirements and bonuses, but you can see those on Battle College too. And of course, not vital to gameplay, it has fluff for each unit and a few more stories on top of it. There are some important models that came out in that time frame, like the Ravagore, so having the book can be more helpful when proxying out the gate. The downside is you would have to write down the card info for everything.

Sounds pretty good. Is Lylyth the one in the battle box? I feel more inclined to actually use the models in that one (as opposed to the cryx one).

So what is Legion all about, anyway? Their beasts look like they're pretty tough but their infantry looks like they're more of a glass cannon type of thing.

Yes, pLylyth is the warlock of Legion's battle box (warpack). She is a very solid caster, though a little less well rounded than some due to her disdain for melee combat. Her epic version is even less happy with melee combat, but she can freely walk away from it so she doesn't really care.

Legion is about its beasts backed up by some infantry. While its beasts can appear to be tough to take down (the Carnivean certainly is), it often has even trickier ways to increase beast life longevity. Typhon's animus lets him heal d3 every time he gets damage, basically making him immune to death or weakening by pincushion attacks. The Angelius's animus is a pulse that pushes every model within 3" of it away, letting you safely get out of combat against things that seek to tarpit you. The premier beast-centered caster Absylonia has plenty of buffs that really turn her battlegroup into a wall of nastiness. The list goes on, but Legion is definitely loves its critters. They have pretty solid infantry too, but like you mentioned the infantry is very squishy. You'll still want to bring some, just know that most of your warlocks would prefer that infantry takes care of itself.

Legion is also unique in that its beasts are soulless and they don't attack their controlling warlock when they frenzy. It's situational but kind of cool - a fluffy set of rules.

They still produce corpse tokens though, whenever that is relevant.