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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

There is a move on Ulthuan.net to fan rewrite the High Elf Army book. Mostly in the hope that GW will copy large chunks of it. I wonder what Dakka thinks of my take on it.

Orginal thread here:

8th edition High Elf army book project



My take, based on changed to the Army Book.


Page 43 Special Rules

Valour of Ages - no change.

Speed of Asuryan - High Elf characters gain the universal rule Always Strike First. High Elf units gain Always Strike First only against targets in the front arc and only on the first round of combat.

Once melee is joined and the ordered ranks are broken High Elves fight as well as any other elves, it is when the lines are intact or in the moments before a charge that the warriors of Ulthuan show their unique talents.

Designers note - A much needed balance, yes its a reduction but a needed one. Universal ASF takes away a lot of the tactical play of the game, unless you have a lance or impact attacks there is no need to get the charge in against HE, they will strike first anyway. by limiting the special rule you can buy other benefits elsewhere. Also it makes sense, even High Elves get caught flat footed by flanking attacks, or at least they should do.


Page 46 Arts of Saphery

Channeling. All High Elf magi (added later: and Dark Elf sorcerers) receive a bonus to channeling equal to their magic level. I.e. a level 2 High Elf Mage receives +2 to channeling attempts and thus channeling an extra power or dispel dice on a 4+.

Master of Magic. All High Elf Magi gain the signiture spell of their chosen Lore for free in addition to the spells rolled.
Designers note - This does mean there is no swapping further provision for swapping out of spells with a High Mage, the benefit of swapping is freely available. This is a logical extension that duplicates the current privilege given to High Elves using High Magic and expands it to fill with the signiture spells of all the other lores available.

Loremaster. As per the Universal Rule. This is purchased in the Army list.

Thaumaturge Apprentice. Level One High Elf Mage only. The Thaumaturge Apprentice gains two Signiture spells, one of each taken from any of the Lores available to High Elves. Any additional spell gained chooses a further Signiture spell from another Lore. The Thaumaturge Apprentice may benefit from only one Lore Attribute at a time.
High Elf Magi are taught to master all of the winds of magic, slowly one school at a time. However some Masters prefer to give their students a grounding in all the schools of magic before focusing on one. Thaumaturge Apprentice is a purchased upgrade available only to junior apprentice, other Magi are more advanced and focused in their study.
Designers note - This is balanced because High Elves gain +1 spell anyway due to Masters of Magic/Drain magic. Thaumaturge Apprentice therefore will be a free option for a level one mage. You offset the ability to take the higher powered spells with increased versatility.

Library of Hoeth. High Elves Archmages have a greater access to magical writings than any other race, and they balance the need to guard such knowledge carefully from outsiders while distributing access to privileged members at need. Any High Elf Mage can have any number of Arcane items so long as all but one item is a one use item, normal magic items price limits still apply.
Designers note - This doesn't lift the item duplication limit, so you can only have one Dispel scroll in an army. But now you can have a Dispel scroll and another Arcane item, as you should. One item Archmages don't look right.


Page 43,44 HIGH MAGIC

CORRUSCATION OF FINREIR (Lore Attribute)
High Magic acts in symbiance with and opposition to the laws of nature. Only a High Mage can appreciate the paradox. When High Elf Magi draw in the winds of Magic the laws of natures are in part suspended, flames and rocks leap for joy while rain and dust dances in mad cavortations. The madly dancing rocks might not harm the Mage but are potentially hazardous to a mount or nearby companions, however the Mage is lifted bodily from the earth, only to settle unharmed and orderly once the magic passes.
When a High Magic spell is cast by a mage on foot the Corruscation of Finreir may be invoked. The Mage gains a 2+ ward save against all missile and melee attacks, but not spells. For the duration of the Corruscation the mage is considered a seperate target from his the unit for purposes of targeting with missiles or spells. This last until the following player magic phase, the character moves, takes an unsaved wound from any source or the corruscation saves a number of wounds equal to the mages Wizard level.

ISHA'S GENTLE TOUCH (Lore Attribute)
High Elves consider their Art a blessing from the Mother of the Elven race, it lingers briefly gently on their fingertips and in their hearts to be brought forth again at need. As a gentle magical residue it is completely incompatible with the boisterous magic of Corruscation of Finreir. Not even Teclis can wield both powers at once.
When a High magic spell is cast the residual magic remaining within the Mage may be used to power further spells, if the next spell cast this magic phase by the same Mage is cast with only one power dice the Broken Concentration rule (page 32 WFB) does not apply and the spell is cast if the casting result is met no matter how low the die result.

Designers notes - This places two aspects of High Magic, a gentle or a furious application which are mutually exclusive and both pain a consistent colourful picture of the High Magic and those who wield it. The Corruscation of Finreir is an old spell now often emulated in the current editions models and should be reflected by the rules.
Corruscation is a lore attribute with some plus points and drawbacks, the mage cannot move without forfeiting the attribute, he is also a missile magnet. weapons that inflict multiple wounds still roll multiple wounds if they are saved by Corruscation as the multiple wounds may end the corruscation effect. Though any single shot doing so will not harm the mage. However what can harm the mage is a large volley of arrowfire, some of which is absorbed by the corruscation, but all is targetable at the mage. There will be times when this Lore attribute will do more harm than good.
Fortunately, those Ishas Gentle Touch provides an alternative. Not as powerful and showy but you can benefit from it from horseback etc. This attribute is balanced as while it allows reliable single dice casting it only occurs after a successful cast by the same mage, so it limits the number of spells you will get to use it with. Best used with an Archmage with a large number of low power spells.


Drain Magic - Add to first line: (Signiture Spell)

Shield of Saphery
Add: The Mage can choose to bolster the ward save to 4+. If he does so the casting value is raised to 11+.

Curse of Arrow Attraction
Add to third line: re-rolled failed rolls to hit...., and gains Armour Piercing.
Designers note - Boosts arrow fire, but doesn't further add to bolt thrower fire.

Courage of Aenarion
Add: The Mage can choose to extend the range to 18". If he does so the casting value is raised to 13+.

Fury of Khaine
Add: The Mage can choose to extend the range to 48". If he does so the casting value is raised to 12+.

Flames of the Phoenix.
Add: The Mage can instead choose to target all enemy units within 6". If he does so the casting value is raised to 20+ and the spell does not Remain in Play.

Vauls Unmaking
Add: The Mage can instead choose to target all enemy units within 6". If he does so the casting value is raised to 24+.

Designers note - Spells extended in keeping with how it is done in 8th. Due to the sheer power of the last two spells multiple targeting has to be at a very short range.


Page 49 - Spearmen
Martial Prowess
Replace last lines with: "This means they normally fight in four ranks, or three in the turn they charge."


Page 50 - Lothern Sea Guard
Martial Prowess
Add: Lothern Sea Guard may fight in four ranks with spears, or three in the turn they charge, in addition they may Volley Fire will all their bows if they do not move in the movement phase"

Page 55 - Swordmasters
Add:

Lightning Strike
High Elf Swordmasters gain Always Strike First in all circumstances. On the first round of combat and against a melee target in the front arc their opponents forfeit the Always Strike First special rule if present against themselves and any character in the unit.

Parry
High Elf Swordmasters are the finest practitioners of the martial arts anywhere in the Warhammer world. They may reduce their attacks by one in favour of a 5+ Ward save against melee attacks for the entire unit.

Designers Note - No arrow cutting from 5th edition, White lions are the unit with the missile boost. Parry helps Swordmasters by giving them an option, two attacks or one attack and a ward save. The ward save should not be too good or it becomes a no brainer with deep formation Swordmasters, besides the idea that a Swordmaster can block attacks with a blade twice as well as someone with a sword and shield (Ward 6+) is enough.


Page 57 - Dragon Princes
Dragon Armour
Replace last two lines with: "...addition, the model and its mount gain a 2+ save against breath weapons and Flaming Attacks."
Designers Note - In keeping with the current FAQ.


Page 62 - Dragons
Dragon Fire
Increase the Strength of the fiery breath for the Moon and Star dragons by +1 to S4 and S5 respectively.
Designers Note - The Moon dragon is a standard dragon yet a standard dragon (for example Empire army Imperial dragon) has S4 breath if its breathes fire at all. Upgraded dragons breath S5 fire, though the one in the Warhammer FRB is bigger than a star dragon.


Page 63 - Dragon Mage
Reckless
Replace last line with: "other High Elf Mages..., and are too impatient to channel magic as proficiently.

Warrior Mage
Delete this entry entirely.


Page 64 - Tyrion

Defender of Ulthuan
Add: Tyrion is used to facing even Greater Daemons, no spell or creature can faze him. Tyrion and any unit he joins is unbreakable and Tyrion cannot fail any Leadership or Initiative test he is forced to make. Finally Tyrion knows his soldiers and they know him, his Inspiring Presence is 18" radius at all times.

Malhandir
Add: Tyrion may begin the game mounted on Malhandir or on foot. He may summon his steed or dismount during a High Elf turn at any time he is not in melee combat or surrounded. He may mount up before a charge or dismount to enter a building, Malhandir will remain nearby yet veiled from all enemy eyes. Malhandir while mighty is still a horse and is always considered as if based as a normal cavalry model with regards to targeting.

Designers Notes - Tyrion does not run. For all his cool equipment there is little reason to buy him for an army. The autopass for I and Ld test may change that.
I envision Malhandir as a mystic summonable mount appearing at need, there are plenty of cases for this in fantasy. Shadowfax, the Rannihyn etc yet missing in Warhammer. While a neat touch it also adds versatility to Tyrion, you can start him off on foot in a line, and can mount him later. As you cannot give Tyrion a big monster giving him the flexibility to deploy as infantry or cavalry is a needed boost to give unique but not unbalanced power to this unique warrior.


Page 66 - Teclis

High Loremaster
Replace sixth line with:
Whichever Lore he chooses, he knows all seven spells. However what sets him apart from other Loremasters is that Teclis can also immediately bring to mind and cast any of the Signiture spells of all the other Lores, though he can only currently embrace one Lore Attribute at a time.

Designers Note - Versatility is the sign of mastery. Many wizards get to know all spells in their lore. Teclis needs more than that to show him off as what he is, the finest spellcaster in the Warhammer world, equal to Nagash himself. This does mean he can retain knowledge of fifteen spells at the same time, but then Nagash probably knows fourteen if he knows all the spells from Necromantic and Dark Magic combined.
I would like to make him a level 6 Wizard, but the rules dont really support that.
Note that this is less broken than it looks even Teclis is limited to what the Winds of Magic bring in and the Signiture spells are not to the ones to be feared.



Page 89 HIGH ELF ARMY LIST

We can completely depart from the increased percentages of Special and Rare choices. Instead many special choices will be decanted into Core. High Elves will use normal rules for army selection.


Page 90 LORDS

Tyrion Points/model: 325

Designers Note - I was careful not to make Tyrion more killy than he is but to add advantages to his generalship and a unique rule regarding his mount. Even so you can get a Ld10 general for a lot less, something has to give, and that is the pricetag. Especially with 8th being unit heavy Tyrion will not be a one elf slaughterhouse worth 400pts, and with a fixed magic item allowance Tyrion is vulnerable to character-killers with tailored item combinations.

Teclis Points/model: 450

Designers Note - While Teclis is worth his original points and I have upgraded him you can do a very good job for less, especially when the Loremaster Universal rule is put to expected use.


Page 91 - LORDS

Prince Points/model: 130

Mounts (change)
Griffon: 150pts
Sun Dragon: 200pts
Moon Dragon: 280pts
Star Dragon: 350pts
Tiranoc Chariot: 75pts
Lion Chariot of Chrace: 110pts

Armour(replace)
Light Armour and Lion Cloak: 8pts (gain +2 save vs shooting attacks)
Light Armour and Shadow cloak: 15pts (gain scout)
Heavy Armour: 6pts
Dragon armour: 9pts

Designers Notes - The Prince is cheaper to offset the removal of discount magic items, High Elves now pay full price for Common items, some of the more expensive items still come at an effective discount. This logic is extended to the High Elf Noble also.
Large Mounts are cheaper in general, to keep with nwew policy. if an orc Wyveern is now worth 160pts, a Griffon is worth 150pts. I will be expecting this sort of pricing in the new Empire book. However even the Lion Chariot comes at a discount from the amended price because the replaced crew is a bigger loss than a Tiranoc charioteer because of the loss of a Ws5 S6 attack to make up for the character.
Lion cloaks can be taken, but only with light armour. Seperate Lion cloaks would need to be punitively priced otherwise every elf prince and noble would have one, and it would mess with mounted saves on steeds too much.
light armour and lion cloak are a package deal as there is no reason whatsoever to give a lord of any army light armour if better stuff is available.



Archmage Points/model: 210

Special Rules (add)
Channeler
Master of Magic
Library of Hoeth

Upgrade (add)
Loremaster 50pts

Mounts (change)
Sun Dragon: 200pts
Moon Dragon: 280pts
Tiranoc Chariot: 75pts

Designers Notes - High Elf magi were overpriced, yes they are superior but any gobbo great shaman can start flinging nasty amounts of damage for as little as 140pts and its the magic not the staline that matters most for wizards. Loremaster brings the price right back up, and the Library of Hoeth access will normally mean most High Elf archmagi will end up near 350pts.



Page 92 - HEROES

Noble Points/model: 80

Mounts (change)
Griffon: 150pts
Tiranoc Chariot: 75pts
Lion Chariot of Chrace: 110pts

Armour(replace)
Light Armour and Lion Cloak: 7pts (gain +2 save vs shooting attacks)
Light Armour and Shadow cloak: 12pts (gain scout)
Heavy Armour: 4pts
Dragon armour: 6pts

Designers Notes - Five point discount to balance magic items. The biggest change is the inclusion of a griffon. This is justified for three reasons, first to give the excellent Island of Blood model a more permanent place in our armies, second to delimit between dragons for mostly lords and hero mounts, third because Druchii can have a manticore for a their hero.


Page 93 - HEROES

Mage Points/model: 90

Special Rules (add)
Channeler
Master of Magic

Mount (change)
Tiranoc Chariot: 75pts

Upgrade (choose one only): (change)
To a Level 2 Wizard... 35pts
To a Thaumaturge Apprentice... Free

Designers Notes - Magi need a better relative discount, superiority came at too high a price and dispel scrolls etc are now full price and regular magi only get one arcane item. Warhammer overly favours cheap horde wizards of lesser races with stat based discounts.

Dragon Mage of Caledor Points/Model: 300

Special Rules (replace)
Valour of Ages
Speed of Asuryan
Reckless
Master of Magic

Designers Notes - No real change, more importantly no opportunity to be a Thaumaturge Apprentice. Still gets two spells and a discount on the dragon though. The Dragon mage is considered too impulsive to be a good channeller.


Page 94 - CORE

Archers Points/model: 8

Designers notes - Here we come to the biggest single change, a massive drop in archer prices. Archers compared to human crossbowmen are about the same. In fact a human crossbowman offsets +1 to hit with +1 to wound which also benefitsd with armour saves. All told they are worth about as much. The superior leadership and statline of an elf can only go so far.


Spearmen Points/model: 8

Additional equipment:
Heavy armour +2pts per model

Designers notes - Another discount, the loss of universal ASF hurts spearmen more than archers. Yes martial prowess causes them to fight in +2 ranks still. Heavy armour upgrade offsets what is lost.


Lothern Sea Guard Points/model: 10

Weapons & Armour (add)
Shield

Designers notes - Bigger discount, shields as standard. Lothern Sea Gaurd were overpriced. the Volley Fire rule is now changed to they all get to shoot, otherwise deep ranks will be woefully uncompetitive compared to goblins with bows or Brettonian peasant.


Page 95 - SPECIAL

Sword Masters of Hoeth Points/model: 15
Special Rules (replace)
Valour of Ages
Lightning Strike
Parry

[i]Designers Notes - Speed of Asuryan is now limited for all except characters, Swordmaster get a special version which not only restores Speed of Asuryan in all normal circumstances but at times when other units get it, i.e. charging or receiving a frontal charge then the ASF of a Swordmaster trumps any other. This is not a flat rule, if you hit by get a dark elf assassin in the flank they will strike first.
Note that to adequately protect a Mage you will need to not add him to a corner but shield him within the unit. This can be bad news if he miscasts, but nothing will be able to hit the Mage without facing S5 greatswords first and a 5+ Parry ward save. Thus Swordmasters end up being able to do the job they are described as doing best, guarding the mages of Hoeth, without any specific rules for the purpose. It also explains why they are still 15pts.



Phoenix Guard Points/model: 13

Designers Notes - As a unit with staying power the loss of universal Speed of Asuryan hurts them, though with I6 it doesnt hurt them too badly. It still unlocks the opportunity to make the unit cheaper. Fear no longer requires outnumbering to work, but the second ability of a fear causing unit, the ability to resist fear is only of use if you have big weapons to destroy fear causing creatures. S4 halberds don't cut it though, so Phoenix Guard fear is of most use not being scared of skeletons, which is a waste for a 15pt elite model. 13pts is about right to make the units presence felt in the massed infantry days of 8th edition.


White Lions Points/model: 12

Foresters of Chrace
Any unit of White lions led by a character with a Lion Cloak is a Core choice. If the army general is wearing a Lion Cloak all units of White Lions becomes Core choices.

Designers Notes - This unit more than any other feels the loss of universal ASF and thus benefits from an even bigger discount. White Lions are designed as either shock troops or a tarpit with teeth, ASF while potent blurred the lines of what the unit should do. They are not Swordmasters, so why make them like them.
There are plenty of opportunities to make White Lions core choices, which is justifiable as they are not really elite soldiers but common though experienced hunters with a battlefield reputation.



Page 96 - SPECIAL

Silver Helms
Core choice.

Designers Notes - No other change. As a Core choice they will see more play. The price is fair even with reduced ASF, they do what other heavy cavalry do, lance charge and soak wounds with a very good armour save. hitting first at s3 in the second round of combat wont cut it. The other reason to make Silver Helms core is to permit the return of the cavalry army theme.

Dragon Princes of Caledor
Rare choice.

Designers Notes - No other change. The other change to free up points for Special choices. Dragon Princes ought to be Rare anyway, this helps as there isn't much in Rare to compete with the points allowance but Special is somewhat crowded. So you should be able to afford some eagles bolt throwers and Dragon Princes easily enough out of 25% in most size games.
Price doesnt need to drop, the loss of ASF outside the charge is an irrelevance, first or last a handful of S3 attacks will not achieve much. Dragon Princes need to break their target and charge again.


Ellyrian Reavers Points/model: 16
Additional equipment
Bow... +2pts per model
Swap spear for bow... Free

Designers Notes - Ellyrians were too expensive, in fact most light cavalry are, horse archery is especially expensive. Time to fix this I think, but keeping in mind Dark Riders, Pistoliers and Mounted Yeomen prices so we cannot be to generous.


Page 97 - SPECIAL

Shadow Warriors Points/model: 13
Designers Notes - The most overpriced junk in the army list. Shadow Warriors were way way too expensive for what they did, price needs to be comparable to the Druchii equivalent, with no surcharge for Speed of Asuryan, which will not save them if they ever have to melee and is useless when charging a war machine crew which are the only units they will melee by choice.


Tiranoc Chariot Points/model: 75
Designers Notes - The ten point discount is justified again because chariots should be judged by the impact attacks and reslience first and by the crew soft stats a distant second. Compared to an orc chariot of the same price the tiranoc chariot is inferior, in fact in terms of performance it is little better than a Goblin chariot costing 50pts.


Lion Chariot of Chrace Points/mode: 120
Designers Notes - The same principle applies. The lion chariot is again overpriced, its as resilient as an orc or chaos chariot but cost nearly twice as much as the former. Note that as a character mount it costs 110pts as the loss of a white lion is more serious than the loss of a Tiranoc crewman.


Page 98 - RARE

Repeater Bolt Thrower Points/model: 75

Designers Notes - With partial hits now being guaranteed and bargain basement gobbo spear chukkas costing a third of the price it is time to revise the points cost of the Eagles Claw and the Druchii equivalent. 75pts is about fair, they used to be 50pts at one stage, that was too low and was overcompensated for too much.


Page 99 - VAULS FORGE & MAGIC WEAPONS

General Notes - As the Warhammer FRB Common items got larger, the Army Book selections are getting smaller. High Elves should not be reduced to under a dozen items like the Orcs have but some change will occur. the following items are those which should remain, where points are not mentioned, no change. By and large items have not changed much, as GW had a tendency to overprice many items even allowing for the expected High Elf discount.

MAGIC WEAPONS
Bow of the Seafarer
Star Lance
Reaver Bow
The White Sword
Foe Bane
Change to: "All hits on a Monster, Monsterous Cavalry or Monsterous Infantry will wound on a 2+."

Page 100 - MAGIC ARMOUR
Golden Shield 30pts
Temakadors Gauntlets
Shadow Armour 20pts
Armour of Caledor
Helm of Fortune
Mask of the Merlord

Page 101 - TALISMANS and MAGIC BANNERS
TALISMANS
Vambraces of Defence
Loremasters Cloak
Talisman of Saphery 30pts
Sacred Insense
Guardian Phoenix 30pts
Change to: Gives the wearer and his mount a 5+ Ward save.
Designers Note - High Elves need a Ward save for a monsterous mount option.
Amulet of Fire 15pts

MAGIC BANNERS
Battle Banner 90pts
Banner of the World Dragon 55pts
Banner of Sorcery
Banner of Arcane Protection
Lion Standard
Banner of Elyrion

Page 102 - ARCANE ITEMS
Book of Hoeth 100pts
Change to: "Any spell cast by the Mage with this book will be cast with Irresistable Force on any successful casting roll which includes a double, but only suffers a Miscast if a double one is rolled."

Vortex Shard
Annulian Crystal
Sigil of Asuryan
Starwood Staff 35pts
Staff of Solidity
Jewel of the Dusk
Silver Wand

Spell Scroll
Saphery has a small industry of alchemists and artificers manufacturing spell scrolls for the armies of Ulthuan.
One use only. This item contains a memoire and part of the power for a spell from one of the eight Lores of Magic, High magic being too difficult to bind by this means. Choose which spell you wish up to a casting value of fifteen to have enscribed and pay twice its casting value in points. Each spell scroll is named after the spell it cast eg Scroll of Fireball or Scroll of Pha's Protection, thus more than one spell scroll can be included in an army so long as the spell scrolls are different.
The spell can be cast by the mage as if it were a spell known to him even if it is of a different Lore to one currently studied. The scroll provides one point per power dice used to cast the spell then crumbes into as dust and ashes in the release.

Page 103 - ENCHANTED ITEMS

Null Stone 80pts
Radiant Gem of Hoeth
Ring of Fury
Cloak of Beards
Pendant of Vengeance
Dragonhorn
Ring of Corin
Designers Note - Moved to Enchanted Items so a hero can cast it.

Skeinsliver
Change to: High elf player may reroll when determining which player takes the first turn.

Amulet of Light
Talisman of Loec

I think thats covers it. Comments please.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/18 19:22:26


It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.

Parkour is the French martial art of running away.

A blast from the past (3rd Ed):
Dogmas 7 v13-15
13 And the Lord Commander said unto them. Cast out the Veteran Squad from thy midst for they costeth a hundred points. 14 And renounce the missile launcher for it is not strength nine, 15 but praise the lascannon for verily it is strength nine and can smiteth terminator armour. And the Logistica Ministorum looked upon the lascannon and saw that it was good.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I started reading this and for great justice, I skimmed to Teclis and saw he was actually buffed. You know, because Teclis totally sucks now. Which framed in my mind how serious this balance attempt was.

But anyway, from the very little I read, I think the ASF changes are fantastic and the group should be commended.

The +Channeling bonus (remove any references to DE, that's a whole other balance issue) I think is too good. +1 on attempt per mage is plenty. A lvl 2(4) mage having a 4+(2+) chance to get a new dice each is very powerful. For free. A Channeling Staff is +1 on one mage and costs 15 pts. Think of it as reducing the cost of every mage by 15 and their upgraded spell levels by 15 each. That's a lot. A lvl 2 mage goes from costing 135 to 105.

Thaumaturge Apprentice. The Thaumaturge Apprentice gains two Signiture spells, one of each taken from any of the Lores available to High Elves. The Thaumaturge Apprentice may benefit from only one Lore Attribute at a time. Designers note - This is balanced because High Elves gain +1 spell anyway due to Masters of Magic/Drain magic.

You need to say how they can only benefit from one lore attribute at a time. Most are instant. Does he have to state it at the beginning of the magic phase? You have to understand that makes it easier to dispel because you know which spell has the added benefit. But it's not a balance issue because while HE might get +1 spell, they don't have a lore attribute, so they also get -1 effect that is activated without power dice. I'd take the lore attribute any day.

I don't think 4+ Ward should be castable. That's far too good and makes the Phoenix Guard a little less unique. You're just gonna see mega Swordmaster blocks with 4+ ward. The casting value is already extremely cheap and it's one of the best defensive spells in the entire game.

Kinda stopped reading there. Though I gave a chuckle at some of the unit costs. Making elven archers the same cost as empire archers despite their vast discrepancies (+6 in attributes), then using as an excuse that Empire have +1 to wound. Which only Crossbows have. And they even negate this bonus by modifying an existing spell to give it AP. That's just a bit wacky.

   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

I am responsible for all the above, both good and bad, other have other ideas. Besides a High elf forum is not a place to discuss nerfing High elves.

Teclis is powerful but to nerf him you need to rid him of his built in Book of Hoeth. The rewrite of High Loremaster above omits that paragraph. This was intended but was not clear in the writeup. Teclis still keeps his miscast immunity so he cal buy Irresistable safely by piling on the magic dice. Doing this is fair because Teclis, if he does this, will not be casting much magic. its more balanced than it looks.

Channeling is justifiable as it adds a power dice on a 4+ for a mage, a 2+ for an Archmage. Yes its more than a 6+ for everyone else but channeling is largely useless as it stands anyway. just because the Channlers staff costs 15pts doesnt mean its worth that much. Jewel of the Dusk cost 15pts and that provided a point of power guaranteed. Frankly i would give this power to every wizard, it allows the number of wiozards you have to effect the amount of dice in the pool, and then only by a modest amount and with a hard cap of 12 remaining. Nothing broken here, nothing at all.

Empire archers are themselves overpriced, but are skirmishers which is why. GW overpriced skirmishers horribly in a lot of cases, Shadow Warriors being the worst. I compared High elf archers with crossbowmen, which are at rough parity. The only stats that matter for the archers as BS and Ld, and the Ld only of interest because of psychology tests.
IMHO an empire archer is worth 6pts.

I can defend all the unit price drops easily enough.

Lore Attributes are instantly expire as one is gained. If one is in play for a whole magic phase it can be kept.

A 4+ ward is a lot, but justifiable. I think it can stand but the casting value for both versions of the spell can be revised upwards to account for it if you like. I think the original spell was too cheap come to think of it. I certainly dont want the alternate for an upgrade which is to increase range, or to give a 5+ Ward to every unit in a radius. Both would be to way little or too much. A 4+ ward save is quite acceptible though, in fact its quite restrained especially allowing for what else is out there in 8th edition magic and now universal ASF is gone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/18 21:30:40


It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.

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A blast from the past (3rd Ed):
Dogmas 7 v13-15
13 And the Lord Commander said unto them. Cast out the Veteran Squad from thy midst for they costeth a hundred points. 14 And renounce the missile launcher for it is not strength nine, 15 but praise the lascannon for verily it is strength nine and can smiteth terminator armour. And the Logistica Ministorum looked upon the lascannon and saw that it was good.
 
   
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If empire archers are overpriced, don't use them as a comparison point. Which you did. Regardless of cost, they are what exists and your peers. If you want to rewrite Empire, then do so. But you're basically saying they are overpriced so we're going to make ours cheaper which guarantees you will slaughter any Empire you faced. No, LD/BS isn't the only attribute that matters. All of them matter. Or they wouldn't need Str/I/T/etc. They obviously get engaged in melee at various points.

The Lore attribute weakness isn't a weakness then. It's confusing.

Now you're saying all magic is overpriced??? But you're "balancing" this to the sorta-brand-new book? Either balance it for 8th, which is what you said you were doing, or balance it for the imaginary 9th. But if it's 8th, it's 8th, overpriced or not. Currently Earthblood gives a 5+ ward at 8+ casting. That is negated by flaming, which a lot of units have. You can get it to be 4+ if you cast Throne first, but that can be dispelled. Ogre Trollguts costs 11+ for regen 4+ which is also negated by fire. So this is better and cheaper than the best defensive spells in the entire game. It's better than the entirety of the DoC army, which is essentially their special ability. It's way too good. It's already an amazing spell now. Do what Ogres did and extend the range if you want to have 2 levels of casting. It's extremely clear that Ward > Regeneration.

   
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I would be happy with a cost reduction of core units and silver helms being moved to core.

Oh and fix dragons make them alot cheaper at the moment its a giant points sink that cant fight its way out of a wet paper bag.

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Well a few things stand out to me:

1) the amount of magic items, it seems like 8th ed books are reducing the amount of items in a book, this is why we have this massive list of common items, I think you need to seriously cut down the amount of items in the list, maybe something like 10. With this i mind I think the idea of HE getting cheaper magic items has gone out the window, keep that in mind when pricing items.

2) Book of Hoeth needs to go or seriously be changed, casting everything on IF is just to good in 8th, especially with the some of the boosted spells lores. Why not make the book of Hoeth make the wizard count as one level higher? why not change this to lore master.

Banner of the world dragon and book of Hoeth should not be in the same list, if you won't change them, drop one of them.

3) The channelling is just too good, now combine this with 1 lvl4, 2lvl2, Annulian Crystal, book of Hoeth and banner of sorcery, on average rolls you should get +2 from the wizards, +2 from the banner and +1 from the shard (which is a 2 dice swing. so average roll of 7 turns into 12 dice vs 3 dice.

4) Rather than give SM a 5+ wardsave in combat why not give them protection from shooting, they used to be known as Jedi masters of hoth because they could knock arrows from the sky, what about a -1 to hit at long range.

5) My only real issue with SoA is it lets you ASF with great weapons, apart for thats its fine, what difference does you change make to striking order, bar characters and chaos warriors they strike first against everything anyways.

6) I don't see the point in changing Dragon princes, all you are going to do kill some people fluffy dragon prince lists. You have made silver helms core, you don't need to move dragon princes as well.

I'll post some more thoughts later

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DukeRustfield wrote:If empire archers are overpriced, don't use them as a comparison point. Which you did. Regardless of cost, they are what exists and your peers.


Actually I stuck with the crossbowmen comparison instead. I brought up Empire archers because you did. Point remains the shooting power of high elves was grossly overpriced, empire crossbowmen, bretonnian peasants and druchii repeater crossbowmen are all valid comparison points which will lead you to a points value of about 8. Empire archers are an aberration of themselves, it is not relevant if they end up costing the same and High elf archers are better, Empire archers are mispriced and that is a problem for that army book. the comparison to crossbowmen remains valid regardless.

DukeRustfield wrote:
No, LD/BS isn't the only attribute that matters. All of them matter. Or they wouldn't need Str/I/T/etc. They obviously get engaged in melee at various points.


S and T are standard 3, average all round with other elves, humans even goblins. Initiative is a soft stat, especially as High Elf archers stab first in the one melee round they fight before they get cut to pieces.

DukeRustfield wrote:
The Lore attribute weakness isn't a weakness then. It's confusing.


Never indicated it was a weakness. However lore attributes should not be allowed to stack as many are quite powerful. Frankly I would like lore attributes to go away entirely, but as they exist for the standard lores they need to exist for High magic. We have to address mutliple lore attributes sooner or later as armies taking spells from multiple lores already exist. Lizardman Slann mage Priests being indicative of this, also IIRC some special characters know more than one Lore.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Now you're saying all magic is overpriced??? But you're "balancing" this to the sorta-brand-new book?


What are you talking about. It doesnt sound quoting like what I am talking about.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Currently Earthblood gives a 5+ ward at 8+ casting. That is negated by flaming, which a lot of units have. You can get it to be 4+ if you cast Throne first, but that can be dispelled. Ogre Trollguts costs 11+ for regen 4+ which is also negated by fire. So this is better and cheaper than the best defensive spells in the entire game. It's better than the entirety of the DoC army, which is essentially their special ability. It's way too good. It's already an amazing spell now. Do what Ogres did and extend the range if you want to have 2 levels of casting. It's extremely clear that Ward > Regeneration.


Shield of Saphery is mispriced at 5+ casting value, which is why I more than doubled it for the upgraded spell. As you write earlier i am not here to fix other army books, but to compare against the standard set for 8th edition already. Saying that Earthblood is Jade Magic, wheras High magic is slightly better at what it does. I would be happy to raise Shield of Saphery to 8+ for parity with the upgrade costing say 14+. a 4+ save is not broken though no matter what you wail. Stuff like Okkams mindrazor and the broken ones Briona Timewarp. I am not trying to compete with those.


Jubear wrote:I would be happy with a cost reduction of core units and silver helms being moved to core.


Check.

Jubear wrote:Oh and fix dragons make them alot cheaper at the moment its a giant points sink that cant fight its way out of a wet paper bag.


Check. both already done.
GW seems to agree large monsters are getting a big points drop in 8th. Orc wyverns now cost 160pts in their 8th edition book. I have been points balancing dragons and griffons based on that price.


itsonlyme wrote:Well a few things stand out to me:

1) the amount of magic items, it seems like 8th ed books are reducing the amount of items in a book, this is why we have this massive list of common items, I think you need to seriously cut down the amount of items in the list, maybe something like 10. With this i mind I think the idea of HE getting cheaper magic items has gone out the window, keep that in mind when pricing items.


I agree in part. Trouble is I dont know which to reduce further and await feedback. Also high elves have better stocked arsenals and can give items to unit champions. I would go with about twenty to thirty faction items total in all likelihood more thna anyone else. Orcs are not a good comparison as they are not really item heavy.

itsonlyme wrote:
2) Book of Hoeth needs to go or seriously be changed, casting everything on IF is just to good in 8th, especially with the some of the boosted spells lores. Why not make the book of Hoeth make the wizard count as one level higher? why not change this to lore master.


Hmm. This is a tricky one. I don't feel I can just ban it, and have trouble trying to change it. Best I could do for now was to tidy it up a bit.

itsonlyme wrote:
Banner of the world dragon and book of Hoeth should not be in the same list, if you won't change them, drop one of them.


That makes it easier to drop Book of Hoeth.

itsonlyme wrote:
3) The channelling is just too good, now combine this with 1 lvl4, 2lvl2, Annulian Crystal, book of Hoeth and banner of sorcery, on average rolls you should get +2 from the wizards, +2 from the banner and +1 from the shard (which is a 2 dice swing. so average roll of 7 turns into 12 dice vs 3 dice.


You are blaming that on the channeling when the banner and annulian crystal offer a lot. Should the Banner of Sorcery be upped in points cost to make is a BSB banner? Should annulian crystal be on the to remiove list?

itsonlyme wrote:
4) Rather than give SM a 5+ ward save in combat why not give them protection from shooting, they used to be known as Jedi masters of hoth because they could knock arrows from the sky, what about a -1 to hit at long range.


Because the old arrow cutting rule didnt make sense. They have the ability to block arrows, but not melee. A parry ability makes much more sense. Also giving a missile boost is cross purposes with White lions its thier ability. The melee only ward save also comes at a cost. This cost -1 attack is workable though it sounds one hell of a lot because the extra attack is largley swallowed up because you are matching three attacks vs two per file rather than two to one now. Comparatively the bonus in attacks has lessened due to the supporting attacks rule. so Swordmasters in block need something more than A2. Giving them a special rule to allow A2 as supporting attacks would be too much however. I think the ward save works is balanced is tactical because you have a thinking choice. It also makes them viable defenders of mages as the ward save is a unit bonus, i.e someone parries on behalf of characters in the unit.

itsonlyme wrote:
5) My only real issue with SoA is it lets you ASF with great weapons, apart for thats its fine, what difference does you change make to striking order, bar characters and chaos warriors they strike first against everything anyways.


I propose that ASF workin only against frontal opponents and on the first round of a combat.
This is because flank attackers get the drop on you and in a long drawn out combat the lines are blurred and the fighting increasinly chaotic. Speed of Asuryan from what i can see is all about timing and discipline rather than raw reflexes, for that you need a well coordinated attack, a great weapon is not a hinderance if on the charge, receiving the charge you learn to begin your swing before you would normally need to. its stictly a beginning of combat thing though.
I am toying with having Speed of Asuryan work this way for all High Elves and giving Swordmasters standard ASF (old SoA) as their Lightning Strike rule.
At this point Swordmaster can be bought as an upgrade for characters, providing ASF for any High elf character at additional cost.

itsonlyme wrote:
6) I don't see the point in changing Dragon princes, all you are going to do kill some people fluffy dragon prince lists. You have made silver helms core, you don't need to move dragon princes as well.


Dragon Princes were moved to help decrowd Special. with Special decrowded you can remove the need for High Elves to have their own force org limits. Ever since Dogs of War were removed high Elves have had remarkably little that counts as rare. dragon Princes are in fact a better contender for rare than Bolt Throwers are, I dont see why Bolt Throwers are rare at all frankly, to everyone else thats a special choice. However its Rare and that suits my purposes. The bolt thrower needs a small price drop to account for improved artillery rules in the WFRB. Cannon no longer guess, and stone throwers and equivalent no longer roll for partials. Bolt throwers need to get a little better and the best way is to make them cheaper.
With bolt throwers cheaper all you have left are eagles in a 25% slot.

Yes you can only have two units of Dragon Princes, but again I see no problem with that. In many respects they are the equal of Grail knights and Blood Dragon knights, ultra elite cavalry. Franklly they should have always been rare choices.
anyway let us look at the numbers.
2000pt army means a 500pt Rare limit. Two bolt throwers and two eagles comes to 250pts at new price, 300pts with old. That gives comfortable room for six Dragon Princes and full command at 230pts, with twenty points left over for magic items, fifty if you take only five knights. All this is on the Rare limit and taking the 'old maximum' of two RBT and two Eagles as rare. If you take less bolt throwers/eagles you can afford more Dragon Princes.

itsonlyme wrote:
I'll post some more thoughts later


Look forward to it. Help me sift though the magic items list for a start and get rid of about a third to a half of each section.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.

Parkour is the French martial art of running away.

A blast from the past (3rd Ed):
Dogmas 7 v13-15
13 And the Lord Commander said unto them. Cast out the Veteran Squad from thy midst for they costeth a hundred points. 14 And renounce the missile launcher for it is not strength nine, 15 but praise the lascannon for verily it is strength nine and can smiteth terminator armour. And the Logistica Ministorum looked upon the lascannon and saw that it was good.
 
   
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Orlanth wrote:I agree in part. Trouble is I dont know which to reduce further and await feedback. Also high elves have better stocked arsenals and can give items to unit champions. I would go with about twenty to thirty faction items total in all likelihood more thna anyone else. Orcs are not a good comparison as they are not really item heavy.


What I would do is just pick of things from both sections that scream to you HE, change them if they are abit rubbish, just avoid ward saves, the common items provide 2 4+ and 2 5+ wardaves, you don't need more 'd say about 8-10 items

Hmm. This is a tricky one. I don't feel I can just ban it, and have trouble trying to change it. Best I could do for now was to tidy it up a bit.

That makes it easier to drop Book of Hoeth.


Well that was easy enough

You are blaming that on the channeling when the banner and annulian crystal offer a lot. Should the Banner of Sorcery be upped in points cost to make is a BSB banner? Should annulian crystal be on the to remiove list?


The point I am making is with all those items the channeling rule is just making it worse, i would personally remove any items that constant adds powedice, at most leave the banner of sorcery, the crystal is certainly number one on the list, it wouldn't be so bad if shadow and life wasn't so damn good.

Because the old arrow cutting rule didnt make sense. They have the ability to block arrows, but not melee. A parry ability makes much more sense. Also giving a missile boost is cross purposes with White lions its thier ability. The melee only ward save also comes at a cost. This cost -1 attack is workable though it sounds one hell of a lot because the extra attack is largley swallowed up because you are matching three attacks vs two per file rather than two to one now. Comparatively the bonus in attacks has lessened due to the supporting attacks rule. so Swordmasters in block need something more than A2. Giving them a special rule to allow A2 as supporting attacks would be too much however. I think the ward save works is balanced is tactical because you have a thinking choice. It also makes them viable defenders of mages as the ward save is a unit bonus, i.e someone parries on behalf of characters in the unit.


I think the glass hammer helpd balance out the unit, I can see some sort of shoiting protection but I think in combat its two much, I agree the jedi tricks didn't make as much sense back in the day, it does make abit more sense when they have ASF representing super fast reflexs!, if you give them one attack and 5+ h2h wardsave why would anyone use them over phoenix guard? lower strength by one but a better wardsave against everything.

I propose that ASF workin only against frontal opponents and on the first round of a combat.
This is because flank attackers get the drop on you and in a long drawn out combat the lines are blurred and the fighting increasinly chaotic. Speed of Asuryan from what i can see is all about timing and discipline rather than raw reflexes, for that you need a well coordinated attack, a great weapon is not a hinderance if on the charge, receiving the charge you learn to begin your swing before you would normally need to. its stictly a beginning of combat thing though.
I am toying with having Speed of Asuryan work this way for all High Elves and giving Swordmasters standard ASF (old SoA) as their Lightning Strike rule.
At this point Swordmaster can be bought as an upgrade for characters, providing ASF for any High elf character at additional cost.


Well I did read your rule but I am just saying I don't think you need to change it like that, remove the SOA overriding the BR rules for GW and I think, bar SM I can't say SoA has cost me any games against HE.

Dragon Princes were moved to help decrowd Special. with Special decrowded you can remove the need for High Elves to have their own force org limits. Ever since Dogs of War were removed high Elves have had remarkably little that counts as rare. dragon Princes are in fact a better contender for rare than Bolt Throwers are, I dont see why Bolt Throwers are rare at all frankly, to everyone else thats a special choice. However its Rare and that suits my purposes. The bolt thrower needs a small price drop to account for improved artillery rules in the WFRB. Cannon no longer guess, and stone throwers and equivalent no longer roll for partials. Bolt throwers need to get a little better and the best way is to make them cheaper.
With bolt throwers cheaper all you have left are eagles in a 25% slot.


While it might be crowded half your army can be specials, if you want something else in the rares why not male up a unit like a dragon? every army has gotten some kind big monster for the rare section so far, DE have hydras, I'm sure HE will have a dragon, I think the RBT's in rare is a trade off for having some of the best special units on the game combined with excellent mages, also no other army can have a mage riding a dragon as a hero slot, maybe not supper competitive (that does however need impoving) but it does get the award for rule of cool

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/19 04:23:19


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itsonlyme wrote:

What I would do is just pick of things from both sections that scream to you HE, change them if they are abit rubbish, just avoid ward saves, the common items provide 2 4+ and 2 5+ wardaves, you don't need more 'd say about 8-10 items


I would limit the high Elves to a minimum of twenty items. It might be better to provide a list of needed effects and then allocate item names to them.

1x artifact sword - I am not even sure if we need one, but the focus is to provide higher power weapons on other lists. Just so long as it is not the Sword of Khaine.
1x bolt thrower bow - Bow of the Seafarer
1x heavy bolter bow - Reaver Bow
1x magic lance - Star Lance
1x cheap but powerful sword against limited types of targets - Foe Bane, with modified rules, max 25pts so a champion can have it.
1x cheap unique weapon -

1x artifact armour - Something new, replacing Vambraces of of Defence costing about 60pts
1x ward save armour that effects armour saves - Temakadors Gauntlets
1x rerolled/boosted armour saves with secondary bonus -
1x stealth armour - Armour of Shadows
1x all in one armour - Armour of Caledor

etc etc



itsonlyme wrote:
I think the glass hammer helpd balance out the unit, I can see some sort of shoiting protection but I think in combat its two much, I agree the jedi tricks didn't make as much sense back in the day, it does make abit more sense when they have ASF representing super fast reflexs!, if you give them one attack and 5+ h2h wardsave why would anyone use them over phoenix guard? lower strength by one but a better wardsave against everything.


People will use therm over/alongside Phoenix guard because you have the choice. At any point they can be A2 Swordmasters or S5 Phoenix Guard lite. Were it a permanent tradeoff your worries would be justified, but its a turn by turn thing, two attacks or attack and parry, choose. Sometimes you will want one sometimes the other.

itsonlyme wrote:
Well I did read your rule but I am just saying I don't think you need to change it like that, remove the SOA overriding the BR rules for GW and I think, bar SM I can't say SoA has cost me any games against HE.


That makes less sense. attacking quickly with a great weapon is about skill and discipline, Swordmasters teach you that. At an utter minimum Swordmasters do not suffer struike last, never will because they never have. It was their special ability since Warhammer first came about. However removing ASF from flanked units and in a drawn out melee is logically justifiable and more importantly tactically balanced. AoA was a terrible rule because it made charging High elves largely irrelevant. removing ASF when flank attacked really helps it means that ordinary troops if played well will get to charge properly even against High Elves. Speed of Asuryan was a game rule that trumped tactical play, and those shouldn't happen.


itsonlyme wrote:
While it might be crowded half your army can be specials,


Which is a problem because more than half the army book is special and they are mostly very expensive choices.

itsonlyme wrote:
if you want something else in the rares why not male up a unit like a dragon? every army has gotten some kind big monster for the rare section so far, DE have hydras, I'm sure HE will have a dragon,


Very possible GW will go down that route and provide a new big creature kit. we might see a massive Sea Serpent. The Lothern Army special list had one and would be the most logical choice for a new kit. A naked Dragon is possible and I would welcome it actually. Still if ~dragons are there there will be found Dragon princes also. Special is still crowded and Dragon Princes were never really a special choice, they are written up as ultra elite, consider themsevles ultra elite and their only real equivalents, Grail Knights and Blood Knight aren't Special either.

itsonlyme wrote:
I think the RBT's in rare is a trade off for having some of the best special units on the game combined with excellent mages, also no other army can have a mage riding a dragon as a hero slot, maybe not supper competitive (that does however need impoving) but it does get the award for rule of cool


Rare RBT's is not a tradeoff but a brainfart. They shouldnt be rare and are not rare in the background material. High elf ships are covered in them, and the Lothern sea Guard and Spearelves take them off and pack them like IKEA for the march. That is why they dont need wheels, they are disassemblable and reassembleable from elf size portions. Sure the humans counts build that, but elves can and do in massive numbers. Sounds more like a core choice actually.
Besides with Rare being so empty and now everything back in percentages you could have rather a lot of them.


It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.

Parkour is the French martial art of running away.

A blast from the past (3rd Ed):
Dogmas 7 v13-15
13 And the Lord Commander said unto them. Cast out the Veteran Squad from thy midst for they costeth a hundred points. 14 And renounce the missile launcher for it is not strength nine, 15 but praise the lascannon for verily it is strength nine and can smiteth terminator armour. And the Logistica Ministorum looked upon the lascannon and saw that it was good.
 
   
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Orlanth wrote:I would limit the high Elves to a minimum of twenty items. It might be better to provide a list of needed effects and then allocate item names to them.

1x artifact sword - I am not even sure if we need one, but the focus is to provide higher power weapons on other lists. Just so long as it is not the Sword of Khaine.
1x bolt thrower bow - Bow of the Seafarer
1x heavy bolter bow - Reaver Bow
1x magic lance - Star Lance
1x cheap but powerful sword against limited types of targets - Foe Bane, with modified rules, max 25pts so a champion can have it.
1x cheap unique weapon -

1x artifact armour - Something new, replacing Vambraces of of Defence costing about 60pts
1x ward save armour that effects armour saves - Temakadors Gauntlets
1x rerolled/boosted armour saves with secondary bonus -
1x stealth armour - Armour of Shadows
1x all in one armour - Armour of Caledor


Do they really need two magical bows? don't they have a special character with a magical bow? not including special characters you need maybe 1 bow and magical swords/axes, Star lance is certainly one I would keep and possibly white sword, less weapons are very different to those included in the BRB which is the point in having such a massive list, I don't think Foe bane is actually needed, the BRB has plenty of cheap swords you can give a unit champion, looking at your list of armour you want a additional 2 4+ wardsave items? I have to say that just seems to muchm the BRB already has 2 and 60pts isn't enough anyways, its 50pts for armour of destiny, rerolled failed armour saves is worth far more than 10pts. I also don't see the point as you can create pretty much the same effect with the common magic items, just means HE can have two lords with a 4+ wardsave and rerollable armour saves. Temakadors Gauntless are basically the game as armour of fortune, again its a duplicate item which is slightly cheaper and better. Armour of caledor can again be created by the common magic items, 2+ armoursave armour + dragonbane gem or a character with a dragon helm can be nearly as good, thats why its so easy to cut them down to 10 or so items!




People will use therm over/alongside Phoenix guard because you have the choice. At any point they can be A2 Swordmasters or S5 Phoenix Guard lite. Were it a permanent tradeoff your worries would be justified, but its a turn by turn thing, two attacks or attack and parry, choose. Sometimes you will want one sometimes the other.


With A2 to actually have a reason to use them over phoneix guard, at attack1 5+ ward you don't have any reason to, phoenix guard will just be better, give them something unique if you want to change them, personally I think the only change that needs to bemade to them should come from SoA,.

That makes less sense. attacking quickly with a great weapon is about skill and discipline, Swordmasters teach you that. At an utter minimum Swordmasters do not suffer struike last, never will because they never have. It was their special ability since Warhammer first came about. However removing ASF from flanked units and in a drawn out melee is logically justifiable and more importantly tactically balanced. AoA was a terrible rule because it made charging High elves largely irrelevant. removing ASF when flank attacked really helps it means that ordinary troops if played well will get to charge properly even against High Elves. Speed of Asuryan was a game rule that trumped tactical play, and those shouldn't happen.


I am pretty sure when every other troop in the game strikes last with GW and SM striking in I order with the same weapon would very represent the skill and discipline they have in comparison!

Which is a problem because more than half the army book is special and they are mostly very expensive choices.


If you break it down, Your have to take 25% core, you will have atleast 25% characters, that leaves you half your army, the rare stuff is just meant to be used in more limited numbers, I don't think dragon princes need to be in the rare slot, no sense in putting stuff in rare for the sake of it looks better

Very possible GW will go down that route and provide a new big creature kit. we might see a massive Sea Serpent. The Lothern Army special list had one and would be the most logical choice for a new kit. A naked Dragon is possible and I would welcome it actually. Still if ~dragons are there there will be found Dragon princes also. Special is still crowded and Dragon Princes were never really a special choice, they are written up as ultra elite, consider themsevles ultra elite and their only real equivalents, Grail Knights and Blood Knight aren't Special either


Chaos knights and questing knights are not rare either, Personally I don't think it helps the army so its a needless change, anyway why not go and make a dragon as a rare unit, if you want to remake the list then go the whole way, worst that happens is you feel its overpowered and remove it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/20 01:19:18


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itsonlyme wrote:

Do they really need two magical bows?


Why not, they are elves, and they both work very differently and are frequently taken items. Besides there are no enchanted missile weapons in the common item list.





itsonlyme wrote:
With A2 to actually have a reason to use them over phoneix guard, at attack1 5+ ward you don't have any reason to, phoenix guard will just be better, give them something unique if you want to change them, personally I think the only change that needs to bemade to them should come from SoA,.


Sigh. I question whether you have read what you are critiquing. Swordmasters would do either A2 or A1 Ward 5+ as chosen. Its an additonal option, combat power or survivability. Phoenix Guard are dedicated survivability, Swordmasters do not, if Swordmasters matched Phoenix Guard in defence the Phoenix Guard would become instantly obsolete. However the Parry option allows them a measure of defence if that is more important at the time than combat power.

That makes less sense. attacking quickly with a great weapon is about skill and discipline, Swordmasters teach you that. At an utter minimum Swordmasters do not suffer struike last, never will because they never have. It was their special ability since Warhammer first came about. However removing ASF from flanked units and in a drawn out melee is logically justifiable and more importantly tactically balanced. AoA was a terrible rule because it made charging High elves largely irrelevant. removing ASF when flank attacked really helps it means that ordinary troops if played well will get to charge properly even against High Elves. Speed of Asuryan was a game rule that trumped tactical play, and those shouldn't happen.





itsonlyme wrote:
If you break it down, Your have to take 25% core, you will have at least 25% characters, that leaves you half your army, the rare stuff is just meant to be used in more limited numbers, I don't think dragon princes need to be in the rare slot, no sense in putting stuff in rare for the sake of it looks better


The breakdown is a general failure of the ruleset, and is beyond this project to fix. If you argue that rare need not exist due to the practical character requirements and core minimums then it is a problem that effects more than just High Elves. Nevertheless Special is too full and needs emptying a bit.
Besides Phoenix Guard not only looks better as Rare, it makes more logical sense too.


itsonlyme wrote:
Chaos knights and questing knights are not rare either, Personally I don't think it helps the army so its a needless change, anyway why not go and make a dragon as a rare unit, if you want to remake the list then go the whole way, worst that happens is you feel its overpowered and remove it


Questing knights are not equivalent to Dragon Princes. Dragon Princes are the most prestigious unit in the army, their compariosn is with Grail Knights.
Any knight with a horse who converts to the Chaos gods can become a Chaos Knight.

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Orlanth wrote:Why not, they are elves, and they both work very differently and are frequently taken items. Besides there are no enchanted missile weapons in the common item list.


So you don't have to many magic items! of course you are going to find it hard to trim them down if you feel everything has a place, I am sure many Orc players felt the same, it seems to be the trend, if it really is a 8th ed army book project then you need to cut things out which the list does not need, frankly HE don't need magical bows.


Sigh. I question whether you have read what you are critiquing. Swordmasters would do either A2 or A1 Ward 5+ as chosen. Its an additonal option, combat power or survivability. Phoenix Guard are dedicated survivability, Swordmasters do not, if Swordmasters matched Phoenix Guard in defence the Phoenix Guard would become instantly obsolete. However the Parry option allows them a measure of defence if that is more important at the time than combat power.


Ok, I thought you meant you would change them to attack one with 5+ ward rather than being able to do one or the other, I still think its abit meh.


Questing knights are not equivalent to Dragon Princes. Dragon Princes are the most prestigious unit in the army, their compariosn is with Grail Knights.
Any knight with a horse who converts to the Chaos gods can become a Chaos Knight.


I'm just looking at it from a gaming point of view, I don't see the sense in the change but if thats what you wanna do or the more power to you.

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