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Kilkrazy wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Why do all the models need to be 1mm on?

Because models must be on the table?

Where does it say that?

English?

The rules for Reserves say the unit must move on. The reserve rules also say "Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield..."

Since you have to put them flush to the edge of the table and move them (since each models move is measured, which means it must have moved) it can move 1 Planck length and be 1 Planck length on the board, which is on the board.

That does not follow, actually.

Kilkrazy wrote:That does not follow, actually.

Sure it does.

You cannot measure a move if it never happened. A Move of 0" is not the same as no move. Since Models cannot be off the board, they must have moved some non-0" distance.

Page 94. "When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table. . .each model's move is measured from"

Normal movement allows for a non-move. Reserves do not.

The rule says the unit must move on to the table, not the individual models.

We have already established that the unit is represented by the first 1mm of a model.

The rules go on to say how individual models are to be moved, but it does not compel them to move, only the unit must move on to the table.

As I read it, "each model's move" is not allowing some models NOT to move.

It pretty much falls into the same catagory as 4e synapse rules did, regarding choosing not to move.

Editing to add:
The rest of the rule reinforces it.
"Each model's move is measured. . .and moved as normal"

Normal movement does not allow you to end out of coherency.

Or are you asking if it is OK to measure (for example) to other tables?

kirsanth wrote:As I read it, "each model's move" is not allowing some models NOT to move.

This.

Not moving means you cannot measure the models move. Since you MUST measure the models move, it MUST have moved the unit, it MUST have moved a non 0 distance, which means it is on the board, no matter how little of it actually is.

MUST is the new META!

Reserves says they start moving from the very edge of the board, which means before they're finished moving,
There is no possible way of completing the reserves process without models only being partially on the board at some point of their move (since they have a long base and must start the move with only the front of their base on the very edge of the board.)

That would contradict the notion that no model can ever be less than 100% on the field or it is removed from play. (Which there is no strict rule to support.)
Otherwise, the destroyers logical construct for the situation means that EVERY unit moving on from reserves is completely destroyed, because the first half-inch of them moving onto the board they're partially off the board which is destruction.


Now, moving is not simply choosing a start and end location (I'll start off the board and end 3" on the board)
movers move through all of the positions on the way from where they start moving to where they end moving.

Say there's a 3" long forest. If you only measured the start and end, you'd be able to run all the way through it without suffering difficult terrain. No, the model moves entirely through the spaces from where it starts to where it stops so it is slowed.

A model moving onto the board moves through spaces where it isn't 100% on the board, it's impossible not to do so. If it's suddenly immobilized, there's no rule saying it is destroyed because otherwise all reserves would be destroyed because at multiple parts of their move onto the board, they aren't "entirely on the playing surface" as rules lawyers would argue.

Now, a model which hasn't moved any amount at all onto the board is clearly not on the board at all (basic logic), which means that it's destroyed according to rules it must have moved on.

It's really impressive that the threads gone for complete circles for fourteen or more pages without any flaming or anything, but it's sad that the only actual precedent is being ignored.

The rules for arriving from reserve state that any special rule which would prevent a unit from arriving from reserve is ignored. Vehicle movement, and becoming immobilized due to difficult terrain, certainly seems to be just as much a special rule as anything else (the USR's, the various special rules such as deep strike, etc.). So you have that precedent versus "It has to come on to the board, but it can't because it's immobilized. It obviously must be destroyed as an affront to the rules."

P.S. I've played 40K on the floor with my nephew and I have to admit that the edges of the "board" kept shifting during the game. I'll go turn myself in to the 40K Police for not playing on a board now while the argument over the definition of 'on' continues...

Gwar! wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Why do all the models need to be 1mm on?

Because models must be on the table?

And there you have it. models must be on the table.

On means on.

On does not mean off.

ergo if you are partially on, you are also partially off.

and since models must be on the table, and on, in this case, is inclusive, you can not be partially off the table, because you must be on the table.

Except Partially On is on.

A model that is partially on the table is on the table.

The rules do not say you must be fully on the table, it just says on.

So, by the "it only has to be 1mm onto the table" camp, you have no problem with me moving my tanks 1mm onto a table from reserve, ending my move there, and denying you my side or rear armor for the rest of the game, right? After all, per pg 94 (reserve rules) there is nothing explicitly keeping me from doing so - right? It's "on the table", isn't it?

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, and the responses were "if you can show me a rule that says you're allowed to do so". Well, can you show me a rule that says I cannot do so? You cannot have it both ways. Either it's a permissive ruleset, or a restrictive one, but it can't be both.

Ouze wrote:So, by the "it only has to be 1mm onto the table" camp, you have no problem with me moving my tanks 1mm onto a table from reserve, ending my move there, and denying you my side or rear armor for the rest of the game, right?

Firstly, I am more than able to hit your side armour. I just have to be in your side arc.


Secondly, this is no different to parking your Manticores (or whatever) flush against the table edge so I can't hit the rear armour. Completely fair and legal.

Gwar! wrote:Except Partially On is on.

A model that is partially on the table is on the table.

The rules do not say you must be fully on the table, it just says on.

Except Partially on is partially off as well, and since you have to be on the table, that restricts you from being off the table.

On, in this case, is Inclusive and not exclusive.

The base has to be on the table. If any part of the base is not on the table then that is against the rules.

Thank you and goodnight.

I can't agree Gwar, id say shooting at parts of the vehicle that are clearly OFF the table (as in your diagram) should not be allowed. Same goes for sponsons/turrets on the vehicle that are "out of bounds".

DeathReaper wrote:
Except Partially on is partially off as well, and since you have to be on the table, that restricts you from being off the table.

On, in this case, is Inclusive and not exclusive.

The base has to be on the table. If any part of the base is not on the table then that is against the rules.

None of that is true, as has been repeatedly conclusively proven in this thread.
Partially on is on.
It's not fully on, but the rules don't ask for fully on, they just ask for on.
It's partially off, but the rules don't ask for it not to be. They just ask for it to be on, which it is.

ChrisCP wrote:

It really can't get much simpler than this.
Sticking your head in the sand and yelling you're right without any new arguments or evidence isn't really convincing.

DeathReaper wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Except Partially On is on.

A model that is partially on the table is on the table.

The rules do not say you must be fully on the table, it just says on.

Except Partially on is partially off as well, and since you have to be on the table, that restricts you from being off the table.

On, in this case, is Inclusive and not exclusive.

The base has to be on the table. If any part of the base is not on the table then that is against the rules.

Thank you and goodnight.

Nope, you keep saying this but all this disagrees with you:

The English language
Mathematics
Logic

Keep going though, it is damn funny.

If you are even 1mm ON the table, you are NOT OFF the table. That is impossible. Pretending otherwise is, well, laughable.

I think the vehicle would count as on the table if the exact location where it came on has a tiny bit of room between it and the table edge.
Otherwise, BOOM! This is just IMHO, though.

kirsanth wrote:As I read it, "each model's move" is not allowing some models NOT to move.

It pretty much falls into the same catagory as 4e synapse rules did, regarding choosing not to move.

Editing to add:
The rest of the rule reinforces it.
"Each model's move is measured. . .and moved as normal"

Normal movement does not allow you to end out of coherency.

Or are you asking if it is OK to measure (for example) to other tables?

Are you saying that models are required and forced to move?

Scratch that it is unit teach me not to check before post. Well since each models move is measured as if they were just off the board you could choose to not move the models (apart from one that needs to move a little on so as to meet the unit moving on requirement)

OK, so the situation is that as long as one model's base is 1mm on the edge of the table, the unit is legally in play.

However most of the models in the unit can be off the board, and their positions will be inferred from the general rules of coherency.

In order to 'play' with the models, the owning player uses the 'wobbly model' rule to hold them in the place they would be if the table were wider. Perhaps by placing the models on a tray or hardback book.

Kilkrazy wrote:OK, so the situation is that as long as one model's base is 1mm on the edge of the table, the unit is legally in play.

However most of the models in the unit can be off the board, and their positions will be inferred from the general rules of coherency.

In order to 'play' with the models, the owning player uses the 'wobbly model' rule to hold them in the place they would be if the table were wider. Perhaps by placing the models on a tray or hardback book.

Yes. Will any one play that way? ... doubtful after all this is a game we're meant to enjoy and balancing my models on books just off the table seems to go against that (Still you're playing on the floor its going to be easier).

Once you've read rule book updates, like the 8th fantasy, you do wonder why those in charge of this update haven't been fired ... preferably out of a cannon ^_^ ... I mean they even managed updates to all codices army books. Yet the best 40k got was tiny paragraph reading (effectively) if it don't work tough.

Kilkrazy wrote:OK, so the situation is that as long as one model's base is 1mm on the edge of the table, the unit is legally in play.

Except it isn't, because as we already have shown, models are forced to move a non-0 distance onto the board from reserves.

Gwar! wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:OK, so the situation is that as long as one model's base is 1mm on the edge of the table, the unit is legally in play.

Except it isn't, because as we already have shown, models are forced to move a non-0 distance onto the board from reserves.

Would you mind repeating that, as I can't find the reference.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420/315833.page#1935211

OK.

The reserves rule requires units not models to move on to the table.

The reserve movement rules explain how to move individual models within the unit if you want to move them.

Players are not require to move all the models within a unit if they decide to move some of them. The unit still counts as moving.

Thus if 1mm of a model's base moves on to the table, the whole unit is 'on' the table.

Kilkrazy wrote:OK.

The reserves rule requires units not models to move on to the table.

The reserve movement rules explain how to move individual models within the unit if you want to move them.

Players are not require to move all the models within a unit if they decide to move some of them. The unit still counts as moving.

Thus if 1mm of a model's base moves on to the table, the whole unit is 'on' the table.

Sorry, but they are for reserves.

"Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield..."

You cannot measure a move that doesn't happen. Therefore, since you are measuring a models move, IT MUST HAVE MOVED.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Except Partially On is on.

A model that is partially on the table is on the table.

The rules do not say you must be fully on the table, it just says on.

Except Partially on is partially off as well, and since you have to be on the table, that restricts you from being off the table.

On, in this case, is Inclusive and not exclusive.

The base has to be on the table. If any part of the base is not on the table then that is against the rules.

Thank you and goodnight.

Nope, you keep saying this but all this disagrees with you:

The English language
Mathematics
Logic

Keep going though, it is damn funny.

If you are even 1mm ON the table, you are NOT OFF the table. That is impossible. Pretending otherwise is, well, laughable.

So you can be off the table and in play then?

I get that your base is partially on the table, but the requirement is for the base to be on the table. This would mean that you can not be off the table.

All this agree's with me, and not the other way around, as you pointed out.
lets look at:
The English language: on means on, on does not mean off. in this case on is inclusive of the whole base.

Mathematics: on a 2" base if 1" is on, by default 1" has to be off. simple 1st grade math. (maybe second grade)

Logic: If something is half on, and half off, that means it exists in both states, or partially if you will.

saying a model is legally in play if it is 1" on (and 1" off) the table is false. since you have to move onto the table, if you are partially off the table that does not fulfill the requirement since you are partially off the table. You are partially on as well, but the rules say you have to be on, so if any part of the base is off, it can not be on the table.

ergo a move that can not be made, since your base is Partially off the table.

DeathReaper wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Except Partially On is on.

A model that is partially on the table is on the table.

The rules do not say you must be fully on the table, it just says on.

Except Partially on is partially off as well, and since you have to be on the table, that restricts you from being off the table.

On, in this case, is Inclusive and not exclusive.

The base has to be on the table. If any part of the base is not on the table then that is against the rules.

Thank you and goodnight.

-and-

DeathReaper wrote:
So you can be off the table and in play then?

I get that your base is partially on the table, but the requirement is for the base to be on the table. This would mean that you can not be off the table.

All this agree's with me, and not the other way around, as you pointed out.
lets look at:
The English language: on means on, on does not mean off. in this case on is inclusive of the whole base.

Mathematics: on a 2" base if 1" is on, by default 1" has to be off. simple 1st grade math. (maybe second grade)

Logic: If something is half on, and half off, that means it exists in both states, or partially if you will.

saying a model is legally in play if it is 1" on (and 1" off) the table is false. since you have to move onto the table, if you are partially off the table that does not fulfill the requirement since you are partially off the table. You are partially on as well, but the rules say you have to be on, so if any part of the base is off, it can not be on the table.

ergo a move that can not be made, since your base is Partially off the table.

I'm sure this has been brought up in the past 14 pages, but I figured I'd give it a go. What about the necron monolith? The thing is a little more than 6" wide in all directions, and it can only move up to 6". If no model can be partially off of the table, then a monolith can't come in from reserve from the board edge. Are you saying that it is impossible to deploy the monolith from the board edge in any situation, including dawn of war?

I think he just wants the last word so he can pretend his words make sense.

Partially on is not off.