Switch Theme:

Sisters of Battle  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




Olympia, WA

Spidey0804 wrote:Why is it in the WD Battle Report the Dominion squad has 4 special weapons but only 5 members of the squad? Pg 96 and Pg 100... ??? Is there a misprint in the book or should it be the way it is?


I think they are probably referring to the fact that the flamers fire twice each.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime






Camas, WA

Jancoran wrote:
Spidey0804 wrote:Why is it in the WD Battle Report the Dominion squad has 4 special weapons but only 5 members of the squad? Pg 96 and Pg 100... ??? Is there a misprint in the book or should it be the way it is?


I think they are probably referring to the fact that the flamers fire twice each.

No, IIRC (my WDs are at home) the list actually has 4 specials in the 5 man squad. Which is how it used to work in C:WH and probably in early versions of the new book until they updated it to the X specials per X guys thing that 5th edition does.

Want to know how to print your ePubs for use at games without bringing a digital device? http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Printing_ePubs

Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
Want to know your rumor monger's history? Check out the Ongoing Rumor Accuracy Tracking thread

"For this thread to have some utility and remain useful, please refrain from spamming it with 'jokes'." - Alpharius
"Irrational negativity is the engine that drives the forums" - BrassScorpion
"It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid." - Redbeard 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




Olympia, WA

Hollowman wrote:
But I could see how it could be more effective for the *list* to have them in the backfield.

...importantly, I cannot trust a conclave to do anything either - I have been using Uriah to protect my backfield, but without fleet or any anti-tank ability the enemy has had an easier time than I would like


Well Hollowman, it's ALL about tactics in my book. Lists are meant to form nicely around the hand that wields them, like a glove.

As for Anti-tank in a conclave, i include 4 Arco-Flaggelents, so I am usually fine against tanks rear armor. Do you not use them? 20 STR 5 attacks is good against any target but it especially helps the Conclave against armor. i added them and never looked back. that unit is a danger to anything it touches. 4 Assassins, 4 Arco's and 2 Crusaders for the win!

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





Jancoran wrote:As for Anti-tank in a conclave, i include 4 Arco-Flaggelents, so I am usually fine against tanks rear armor. Do you not use them? 20 STR 5 attacks is good against any target but it especially helps the Conclave against armor. i added them and never looked back. that unit is a danger to anything it touches. 4 Assassins, 4 Arco's and 2 Crusaders for the win!
I'm not really feeling this. Unless it didn't move you're only typically going to get a couple of glances, maybe a pen if you're lucky, out of 20 attacks (10 hits = 3ish 5+, and 4 hits = 1ish 5+). On top of that, you're still boned against walkers. I'm of the opinion that Conclaves have no business trying to take out vehicles. If you're desperate and you don't have anything else you can use them for, sure, but I'd never expect my conclave to do anything against armor.
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




Olympia, WA

actually its roughly 2 glances and 2 pens. which is good. Not even Devastators do it better actually.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 19:54:51


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Bellevue, WA

Jancoran wrote:
Well Hollowman, it's ALL about tactics in my book. Lists are meant to form nicely around the hand that wields them, like a glove.

As for Anti-tank in a conclave, i include 4 Arco-Flaggelents, so I am usually fine against tanks rear armor. Do you not use them? 20 STR 5 attacks is good against any target but it especially helps the Conclave against armor. i added them and never looked back. that unit is a danger to anything it touches. 4 Assassins, 4 Arco's and 2 Crusaders for the win!


Agreed on list building, but I'm still working on my list. When I took out one unit of PE (out of three) and added an exorcist it more or less worked - av13 in cover draws a lot of fire that used to go into PE, and makes everything more survivable. But it also made a hole in my front lines, and more stuff is getting through, which hurts my BSS. I use arco's at 2500, and I'm considering replacing my current cultist bomb with them - they just don't mesh well with Uriah. I considered Kyrinov, but making BSS fearless seems to hurt them more than help, since they already come close to getting wiped out first turn of assault to most things. My two Repentia are really the workhorse of my list, so I am hesitant to leave one in the backfield - but I have considered replacing my conclave with a third repentia unit, and using Celestine as my HQ. Or I could leave one of my current PE units in the backfield, but then even more will get through my lines.

What I really need is time to play test the different options if the arco's work, they would be the option that takes the least away from my list elsewhere. Otherwise Celestine and more Repentia might be the next trick.

If I could just get repentia a ride without having to steal it, I'd be fine right now!



   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




Olympia, WA

well the Arcos are one reason why i dont use Uriah. He's cool. let no one say I ever said otherwise. But like you say, with Crusaders and Arcos in the unit, he's not AS helpful as he would be. thats why i use Kyrinov. Fearless bubbles are cool, like bow ties. if you skip the Canoness you can have both, but as you may find (not to start another big hooplah) the Sororitas Command Squad is quite cool and hard to say no to after you use that unit a few times.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 19:56:41


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





Jancoran wrote:actually its roughly 2 glances and 2 pens.
Not sure where you're getting this.

Jancoran wrote:Not even Devastators do it better actually.
That's very subjective statement. What are the Devs shooting at? AV10? What kind of weapons do they have? Missiles? Lascannon? Plasma?

Against AV10, 4 ML Devs will typically get about 2 pens (1.88...8 is expected)

Against an immobile vehicle your Conclave will obviously be better. 20 hits = 6 or 7 glances and pens. (Note this is still only one extra pen.)
Against a combat speed vehicle it's slightly worse. 10 hits = 3 glances and pens.
Against a cruising speed vehicle it's much worse. 3 hits = 1 glance or pen.

Personally, I think this is all a bit moot. If it's a vehicle and your women can't shoot it dead, something is very wrong.
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




Olympia, WA

My point was...

That a unit of Arco's glances on 5's, Pens on 6's and because of their sheer number of opps (when they are asked to do it at ALL) they do more damage than a Devastator squad does. Even better when the vehicle doesn't move or got immobilized!

They get 1.67 Glances and 1.67 Pens on a vehicle moving at combat speed. So basically, two each since theres no such thing as .67 pips on a die.

And yes, against a vehicle moving fast, they do less. That sort of goes without saying. But what IS worth pointing out is that a conclave without them....doesn't do jack to a vehicle! Am I wrong?

And since the original comment was ABOUT not being able to stop vehicles with a conclave... The arcos were the answer and a relevant answer at that.

OK? Don't get hung up on the unimportant commentary. Point is, adding Arco's has made a huge difference for me, in multiple ways. If it isn't necessary to you, don't do it. I won't be hurt. Lol.



Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Bellevue, WA

Amerikon wrote:
Personally, I think this is all a bit moot. If it's a vehicle and your women can't shoot it dead, something is very wrong.


Well yes something is wrong, but you should expect that. Immo are fragile and have one weapon, Dominions are too reliant on the Immo, exorcists can just whiff and again have just one big weapon - things go wrong. If it comes down to BSS, their one MM shot is just a chance and a prayer - even against AV11 without cover they have a what, 33% chance to pen? Unless the vehicle is within 12", in which case it is already too late to save your BSS.

Sometimes a bad first round takes out too much of my AT, or there are just too many vehicles and too few good rolls, or a scout comes in on the wrong side, or a landraider just takes everything I throw at it. Since I tend to drive aggressively into the enemies deployment zone, sometimes something I expected to kill get's past, and then it's 3 BSS's whiffing a shot a round until suddenly they are eating chainswords.
   
Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior





Hampton VA

The only action my BSS squads see is firing from hatches for the most part. Move 6 inches fire 8 shots.

4000pts






 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




Woodbridge, VA

Spidey0804 wrote:The only action my BSS squads see is firing from hatches for the most part. Move 6 inches fire 8 shots.


What are they riding in? Rhinos only allow two models to shoot, Immolators zero.

Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior





Hampton VA

2 Stormbolters in the squad and 2 stormbolters on the vehicle.. Rhinos...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/04 13:45:26


4000pts






 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




Woodbridge, VA

Spidey0804 wrote:2 Stormbolters in the squad and 2 stormbolters on the vehicle.. Rhinos...


Gotcha.

Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





Jancoran wrote:They get 1.67 Glances and 1.67 Pens on a vehicle moving at combat speed. So basically, two each since theres no such thing as .67 pips on a die.
I don't think this is fair, because you're rounding up an entire 2/3 of a damage result which overstates their case. That's why I left it at ~3 glances and pens. In the average case against a vehicle you'll get either 2 glances and 1 pen (worse than devs) or 2 pens and 1 glance (almost the same as devs).

Jancoran wrote:And yes, against a vehicle moving fast, they do less. That sort of goes without saying.
Ok, but it's relevant to a discussion of the anti-tank abilities of arcos. You can't just sweep it under the rug. This is especially true when we're talking about a unit to defend your DZ (which I think we were). The only time a tank is going to be moving under 6" is if it needs to shoot something. Usually those aren't the same units that get into your DZ. So the types of targets you can expect a Conclave to face if they're being tasked with defending the backfield are going to be transports and fast moving vehicles (usually skimmers). That means that most of the time you'll be hitting on 6s.

Jancoran wrote:But what IS worth pointing out is that a conclave without them....doesn't do jack to a vehicle! Am I wrong?
And since the original comment was ABOUT not being able to stop vehicles with a conclave... The arcos were the answer and a relevant answer at that.
Of course, you're not wrong, and I'll agree that arcos are the best option a Conclave has for anti-tank, but that wasn't my point. My point is that their best option is still a poor option which means, it's not necessarily a good idea to compromise your Conclave for a slight bump in anti-tank. The Conclave is necessarily an anti-infantry unit. If there's a transport in your DZ, you want to shoot it, not charge it with your Conclave. Their job is to kill what's inside the tank.

Jancoran wrote:OK? Don't get hung up on the unimportant commentary. Point is, adding Arco's has made a huge difference for me, in multiple ways. If it isn't necessary to you, don't do it. I won't be hurt. Lol.
I didn't post this to try and change your list. I was just providing an opposing viewpoint, which is really the point of this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollowman wrote:
Amerikon wrote:
Personally, I think this is all a bit moot. If it's a vehicle and your women can't shoot it dead, something is very wrong.
Well yes something is wrong, but you should expect that. Immo are fragile and have one weapon, Dominions are too reliant on the Immo, exorcists can just whiff and again have just one big weapon - things go wrong. If it comes down to BSS, their one MM shot is just a chance and a prayer - even against AV11 without cover they have a what, 33% chance to pen? Unless the vehicle is within 12", in which case it is already too late to save your BSS.
If your Immos are popped, your Dominions are dead, your Exorcists have whiffed, and your BSS meltas are ineffective, you're flat out boned. Nothing will save you if your entire army has been rendered ineffective.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/04 18:07:05


 
   
Made in us
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime






Camas, WA

Amerikon wrote:
Hollowman wrote:
Amerikon wrote:
Personally, I think this is all a bit moot. If it's a vehicle and your women can't shoot it dead, something is very wrong.
Well yes something is wrong, but you should expect that. Immo are fragile and have one weapon, Dominions are too reliant on the Immo, exorcists can just whiff and again have just one big weapon - things go wrong. If it comes down to BSS, their one MM shot is just a chance and a prayer - even against AV11 without cover they have a what, 33% chance to pen? Unless the vehicle is within 12", in which case it is already too late to save your BSS.
If your Immos are popped, your Dominions are dead, your Exorcists have whiffed, and your BSS meltas are ineffective, you're flat out boned. Nothing will save you if your entire army has been rendered ineffective.


I found this hilarious but true. If everything else in your army is ineffective, one unit isn't going to save it.

Want to know how to print your ePubs for use at games without bringing a digital device? http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Printing_ePubs

Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
Want to know your rumor monger's history? Check out the Ongoing Rumor Accuracy Tracking thread

"For this thread to have some utility and remain useful, please refrain from spamming it with 'jokes'." - Alpharius
"Irrational negativity is the engine that drives the forums" - BrassScorpion
"It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid." - Redbeard 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




Olympia, WA

Amerikon, 1.67 = rounded to 2. thats not unfair. It's also rounding 1/3 not 2/3. They are separate result types with separate frequency. So you round them separately.

Point is, if you refuse to put them in your conclave, your conclaves capabilities are diminished. And that does not seem like a good thing to me. Also, anti-tank is also not the ONLY reason to take them, as aforementioned. they are valuable shields against shooting and reduce the chance in melee of blowing a unit up so badly that it ends in the open.

As for the DZ, the enemy may or may not need to move 12". We can't sit here and argue that because we dont know if that takes them too far past past objectives and whatnot. What I am saying is true: you will average 2 pens and 2 glances more often than you will not, if the target went cruising speed AND...you...will not...be able to affect them at ALL if you lack the Arco's.

Incidentally, even if it moves at 12" speed, I'm still causing .55 Glances and .55 pens.

If the rest of the force failed, the arco's are having to do this. In that case, you have a choice here Amerikon: be unable to do anything OR be able to do SOMEthing about it. Which one you choose could cost you the game, I'd say.

...and i already knew that you did not plan to change my list by what you said. I was telling you that you need not change yours Lol.

Don't treat Conclaves as "anti-terminator" exchange unit. They are good for at least 2 KP and possibly 3 every game and hordes will positively hate your guts. 20 STR 5 atatcks against Orks or tyranids, eldar or IG on its OWN would be a noughty thing to enjoy, but against Bike armies, Nurgle forces, and other tougher units, it really shines too. There are so many places where high STR attacks are worth it.


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime






Camas, WA

Jancoran wrote:Point is, if you refuse to put them in your conclave, your conclaves capabilities are diminished.

Not diminished, changed. Adding them makes you less likely to be able to take down good armor save close combat opponents.

If the rest of the force failed, the arco's are having to do this. In that case, you have a choice here Amerikon: be unable to do anything OR be able to do SOMEthing about it. Which one you choose could cost you the game, I'd say.

If the rest of your force can't do something about one vehicle with rear armor 10, you probably have more problems than the makeup of your conclave.

Don't treat Conclaves as "anti-terminator" exchange unit. They are good for at least 2 KP and possibly 3 every game and hordes will positively hate your guts. 20 STR 5 atatcks against Orks or tyranids, eldar or IG on its OWN would be a noughty thing to enjoy, but against Bike armies, Nurgle forces, and other tougher units, it really shines too. There are so many places where high STR attacks are worth it.


edit: Math was off, but DCA are better against all T5 3+, Orks and most other targets due to WS5 and PW. See below for the right math.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/04 19:56:44


Want to know how to print your ePubs for use at games without bringing a digital device? http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Printing_ePubs

Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
Want to know your rumor monger's history? Check out the Ongoing Rumor Accuracy Tracking thread

"For this thread to have some utility and remain useful, please refrain from spamming it with 'jokes'." - Alpharius
"Irrational negativity is the engine that drives the forums" - BrassScorpion
"It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid." - Redbeard 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





Jancoran wrote:Amerikon, 1.67 = rounded to 2. thats not unfair. It's also rounding 1/3 not 2/3. They are separate result types with separate frequency. So you round them separately.
It's 2/3 because you're doing it twice. You're essentially rounding 3 up to 4 (or at least 3 1/3 to 4). If you can't see that my description is closer to reality, I don't know what else to say.

Jancoran wrote:Point is, if you refuse to put them in your conclave, your conclaves capabilities are diminished. And that does not seem like a good thing to me. Also, anti-tank is also not the ONLY reason to take them, as aforementioned. they are valuable shields against shooting and reduce the chance in melee of blowing a unit up so badly that it ends in the open.
Crusaders are better at soaking fire in every circumstance and also keep your melee results low (if that's what you want). S5 is the main benefit Arcos and when you factor in the fact that DCAs have power weapons, you're likely to end up with more unsaved wound from assassins. So really the only thing Arcos do better is anti-horde and anti-tank. Anti-horde isn't something that Conclaves struggle at to begin with and I'll maintain that they're not good enough at anti-tank to bother with it.

Jancoran wrote:As for the DZ, the enemy may or may not need to move 12". We can't sit here and argue that because we dont know if that takes them too far past past objectives and whatnot.
You don't have to move 12", you only have to move 6.00000001", which is not difficult to do. If moving 6+" is too far to move for your cargo, then there's no reason you can't drop them off and then move. Any commander that doesn't keep his transports moving when CC units are around is just giving away free KPs.

Jancoran wrote:Don't treat Conclaves as "anti-terminator" exchange unit. They are good for at least 2 KP and possibly 3 every game and hordes will positively hate your guts. 20 STR 5 atatcks against Orks or tyranids, eldar or IG on its OWN would be a noughty thing to enjoy, but against Bike armies, Nurgle forces, and other tougher units, it really shines too. There are so many places where high STR attacks are worth it.
Never said they were an "exchange unit", just that they were an anti-infantry unit. A DCA Conclave will shred Orks, Tyranids, Eldar, IG and be more effective than Arcos vs Bikes, Nurgle, MC (assuming a 4+ or better save). Not to mention that Assassins strike first against almost everything while Arcos are only striking before Orks and Necrons.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Syracuse, NY

The problem with calculating expected values is is that you really are not causing 0.55 glances/pens per assault - that average is VERY deceptive.

This is just considering a Rhino Chassis.

Each attack has about a 5.5% chance to cause a damage results. (1/6 hit, 1/3 glance/pen). How many attacks do I need to guarantee a 50% chance to get at least one result?

To find that I solve the problem (1 - 0.055)^n = (1- 0.50) which comes to:

n = ln(0.50)/ln(1-0.055)
n = 12.12 or 13 for an integer solution

Okay not too bad, but we all know 50% success is pretty bad. How about to get to 66% confidence since we all know 3+ results are good, same formula but with (1 - 0.66)?
n = 19.22 or 20 attacks.

Still not great and all we achieved is a 66% confidence to achieve a single damage result. From this I do not think I can expect to get 1 glance and 1 pen. (note: a 90% chance requires 40 attacks).

Since we compared missile launchers to these, how many missiles does it take to guarantee a similar result?

The chance to get a damage result with a Missile is 44% (2/3 hit, 2/3 pen). Using the same formula as above, the number of shots required to achieve a results x% of the time are...

50% - 1.179 so 2
75% - 1.86 so 2
90% - 3.9 so 4

This reinforces what we already know: Missile launchers rock at putting damage on vehicles with high reliability.

Melee with S5 attacks on cruising speed vehicles are unreliable unless you can put out a lot of attacks. If you can put out 40 attacks at S5 you have a 90% chance to generate at least one result.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/04 19:37:51


Daemons Blog - The Mandulian Chapel 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





pretre wrote:So against Orks, Arcos are better. (Forgive any napkin math mistakes.)
The only thing I'd say here is that you're running 5 DCAs vs 4 Arcos. Even if you run 4 v 4 and use 16 Attacks for the Assassins, they still come out better against all T5 with an armor save and all T6 with a save of 4+ or better. It's something like 3.5w vs T5 and 2w vs T6.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Syracuse, NY

Pretre maybe I am wrong here (would not be the first time) but against Orks...

DCA - Hit on a 3+, wound on a 4+ - 1 wound per 3 attacks
Arco - Hit on a 4+, wound on a 3+ (1/6 saved) - 1 wound per 3.6 attacks

I do not recall the difference in attacks between them in number of attacks though I think you compared an even number of 20 and 20. When I just checked the numbers it looks liek arcos should be 5.55 wounds (20 * 0.5 *0.667 * 5/6)

This was w/o the Pref Enemy from a Confessor.

Daemons Blog - The Mandulian Chapel 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Howling Banshee




Airdrie, Scotland.

Sorry to jump in to maths class but?

If I could just get repentia a ride without having to steal it, I'd be fine right now!


IA 2nd edition, Arvus lighters?

3 for 1 FA slot, AV10, fast skimmer, T/L autocannon, 100 pts.

Does anyone think this is maybe worth a punt?

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Bellevue, WA

Amerikon wrote: If your Immos are popped, your Dominions are dead, your Exorcists have whiffed, and your BSS meltas are ineffective, you're flat out boned. Nothing will save you if your entire army has been rendered ineffective.


Are you playing games where your Immo are not popped and your BSS'S are effective? Immo/dominion units are alpha strikers, they jump forward kill something, maybe two something's, and then proceed to get blown up. BSS... Well, I tried relying on my BSS to do something, and it turned out to be a bad idea. The exorcist is the only thing I'd expect to be of any use by the time an enemy is moving into my backfield, and its nice but not important to my game.

My army consists mainly of Repentia and PE. Normally, nothing makes it past their dominance of the midfield, but one disadvantage of rage is that sometimes your screen bunches or moves unreliably, and a vehicle manages to get through. At that point it is the job of my MM BSS's and conclave to kill the threat. In theory, the 3 MM should, between them, pop the transport so my conclave can assault (2 MM if my meched up BSS is out contesting an objective). In practice, the backfield units are not doing their job. Vehicles get too close, and one of my troops gets swept off an objective, THEN the conclave kills the assaulters. Not ideal. The exorcist is the wildcard - it is fairly reliable if it is working, but it's lost it's weapon as often as not by this point.
   
Made in us
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime






Camas, WA

I so forgot about the extra attack on Arcos. I told you to forgive the napkin math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
calypso2ts wrote:Pretre maybe I am wrong here (would not be the first time) but against Orks...

DCA - Hit on a 3+, wound on a 4+ - 1 wound per 3 attacks
Arco - Hit on a 4+, wound on a 3+ (1/6 saved) - 1 wound per 3.6 attacks

No, you're right.
So that means DCA are better against all of the listed opponents than arcos.

Just for giggles, with rerolls on the charge:

DCA - 8/9 hit. 1/2 kill. 8/18 dead per attack. So 1 dead per 2.25 attacks
Arco - 3/4 hit. 2/3 wound. 5/6 kill. 30/72 kills. So 1 dead per 2.4 attacks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/04 19:55:38


Want to know how to print your ePubs for use at games without bringing a digital device? http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Printing_ePubs

Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
Want to know your rumor monger's history? Check out the Ongoing Rumor Accuracy Tracking thread

"For this thread to have some utility and remain useful, please refrain from spamming it with 'jokes'." - Alpharius
"Irrational negativity is the engine that drives the forums" - BrassScorpion
"It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid." - Redbeard 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress





kryczek wrote:Sorry to jump in to maths class but?

Maths. You British folk crack me up!

kryczek wrote:IA 2nd edition, Arvus lighters?

3 for 1 FA slot, AV10, fast skimmer, T/L autocannon, 100 pts.

Does anyone think this is maybe worth a punt?
Is it 100pts per or 100 for all 3?

My biggest gripe against it would be that it takes a highly coveted FA slot. But, I think if you wanted to really go outside the box and spam CC units you could make a pretty slick list with it. (Again, assuming it's not 100pts for 1).

I might rather like it for Dominion squads. Maybe take 2 full strength Dom squads and use the 3rd Arvus for your Conclave. I think it could have a lot of uses. AV10 is a little scary though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollowman wrote:
Amerikon wrote: If your Immos are popped, your Dominions are dead, your Exorcists have whiffed, and your BSS meltas are ineffective, you're flat out boned. Nothing will save you if your entire army has been rendered ineffective.

Are you playing games where your Immo are not popped and your BSS'S are effective? Immo/dominion units are alpha strikers, they jump forward kill something, maybe two something's, and then proceed to get blown up. BSS... Well, I tried relying on my BSS to do something, and it turned out to be a bad idea. The exorcist is the only thing I'd expect to be of any use by the time an enemy is moving into my backfield, and its nice but not important to my game.
I was slightly joking when I said that, but you basically listed all the elements of a Sisters army and said that none of it was working. The only other unit I'd have on the board would be Seraphim. I know you run PEs and Repentia but when I read it, it was more like "Well if absolutely nothing in your army can kill anything...".

Hollowman wrote:My army consists mainly of Repentia and PE. Normally, nothing makes it past their dominance of the midfield, but one disadvantage of rage is that sometimes your screen bunches or moves unreliably, and a vehicle manages to get through. At that point it is the job of my MM BSS's and conclave to kill the threat. In theory, the 3 MM should, between them, pop the transport so my conclave can assault (2 MM if my meched up BSS is out contesting an objective). In practice, the backfield units are not doing their job. Vehicles get too close, and one of my troops gets swept off an objective, THEN the conclave kills the assaulters. Not ideal. The exorcist is the wildcard - it is fairly reliable if it is working, but it's lost it's weapon as often as not by this point.
I'd just say, that's a problem that Sisters have. If all of your shooting fails you, your units are going to rolled by CC units. Even if your Conclave charged and popped the tank, the unit inside still gets to do as it pleases on the next turn so you haven't really fixed the problem.

So if you can't shoot anything down and then a CC unit rolls one of your troops and then your Conclave rolls that unit. You should be stoked that you only lost one unit and your conclave was there to stop your entire backfield from being shredded.

A side note: I'm less than convinced on the utility of the MM in a BSS squad. I do run them sometimes, but I often find myself cursing the MM as often as I'm using it for 24" shots. Anyway... I like to tool my BSS units so that they can make 2 melta shots at least once per game. So I'd go either Melta/Flamer/Combi-Melta or Melta/Melta/Combi-Flamer. If you do that you're usually going to be able to count on them in a clutch situation, especially if you've got some faith points lying around and get pull off their "re-roll 1s" Act. It's not always going to work, but it gives you a fighting chance.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/04 20:09:41


 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Howling Banshee




Airdrie, Scotland.

Unfortunately it is 100pts each.

I wasnt convinced myself it was my mate who suggested them as i had a few flyer/skimmer type models i could have converted. It was losing the FA slot that got me.

I was actually considering running 3 big CC units in them though, 2x enclaves, 1x repentia.

Cheers.

 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




Olympia, WA

Lol. this was about vehicle killing and the Conclave inability to do it.

I already know that DCA kill better. Duh. Thats one of their downsides, like I keep saying. And str 5 is key against so many targets.

No problem. Just saying, if your concern is vehicles and the fact that Conclave can do nothing about it, well... theres a solution. I didn't even calculate in the re-rolls they might get for a priest either. So...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amerikon wrote:
A side note: I'm less than convinced on the utility of the MM in a BSS squad. I do run them sometimes, but I often find myself cursing the MM as often as I'm using it for 24" shots. .


I think you should just shoot the sisters for a round or two, then get back in the Rhino. You'll probably do more overall than the singular Multimelta will in the grand scheme. naturally every opponent is different but i notice how often people START in a rhino to avoid taking ANY casualties but really, as long as there's one left at the end and it's on an objective somewhere, meh. Better production than sitting in and taking a single potshot here and there are 24" range, which aint much when you're trying to stay way back for a while. Plus as an added target it takes pressure off the units that are really performing well. One or two less units firing on, say, conclave or on Dominion can only be a good thing.

in fact you might even reserve the rhinos and make them NOT targets and then just jump in them when "later" comes and they show up. Some risk involved there obviously but again reduces the opportunities for cheap KP's, Sisters of Battle end up protected for a longer period in the game and you can still do the objectives thing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/04 21:40:25


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Bellevue, WA

kryczek wrote:Unfortunately it is 100pts each.

I wasnt convinced myself it was my mate who suggested them as i had a few flyer/skimmer type models i could have converted. It was losing the FA slot that got me.

I was actually considering running 3 big CC units in them though, 2x enclaves, 1x repentia.

Cheers.


Seems like they would work fine, it's just always a gamble to find folks who like Forge World rules. Even if they are fine with them at first, they seem to suddenly find they are no longer to their taste if you win An autocannon bearing transport skimmer seems a bit out of place among the SoB, but it could certainly have it's uses.
   
Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior





Hampton VA

The only thing I will ever buy from forge word are Repressors and that's if they make it into a real dex. I'm not wasting the money on models that I can put on my shelf and never use.

4000pts






 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Tactics
Go to: