Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My original statement was that all codexes are dynamic, it is only player bias that is static. This was followed with a response filled with biased, static thinking, which proved my point.

So, please remind me, when did the AM codex lose all of it Chimera, Taurox, Valkyries, Sentinels, Rough Riders, and common sense?

SJ

Probably about the time that every Guard player that wasn't hit in the head, repeatedly, with a heavy rubber hose, for hours on end, realized that moving towards ANYTHING that can assault is a bad idea.

They didn't lose those things. But 5 tactical marines, in the side arc of a Chimera, will often destroy a Chimera by themselves in one turn. They would also kill any GEQ unit inside that Chimera, maybe over the course of 2 more turns.

Presuming you're within assault range, in the side arc, pretty easy to do if your Chimera is plowing forwards...

4x Bolt Pistol, 1x Thrown Krak Grenade, Average of 0.7777 HP [Typically, one HP inflicted]

5x Krak Grenade attacks in CC, Average of 1.6666 HP [Typically, two HP inflicted]

So that's why Guardsmen don't move forward towards their enemies. Literally, 70 points of Marines with no upgrades can take out 170 points of Veterans in a Chimera. Agreed, that those Vets would probably wreck the 5 Tactical Marines that wrecked their Chimera. At that point, ANYTHING ELSE that the Marine player has will kill the Veterans. If 2 of those tactical Marines make combat with the Veterans, they'll win combat.

Also, moving forwards diminishes your ability to kill things by shooting them. Closer proximity = fewer turns to shoot. It's not player "option" it's game mechanics dictating that the Guard can't move if they want to output damage. They can't move forward if they want to maximise the number of turns they can shoot things. They can't move forward if they want to maximise the survivability of their units.

It's accurate assessment of game mechanics.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
My original statement was that all codexes are dynamic, it is only player bias that is static. This was followed with a response filled with biased, static thinking, which proved my point.

So, please remind me, when did the AM codex lose all of it Chimera,

The Chimera isn't bad, but considering how easy it is to pop boxes nowadays, it's a bit overpriced for what you get.
Moving it forward, however, puts it from slightly above average to terrible. It has bad defense in assault, like most Imperial tanks, and it's firepower isn't enough to wipe out a marine squad before it gets assaulted.
It doesn't allow IG to be dynamic.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Taurox,

Has the defensive stats of a rhino while being more points and vastly weaker troops.
You can't take advantage of its superior firepower while moving forward, and it too will explode if any type of assault takes place.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Valkyries,

Guard don't have the toughness or numbers to take advantage of deepstriking tactics.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Sentinels, Rough Riders,

Come on now, sentinels have 10 armor and 2 HP. They are raiders that can't jink, they will not live past turn 2 against any opponent. They might score you objectives on turn 1, but they'll quickly die.
Rough riders also explode if anything looks at them funny. They won't be moving around after turn 2-3.
Neither of these units will be surviving long enough to claim objectives or moving at all really.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

and common sense?

SJ

In order to capture objectives, you really need to be able to do the following well;
Move quickly. The Imperial Guard have some units that are capable of this, which you did list, although t hey certainly are not the fastest in the game by any stretch.

Have good defensive stats. The units that move quickly lack defensive stats, especially when they move forward and expose their side and rear armor. The troops rely on cover to survive as well. When you play them defensively you can leave them in cover, but if you want to move them forward, you can't always get a cover save.

Do not lose firepower from movement. IG are already not the strongest shooting army in the game (times have changed indeed) and they really can't afford to lose any firepower by moving them forward quickly.

Compare what you listed to WS, Scatbikes, Drop Pods, Teleporting Cents, Wraiths. Those are units that have speed, toughness, and amazing firepower. IG don't have units that move forward effectively, and their best units perform better if they are static. That's not the fault of the player, its simply the strength of the army at present.

I am eager to see what will happen to Guards in their next codex. They indeed need more mobility and offensive options to make them more in line with the faster pace of the 7th edition. The option for having fast Taurox (outside of Taurox prime), improved Scions (maybe with stealth), cheaper Taurox prime, better heavy artillery, the return of lumbering behemoth which made the Leman Russ slow but still a good mobile platform with heavy firepower. A bone to Rough Riders and Bullgryn and maybe a new speedy flyer and they would be in goog position to join the average army. These are simple and very possible changes. We will have to keep our finger crossed.

epronovost wrote:
I am eager to see what will happen to Guards in their next codex. They indeed need more mobility and offensive options to make them more in line with the faster pace of the 7th edition. The option for having fast Taurox (outside of Taurox prime), improved Scions (maybe with stealth), cheaper Taurox prime, better heavy artillery, the return of lumbering behemoth which made the Leman Russ slow but still a good mobile platform with heavy firepower. A bone to Rough Riders and Bullgryn and maybe a new speedy flyer and they would be in goog position to join the average army. These are simple and very possible changes. We will have to keep our finger crossed.

New Rumor is that we're not getting a new codex anytime soon. Just the campaign book.

Lasguns kill Power Armor and Terminators, Multilaser kill Rhinos, and all those Lascannons kill the Land Raiders no one takes anymore. Mechanized IG is still really good in game with terrain and Maelstrom style objectives. A dynamic mind rather than a static mind. Those Marine you seem to fear struggle to kill AV12, by the way. Not every Marine totes a combi-Grav.

And why do you remotely care about Assaults? Each enemy unit stuck in combat with a platoon of Guard is a useless unit, effectively out of the game until the last Guardsman dies. And once that last guy dies, you can then dump dice into wiping them out with massed fire. Because massed, budget shooting is what the Guard does.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
My original statement was that all codexes are dynamic, it is only player bias that is static. This was followed with a response filled with biased, static thinking, which proved my point.

So, please remind me, when did the AM codex lose all of it Chimera, Taurox, Valkyries, Sentinels, Rough Riders, and common sense?

SJ

If someone lists rough riders as a viable unit then that throws up a giant question mark.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Lasguns kill Power Armor and Terminators, Multilaser kill Rhinos, and all those Lascannons kill the Land Raiders no one takes anymore. Mechanized IG is still really good in game with terrain and Maelstrom style objectives. A dynamic mind rather than a static mind. Those Marine you seem to fear struggle to kill AV12, by the way. Not every Marine totes a combi-Grav.

And why do you remotely care about Assaults? Each enemy unit stuck in combat with a platoon of Guard is a useless unit, effectively out of the game until the last Guardsman dies. And once that last guy dies, you can then dump dice into wiping them out with massed fire. Because massed, budget shooting is what the Guard does.

SJ

Please tell me. How are these magical Lascannons popping AV14? 4's to hit (most of the time) 5+ to even get a glancing hit, let alone a penetrating hit. Single Shot AT weapons are terrible, and given Guard BS it's even worse. It's been my experience that the only real thing we have that Marines have to fear is a Punisher w/Pask (which is also really easy to kill). And why do we care about assault? Because we suck at assault, all it takes is a few casualties and that blob is running (unless you decide to invest in priests, in which case the cost of the blob will start to rapidly rise). With all the str6+ firepower that exists today my Chimeras usually don't last past turn 2. Is it because I'm a "static player"? Is it because I'm a bad player? Maybe. Or just maybe, it's because vehicles aren't that good anymore. The only really good thing Guard has anymore is Wyverns, and cheap Vets loaded to the gills with Plasma.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:


Lasguns kill Power Armor and Terminators,

True, to a degree.
It takes 18 shots (assuming BS 3) to kill power armor, it takes 36 shots to kill terminator armor on average (1/18 chance, 1/36 chance I believe)
It's really the special weapons that do the heavy lifting for the guard as well. Their orders certainly help, but not as much as you'd think.

You could have 10 guys fire lasguns and it will only drop ~1 marine in rapid fire range.
Plasma shots do 5/12 wounds (no cover) 10/36 (with cover), so plasma guns are doing the heavy lifting (same for terminators if you use the latter number and they lack storm shields). But you put the special weapons on the vet squads usually.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Multilaser kill Rhinos, and all those Lascannons kill the Land Raiders no one takes anymore.

A multilaser won't often kill the rhino before it does it's job. Often the rhino isn't even needed as something that holds troops...you take 3 pods, maybe some empty rhinos to pop smoke and block LoS and that's it.
Lascannons are pretty overpriced, but they certainly will get the job done. Again, you'll need 4-6 at least to kill most tanks, never mind something like a WS or Riptide, where it gets even worse.

But this is besides the point. The only thing that was mentioned is that none of the tanks you mentioned are tough once the side and rear armor is exposed, and that they lose firepower by moving too quickly forward. A multi-laser or Lascannon has nothing to do with it.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Mechanized IG is still really good in game with terrain and Maelstrom style objectives. A dynamic mind rather than a static mind. Those Marine you seem to fear struggle to kill AV12, by the way. Not every Marine totes a combi-Grav.

If it was AV 12 all around, sure. It's not though, once in assault it's carried out against the rear armor, and Marines can pop it in one round then.
Marines also usually come with melta and plasma. Plasma does struggle against AV 12 (I want to say the marines, if firing all of their weapons, will probably only do 1-2 HP) but that's why people keep the chimeras back. If you move them forward, and the marines assault, they will most likely kill the transport.

And nobody fears basic marines. I could mention Necron warriors, various units from eldar, Grey Hunters (who would love to be charged when the guardsmen pop out), tau suits or other units...most armies don't really worry about AV 12. Most armies excel at killing AV 12.
I picked marines because they are a pretty bad troop choice.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

And why do you remotely care about Assaults?

Because you are moving forward? Normally assault isn't a big deal unless you are facing a very fast unit like wraiths or TWC, but if you are going to move forward...

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Each enemy unit stuck in combat with a platoon of Guard is a useless unit, effectively out of the game until the last Guardsman dies. And once that last guy dies, you can then dump dice into wiping them out with massed fire. Because massed, budget shooting is what the Guard does.

SJ

They don't assault the guard unless they can wipe them in 2 phases or less. They assault the transport and the guard pours out, then the guard are eliminated by another unit shooting the poor guardsmen in the open.
If you want a unit that does well in CC and lasts forever, take a conscript blob with some allies in front, priest, and commissar. That unit works fine. A regular guard blob isn't nearly as big a deal in CC.

If the guardsmen want to charge my marines, that's fine. I can always charge something else in there and wipe them. It's just a few guardsmen. If you spend points upgrading them to a real threat in melee that'll stay, your firepower is reduced and I can use longer range options to pop the chimeras and rob you of your mobility.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
My original statement was that all codexes are dynamic, it is only player bias that is static. This was followed with a response filled with biased, static thinking, which proved my point.

Simply stating that their response was biased and static, without addressing any arguments, doesn't actually say anything...

So, please remind me, when did the AM codex lose all of it Chimera, Taurox, Valkyries, Sentinels, Rough Riders, and common sense?

SJ

They have all of those. The problem is they don't function terribly well.

Yes, IG have RR's. They die like normal guardsmen, but cost twice as much, being only very marginally cheaper than many other, far more effective units, and only have any sort of killing power for a single round of close combat *if* they get the charge and not the opponent. There are strong reasons why you don't see these guys on tables, ever. One *does* see Death Riders in DKoK lists, but they've got 2 wounds, 6+ FNP, a 4+ armor save, reroll dangerous terrain tests, WS4, and ignore 25% morale tests, though, even then, they're still not exactly spectacular.

Yes, the IG codex has Sentinels. Aside from Outflanking, they're no faster than anything else, and have the lifespan of gnats. AV10, HP2, and Open Topped is the vehicular equivalent of being a grot. Yes, they can give you some Scout/Outflanking gimmicks, but they they also die almost immediately .

Yes, IG have Valkyries. The problem is that Valkyries on their own cost, at best, as much as the unit they're transporting, and aside from simple transport don't offer any tremendous amount of firepower. So you're doubling or tripling the cost of an infantry unit for that mobility. In some sense that might be fine, but the problem is those infantry typically last one turn. They hop out of the Valk, shoot something with meltaguns or rapid-fire into something, and, in most cases, are usually quickly deleted soon after because IG troops die and/or break to a stiff breeze, and then you've got a worthless transport buzzing about, who's sole use then is plinking at random targets and hoping to jet into hover mode as a potential last-turn spoiler at best.

Yes, IG have Tauroxes. They're...well...bad. In a Marine army, these would be amazing. The problem is that they're not in a Marine army. The basic Taurox isn't faster than anything else is, and with its AV11, is usually the immediately identifiable weak spot in the armor-chain of otherwise AV12 & 14 vehicles, particularly when it lacks basic survival equipment like Smoke Launchers. An AV11 non-skimmer, non-Fast vehicle has relatively little value within the greater context of the IG army. It also wants to deploy infantry in the same manner as a Rhino. This would be fine if the infantry were Marines, but again, as with the Valkyrie, these are Guardsmen, and they die to a stiff breeze, which is a common thread here. Alternatively, there's also the Taurox Prime. This vehicle at least is Fast, so it's got that going for it, but is only available to Scion squads (horrifically overpriced and under-gunned Elites) and CCS's, so you're never going to have many. It also suffers from the problem of being very expensive, especially if you give it things like Smoke Launchers. If you kit these out as actual workhose units, they start to rival Russ tanks in cost.

Yes, the IG has Chimeras. These are both more expensive and less capable than in the previous codex, in an era where the core rules have really hammered this type of unit in general, particularly with the introduction of HP's. More to the point, it has the classic IG problem in that if it moves, it dies. It works great as a backfield bunker that can occasionally relocate, but if it actually has to advance and deliver troops then it runes into problems. It's a unit with respectable frontal armor, but tissue paper armor everywhere else, generally a grip of weapons that prefer firing at long ranges, and only one access point that works best at delivering infantry when by putting itself in its weakest possible position and pointing its one good armor value away from an enemy and exposing all of its very weak AV10 armor facings, in order to dump out infantry that, again, die to a stiff breeze.

Now, there are some ways to work around these things, but with the inflation in firepower, mobility, and resiliency of most other armies, coupled with the largely 5E-remnant nature of most of the IG army, trying to play "dynamic" highly mobile IG just doesn't work. We're not seeing IG armies fail to reach top tables at big tournaments just because everyone is "stuck being static", it's because the army literally just does not function that way, in large part by design as part of their character and in part because the army list was largely just a phone in slight re-hash of the 5E book.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Lasguns kill Power Armor and Terminators[/quiote] In theory they can. In practice not particularly well. An 10man squad of basic IG infantry rapid-firing lasguns will kill on average 1 single marine. Two squads will kill on average 1 single terminator. They are not effective tools in this sense, they are an afterthought of extraneous dice rolling.

[quore] Multilaser kill Rhinos

Much like Lasguns and Marines, not well. You need 6 Chimeras worth of multilaser fire to kill a Rhino on average through HP loss, assuming its not getting any cover saves.

and all those Lascannons kill the Land Raiders no one takes anymore.

IG actually are a really poor lascannon-spam army. IG don't utilize Lascannons particularly well with the singular exception of Vendettas. Their other options are largely limited to either single BS3 lascannons on things like Russ Tanks or Sentinels, or in infantry units. Within infantry units, you really have three options. One is the Vet squad, which gets you BS4, but largely fails to synergize with the 3 special weapons in terms of being able to effectively use them together. Another is Infantry Squads. These end up costing you 75pts apiece minimum for each BS3 Lascannon, not particularly stellar platforms. You last option is HWS's, which get you up to 3 Lascannons in a squad, but it's for 35pts each at BS3 on T3 5+sv Ld3 models that are forced to take a break test if even a single S6 hit gets through and can be wiped by a single assault cannon or Scatterbike.

Mechanized IG is still really good in game with terrain and Maelstrom style objectives.

I've never seen them perform particularly well, as what usually happens is that when they try to advance they open up and expose their line and get quickly cut to pieces, and still can't match the mobility of most other armies. In Maelstorm heavy tournaments, such armies routinely show very poorly.

A dynamic mind rather than a static mind. Those Marine you seem to fear struggle to kill AV12, by the way. Not every Marine totes a combi-Grav.

They don't need to. If those AV12 vehicles are running around being "dynamic", AV10 opens itself up quite easily, and likewise being able to drop-pod in with meltaguns solves a lot of those problems.

And why do you remotely care about Assaults? Each enemy unit stuck in combat with a platoon of Guard is a useless unit, effectively out of the game until the last Guardsman dies.

Only if you're talking about a blob platoon. Against just about literally any other IG unit, the IG unit auto-dies, and even with blobs, they're not the rock solid tarpits they used to be. Sure you may tie up that enemy unit, but that platoon likely costs more than that enemy unit too, so they're really keeping more of your forces tied down. That said, with things like Flayed Ones, Death Company, TWC's, or even just matching points worth of basic Assault marines thrown into them, they can absolutely be cut through, and Characters challenged-out. Hell, a trio of Thudnerfire cannons can wipe out a blob in one turn.

And once that last guy dies, you can then dump dice into wiping them out with massed fire.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:


So, please remind me, when did the AM codex lose all of it Chimera, Taurox, Valkyries, Sentinels, Rough Riders, and common sense?

First turn if you play against Eldar or Tau.
Second turn against most other lists.

Common sense is lost after you get all the hold an objective cards while the Tau player only draw kill cards in maelstrom.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
My original statement was that all codexes are dynamic, it is only player bias that is static. This was followed with a response filled with biased, static thinking, which proved my point.

So, please remind me, when did the AM codex lose all of it Chimera, Taurox, Valkyries, Sentinels, Rough Riders, and common sense?

SJ

But taking those units and using them in a "dynamic" way does not help wining. Offten it ends with the IG player losing faster. What sense is there in taking something like a RR or squad in a Taurox, if those units die without achiving anything good for the IG player ? Non, and non of those units are free, they cost points, so taking and trying to be "dynamic" with those options not only doesn't help to win, but also limits the number of points one can spend on less bad units. Out of those 5 units you listed 4 are never used in IG lists, because they are so bad, and one is used because there are no other transport options for vets and those still don't help IG to win.

In a Marine army, these would be amazing. The problem is that they're not in a Marine army. The basic Taurox isn't faster than anything else is, and with its AV11, is usually the immediately identifiable weak spot in the armor-chain of otherwise AV12 & 14 vehicles, particularly when it lacks basic survival equipment like Smoke Launchers.

In marines the taurox would be good, because it would be 0pts cost in gladius lists.

20 guardsmen gunning down a Terminator. That is 100 points killing 40 points in one shooting phase. That is... really not that bad?

A tactical squad firing at guardsmen in the same situation kills 43 points, but costs ~150.

 Ashiraya wrote:
20 guardsmen gunning down a Terminator. That is 100 points killing 40 points in one shooting phase. That is... really not that bad?

20 guardsmen in rapid fire range...so next turn they are in assault range. Then they quickly lose to the terminators. I don't believe 20 guardsmen fit in a transport either.
Also, terminators are bad. Needing 2.5 turns to earn your points back (roughly half the game) against a bad unit isn't exactly great. Especially since the termies are firing at 24" and eliminating the guardsmen in greater number. Plasma does help here however.

 Ashiraya wrote:

A tactical squad firing at guardsmen in the same situation kills 43 points, but costs ~150.

Each bolter round does 4/9 outside of cover (which reduces this. So every marine will almost kill a guardsmen. If they have the right CT, re-rolling 1's, every marine will kill a guardsmen. The guardsmen will be dead in about 2 turns.
The guardsmen firing back at the marines will kill just over 2 tactical marines (barring doctrines) (so about 30 points a turn?). It will take them 4 turns to kill the tacts at rapid fire range, barring orders.
Really, the big problem of guardsmen is their point cost for special weapons combined with BS 3 and being on a fragile platform. If the special weapons guys could re-roll 1's they would be a lot better.

Though, again, tactical marines are terrible troops and really shouldn't be used as a baseline if a unit is good. I used them to compare because they are terrible, but still outperform the dynamic aspects of the IG.

If you want to see if a unit is good, compare them to the better troop choices. Fire warriors are pretty good, Necron troops, eldar wind riders, grey hunters aren't terrible (though not nearly as good as they used to be).
But the vast majority of armies have terrible troop choices. Most competitive lists take the bare minimum of troops or use FoC altering abilities to change what they have to take. Even in the guard you don't see the basic guardsmen spammed.

 Ashiraya wrote:
20 guardsmen gunning down a Terminator. That is 100 points killing 40 points in one shooting phase. That is... really not that bad?

When just looking at it like that, no (though now they're 35pts not 40 , but when we start looking at the model count, distance requirements, risk of retaliation, coordination requirements, it's really ineffective. Having to coordinate twenty models into range for that is often quite difficult, often from two different units (unless it's a blob platoon), and then they're also in perfect retaliation range as well for the other 165pts of stuff they failed to kill.

A tactical squad firing at guardsmen in the same situation kills 43 points, but costs ~150.

Sure, but that has different results as well. You're almost wiping the entire unit at that point, reducing retaliatory capability by a much greater amount, and can choose to use pistols instead and follow up with an assault, almost assuredly wiping the unit with probably zero casualties and no remnants left for retaliation. They can also utilize combat tactics to split units to better place their firepower where it best needs to be. Being able to wipe an entire unit practically will generally have a lot more value than just killing a single model, especially when the game doesn't count unit cost towards victory conditions at all anymore, but simple unit count.