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Ok Mazdamundi's fluff does not match his in game power. Plus he is in no way worth 600 points.

I would add him having at least Focused Rumination, and Becalming Cogitation.


Lord Kroak...

Special Rules add: Loremaster

Replace First Generation Spawing with the following:

"It is said of the Venerable Lord Kroak that within the depths of his unfathomable mind, he holds more forgotten knowledge than even the greatest mages will ever attain.

Lord Kroak is treated as a level 5 Wizard and may select any two Lores from the Warhammer Rulebook. In addition he knows The Deliverance of Itza. There is no limit to the number of dice that Lord Kroak can use when casting a spell. If Lord Kroak casts Irrestestable Force, the casting attempt automaticlly fails, but no roll on the Miscast table is made."


Replace Spirit of Lord Kroak with the following:

"Lord Kroak's mortal remains are infused with the arcane power of the Old Ones.

Lord Kroak channels on a 2+."


Add the following special rule:

"Master of the Disciplines:
Lord Kroak has all the Disciplines listed on pg. 43."


And then increase his point cost to 750.



Oxyotol should cost around 115.



Tehenhauin should cost around 200.



I should go over the other ones but... If you wanna do that post your change below.

I once knew a man who played Mazumundi in a lizardmen MSU dino army. It was truly a sight to behold

Lol, themed army?

It started as a themed army until he started rolling over folks pretty hard.

Sounds fun. If you have some way of getting or remembering the general idea of it, I would love to see it.

This was 2500 and purely from my not so great memory

Mazzy
1-2 Engines (I think it was 1)
MSU skinks (like 5 units of 20 or so)
2-3 Baby Stegs (Two sounds right)
Chammys
two maxed out sallie packs

Lol, that's... Crazy sauce. I'd love to play against someone with that list, but it's not really my cup of tea.

It was a very strange list as he would use skinks as bait to give up your flank to the Stegs or Sallies

More OT I think Kroak is still way to cheap for what he does

I have to disagree, Kroak is awful now... In my opinion. The way he is he isn't worth any more than 300.

Well you have to keep in mind his spell used to make armies in 7th pee themselves. But more recently I watched a game against him and someone slapped down a spell-eater... Funny stuff

Lol, what's a spell eater?

Simply because of mass dispels and spell stealing, having one spell isn't worthwhile. I wouldn't advocate making Kroak even more expensive no matter what you did. There's simply no reason.

If it was treated as like a bound spell that couldn't be stolen and could IF and not miscast I'd say he would be pretty much be very near his worth. Cuz you know that AE bomb is coming forward and there's not much you can do about it except spread out and fight other stuff or do your damndest to take him out fast. But those are also kind of lame conditions to have in a game. In 7th that's what did happen and he could ravage huge swaths of infantry. Every Slann is capable of being one of the top casters in the entire game. That exists now. I don't think trying to make Kroak one more than that is necessary or unique. And he's dead, so he's not nearly as active as he used to be. He's busy doing dead stuff.

Mazdamundi is actually worth his price. Very easily. Just break out the points for a mega dino and a buffed slaan. The only reason people don't take him is he's cannon-fodder and TG mass is so much safer. But his mount is as tough as an Ancient Steg with a better armor save and gives it to the rider as well, making him crazy hard to hurt against anything non-monster or war machine. No blowpipes and such, but it's still worth at least 250. Which means Maz himself would have to be worth <400 and he certainly is. BSB = 25, Soul + Loremaster = 50, which would be 350. Then he gets Stubborn, Ruination of Cities and a mace. He's most definately worth his points. It's just generic slann are more flexible.

But again, VERY few SC in any book in the entirety of WHFB are actually worth their points vs. generic lords/heroes. What you get is fluff and generally some abilities that simply don't exist anywhere else in the book. Like a slaan on a dinosaur. If you just want bang-for-buck, you should almost never look at SC. Slann are perfect. You can even call him Mazdamundi when he got tired of his bumpy ride.

LordHamshire wrote:Lol, what's a spell eater?

spelleater rune. or a similar effect magic item.
what it does is dispel the spell like a scroll, then on a 4+ the caster forgets or loses the ability to cast it anymore that game.

mazamundi is a bit of a holdover character from the glory days of herohammer.
back then he was a beast that could the crap out of armies.
had his own spell lore and everything
it was nasty

LordHamshire wrote:I have to disagree, Kroak is awful now... In my opinion. The way he is he isn't worth any more than 300.

Having fought Kroak recently 3 times with both ogres and vampires, I can say he is very worth his points.
In a single magic phase, he did 21 unsaved wounds to an ogre bull unit, and over 18 wounds to a leadbelcher unit.
If he can survive in close, one good magic phase takes out huge chunks of the opponents army.
Temple guard are that close in survival.
If it weren't for the thief stones giving my generals unit MR, I would have lost the game by turn 3.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

LordHamshire wrote:I have to disagree, Kroak is awful now... In my opinion. The way he is he isn't worth any more than 300.

Having fought Kroak recently 3 times with both ogres and vampires, I can say he is very worth his points.
In a single magic phase, he did 21 unsaved wounds to an ogre bull unit, and over 18 wounds to a leadbelcher unit.
If he can survive in close, one good magic phase takes out huge chunks of the opponents army.
Temple guard are that close in survival.
If it weren't for the thief stones giving my generals unit MR, I would have lost the game by turn 3.

-Matt

I'm with Matt on this one, Kroak can be horrific to play against, he completely blew my shaman spam list out of the water

I will say that his inability to cast with irresistible force is lame, but that's about it, really. And make it so his one spell can't be stolen.
Also, I liked the idea that the Lizardmen could never do better than a draw if he died.

Logistically, he should be better than any other Slann. But Slann are already so good that'd be lame. But maybe Slann should just be less good!

I mostly agree with Matt and Duke here. I will say that special characters generally cost too much, though. There's no reason to pay more than an ability's worth just 'cause "it's totally unique" or whatever. That's not how it works. Abilities have effects. Those effects should equal their points.
I think your suggestions make sense, especially for Kroak (being more powerful for more points, though the double-Loremaster thing is more than a little zany, even for him), but as others have said, I think he's also potentially okay the way he is.

The no Irresistable isn't that big of a deal. Kroak is a powerhouse, because he can toss pairs of dice for a 6" or 12" nuke all day long.
+1 T and W, along with 3+ ward is really nice.

Had a magic phase where Kroak started with 11 dice to my 3. He threw 2 dice 5 times and 1 die to end the phase.
How did he get 11 power dice to my 3? Because you build an army around Kroak, and that cheap level 1 priest had a Rod of Power; Bam, +D6 power dice.

Not a lot of Armies can stand up to a magic phase nuking like that. Seriously, doing 8D6 (28 average) S4 hits on EVERY unit anywhere near the middle of the table is brutal (S5 if daemon/undead).

Combine that with some salamanders, and you don't have much left alive by the time you get to the close combat phase.


-Matt

It's super high risk, high reward. You indeed have to build a list around him. Unless you're playing a 10,000 pt game or something.

So if someone steals or mindwipes his only spell, you basically got a REALLY expensive and hard-to-hurt TG buffer.

There's very few SC Lords that are competitive. And I think that's fine. If Kroak is uber then every army has Kroak. There's 50 Kroaks per tournament. It loses it's SPECIAL character appeal.

I was just looking at Khairos again and I was like, yeah, that guy can do a whole lot. 2500pt game minimum. Can't be bunkered. Sucks butt in combat. But if he works he really works.

DukeRustfield wrote:It's super high risk, high reward. You indeed have to build a list around him. Unless you're playing a 10,000 pt game or something.
So if someone steals or mindwipes his only spell, you basically got a REALLY expensive and hard-to-hurt TG buffer.
There's very few SC Lords that are competitive. And I think that's fine. If Kroak is uber then every army has Kroak. There's 50 Kroaks per tournament. It loses it's SPECIAL character appeal.
I was just looking at Khairos again and I was like, yeah, that guy can do a whole lot. 2500pt game minimum. Can't be bunkered. Sucks butt in combat. But if he works he really works.

Destroying spells isn't that common. Dwarves can multiple times, Daemons can once (Lord of Change or Daemon Prince only), Empire can destroy onces and try and steal.
That's it.
Of those 3, armies, I don't typically see any of them showing up with a spell destroyer.
It's kind of like those race specific magical items. Dwarf Bane (skaven) is really good against dwarves; but how often do you see that in a tournament?

As for the whole army being built around Kroak, it kind of is. Temple guard are great with any slaan, and 100 points to have +D6 power dice is worth it with any slaan as well. After that, it's all about closing in are setting off the air-raid siren.

-Matt

High Elves also can. I'm not going to look around to all the models and items, but I'd guess about 1/3 of WHFB has a 50% chance of making Kroak basically worthless. It used to be more common in pre-8th and I think because of guys like Kroak they realized it was too uber and took it out. None of the new books (I think) have it.