Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Justices trying to skirt around curtailing free speech and preserve the military's dignity all at once.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/23/us/stolen-valor-act-argued-before-supreme-court.html

Over the course of an hourlong argument on Wednesday, the Supreme Court seemed gradually to accept that it might be able to uphold a federal law that makes it a crime to lie about military honors, notwithstanding the First Amendment’s free speech guarantees. The justices were aided by suggestions from the government about how to limit the scope of a possible ruling in its favor and by significant concessions from a lawyer for the defendant

This is a tough question. Do we allow people to impersonate civil servants, or allow them freedom of speech?

I say yes.

Chowderhead wrote:This is a tough question. Do we allow people to impersonate civil servants, or allow them freedom of speech?

I say yes.

Typically, these sorts of "impersonations" are only OK so long as no one gets hurt... I mean, if someone is choking in a restaurant, and I go up and say "I'm a doctor, I can help you" (I'm not.. just an average joe soldier), there are all sorts of issues with that, because of the harm/help situation. Usually, at least from what I've seen, the Gov't doesn't care if you say you are a rock star, astronaut, soldier, marine, doctor, police, etc. so long as you saying so doesn't create a situation that ultimately causes harm to someone, or multiple people.. Typically, guys who are claiming to be vets (and aren't) are doing so because they want the VA assistance that we service members are usually entitled to after our service, and lying to get that service causes harm to the 'real' vets out there because of rising costs, and the system gets to be more full creating less time to receive services, etc.


I think that, so long as impersonation does not fall into other legal categories then it's fine, that person just needs to deal with the fallout when they're found out.

Justice Stephen G. Breyer said it was all right to lie, for instance, when asked, “Are there Jews hiding in the cellar?”

Godwin'd.

I'm inclined to think you have a first amendment right to lie in general and that if doing so profited you in some way, there already are numerous strong remedies for that under existing fraud statutes.

I doubt there's much to be gained from the VA by walking in and saying "I used to be a soldier." The VA can find out if you're lying pretty damn fast.

Mostly this issue is sentimental. Impersonating a soldier can get one many things (respect, cheaper prices, and I'm sure other stuff) which many real veterans take as insulting. Normally I'd say suck it up, but being a soldier is a lifestyle in itself. Its not the same as being a part of normal society, so special care and rules may be warranted (or maybe not).

LordofHats wrote:Impersonating a soldier can get one many things (respect, cheaper prices, and I'm sure other stuff) which many real veterans take as insulting.

Dubyuh actually was in the Military, though. A pilot, as I recall.

He's also the Commander in Chief of the armed forces at the time that picture was taken, so he's really not out of line.

Monster Rain wrote:Dubyuh actually was in the Military, though. A pilot, as I recall.

He's also the Commander in Chief of the armed forces at the time that picture was taken, so he's really not out of line.

I never said he wasn't in the military , my point was that he was "impersonating a soldier".

I mean unless you consider those who dodge active service in Vietnam with mysterious six month absences to avoid being deployed under a cloud of family influence true soldiers...

His appearance on that carrier declaring what he did is one of the most absurd things in recent presidential history.

The fact that he ( a dodger) chose to mock the sacrifice and service of actual pilots who flew into combat by playing dress up was icing on the cake...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:

He's also the Commander in Chief of the armed forces at the time that picture was taken, so he's really not out of line.

LOL

Do you actually convince yourself into believing what you type?

So Obama shold start making public appearances in Seal team gear...

Er... I was never a Bush supporter, but he was CIC of the US Armed Forces. That's... not even debatable.

And when you're the guy in charge, you get to fly around in the airplane if you want to.

sourclams wrote:Er... I was never a Bush supporter, but he was CIC of the US Armed Forces. That's... not even debatable.

And when you're the guy in charge, you get to fly around in the airplane if you want to.

Again: not questioning the fact he was CIC.

Questioning if you can consider a coward who had his family pull strings to get him out of deployment to Viet Nam a true "soldier"?

I'm pretty sure the average dodger would not be looked kindly upon if he started showing up places in military dress pretending to be a war hero.

Again, hypocricy in action.


So Obama would be fully in his rights and be exempt from any scorn if he decided to started doing photo ops dressed as a navy Seal?

CT GAMER wrote:

sourclams wrote:Er... I was never a Bush supporter, but he was CIC of the US Armed Forces. That's... not even debatable.

And when you're the guy in charge, you get to fly around in the airplane if you want to.

Again: not questioning the fact he was CIC.

Questioning if you can consider a coward who had his family pull strings to get him out of deployment to Viet Nam a true "soldier"?

I'm pretty sure the average dodger would not be looked kindly upon if he started showing up places in military dress pretending to be a war hero.

Again, hypocricy in action.


So Obama would be fully in his rights and be exempt from any scorn if he decided to started doing photo ops dressed as a navy Seal?

What were Biden's and Bill Clinton's excuses?

Stormrider wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

sourclams wrote:Er... I was never a Bush supporter, but he was CIC of the US Armed Forces. That's... not even debatable.

And when you're the guy in charge, you get to fly around in the airplane if you want to.

Again: not questioning the fact he was CIC.

Questioning if you can consider a coward who had his family pull strings to get him out of deployment to Viet Nam a true "soldier"?

I'm pretty sure the average dodger would not be looked kindly upon if he started showing up places in military dress pretending to be a war hero.

Again, hypocricy in action.


So Obama would be fully in his rights and be exempt from any scorn if he decided to started doing photo ops dressed as a navy Seal?

What were Biden's and Bill Clinton's excuses?

Don't know. I personally wouldn't make any excuses for them. A dodger is a dodger. Though has either dressed up as a fighter pilot for a photo-op?

The issue isn't so much that W dodged, but that he had the gaul to dress up in fighter pilot garb after doing so for a photo-op with a smug grin on his face pretending he was some great military leader back from the front lines...


Also pictures exist like this:


Bush is wearing an award (Air Force Outstanding Unit Award) there is no record of him receiving...

Would that be considered "faking military credentials?

This Stolen Valor thing is going too far. It's really just sick, and I can't believe ass hats like these guys exist. The length at which these people will lie and worm their way out of tough questions, ie "What unit were you in/ where were you on 9/11/ did you serve in XXX, I had a buddy there".

I watched a retired SEAL's expose on Stolen Valor, particularly concerning SEAL impersonators, and I was just amazed how widespread these things are.

Some guys are modest... USMC Sergeant or something easy. Not too many medals, uniform is correct, etc. A good impersonator. But then you get to guys who claim to be a MARSOC operator who served in Iraq as a master sniper who earned a silver star and who did EOD at the same time, or a Rear Admiral that's also a SEAL with a master diver bade... Ridiculous.

I'm kind of surprised it wasn't already something like a fine or minor community service to begin with.

CT GAMER wrote:Though has either dressed up as a fighter pilot for a photo-op?

To be fair, I don't think the flight suit carries quite the degree of reverence that a dress uniform, or set of fatigues does. After all, how many TV shows have you seen where the host goes for a ride in a jet, and has to wear the standard g-suit?

Intent is also important, if some dude dresses up as a soldier, authentic fatigues and all, on Halloween I don't think anyone is going to care. Its not like its hard to get ACUs.

CT GAMER wrote:

Bush is wearing an award (Air Force Outstanding Unit Award) there is no record of him receiving...

Would that be considered "faking military credentials?

Unit awards are not given the same way, with the same sort of records that personal awards are. Plus, unit awards are bordered by gold "wheat" even in the AF. So, neither of those are unit awards (and there is only two, so I would presume that they are ones given for completing basic training type events). It is quite obvious to me that this picture was taken for graduation or some other military record type event, so I highly doubt that there is any faking going on here.


Also, the military wouldn't let you fly in an aircraft like a fighter jet without proper gear. Its the same thing with helicopters. With the exception of Marine One, everyone must be in full sleeved, full legged pants, boots (or their complete service uniform, ACUs, etc.) helmet and whatnot. And even with Marine One, the Pres. still is wearing full sleeves and long pants

CT GAMER wrote:I never said he wasn't in the military , my point was that he was "impersonating a soldier".

Your point doesn't make any sense, then.

CT GAMER wrote:Do you actually convince yourself into believing what you type?.

Did I say something that is hard to believe? Criticizing Bush for things that he should be criticized for is one thing, conflating wearing a flight suit while riding in a fighter jet with faking military credentials is laughable.

CT GAMER wrote:So Obama shold start making public appearances in Seal team gear...

This is fallacy. Someone should tell him what kind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Though has either dressed up as a fighter pilot for a photo-op?

To be fair, I don't think the flight suit carries quite the degree of reverence that a dress uniform, or set of fatigues does.

It doesn't, and a wearing a flight suit if you're riding in a military aircraft has significant health benefits. Such as maybe keeping you from catching on fire. All those vehicles are built by the lowest bidder, after all.

Monster Rain wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:I never said he wasn't in the military , my point was that he was "impersonating a soldier".

Your point doesn't make any sense, then.

CT GAMER wrote:Do you actually convince yourself into believing what you type?.

Did I say something that is hard to believe? Criticizing Bush for things that he should be criticized for is one thing, conflating wearing a flight suit while riding in a fighter jet with faking military credentials is laughable.

CT GAMER wrote:So Obama shold start making public appearances in Seal team gear...

This is fallacy. Someone should tell him what kind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Though has either dressed up as a fighter pilot for a photo-op?

To be fair, I don't think the flight suit carries quite the degree of reverence that a dress uniform, or set of fatigues does.

It doesn't, and a wearing a flight suit if you're riding in a military aircraft has significant health benefits. Such as maybe keeping you from catching on fire. All those vehicles are built by the lowest bidder, after all.

That is all.

CT GAMER wrote:
That is all.

Defense mechanism.

That is all.

So, we start with a debate about the limitations to the 1st amendment.

Godwin applies by the 4th post. And, this turns into a full-out Dem vs Rep mud-slinging match by the 6th post.

Add to that the fact that the linked article requires a subscription to read, and I think we've officially made the worst thread of the year! Congrats!

Grakmar wrote:So, we start with a debate about the limitations to the 1st amendment.

Godwin applies by the 4th post. And, this turns into a full-out Dem vs Rep mud-slinging match by the 6th post.

It only seems like one person is slinging mud.

Everyone else was wondering what the big deal about wearing a flight suit is.

Grakmar wrote:Godwin applies by the 4th post. And, this turns into a full-out Dem vs Rep mud-slinging match by the 6th post.

You misspelled anti-Bush rant.

Grakmar wrote:Add to that the fact that the linked article requires a subscription to read, and I think we've officially made the worst thread of the year! Congrats!

Here's a non-paywall site.

IMO dressing up like a soldier is protected 1st Amendment speech. Falsely portraying yourself as a soldier is not protected 1st Amendment speech.

I suppose saying "Go." would entitle O. to wear a Seal patch correct? Seems like the liberal media gave him the credit. From the news, an idiot (typical leftist) < Ya... that's a violation of rule #1 in case you think that is somehow not rude. You are running out of warnings my friend. MT11 would believe that O. led the team.

Flight suits & G suit harness' are common gear in fighter aircraft that prevent high G blackouts. So PLEASE; pull a nice turn without one.

As for the GRADUATION picture: It is common practice in the military (at least when I was in) to take the graduation pic in a jacket that everyone shares *exception of name plate* as soon as you get your first haircut and TA50 issued.
Due to a screw up; my family had my Class A grad pics a week before I actually graduated.
(Bush could have used an eyebrow trim though. Dont think those are in spec.)

gregor_xenos wrote:I suppose saying "Go." would entitle O. to wear a Seal patch correct? Seems like the liberal media gave him the credit. From the news, an idiot (typical leftist) would believe that O. led the team.

As the leader of the military he did lead the team. That is what the leader of the military does. Everyone involved got credit, though most prominently The Commander-in-Chief and the SEAL team. The seal team got most of the accolades, but it seems odd to deny that it didn't happen under President Obama's administration or to deny that he was the one that made the final decision to go in after being presented all the facts, addressing the legal questions, and assessing the international issues. I'm willing to be if he decided not to go in through awesomeness, but instead tried to get UBL through diplomacy, you would be complaining he should have gone in militarily and that he is weak. It is a no win situation; either he didn't do anything or he is to weak. One might think that you would hate him no matter what he did, even if it was something you like, like being aggressive and taking out a dangerous foreign agent.

I don't see how impersonating a member of the armed forces should be "free speech". What fraudulent claims of other sorts could count as "free speech" as well? And is is fraud to claim military honours and ranks you don't have, just as it should be to falsely claim medical and academic qualifications.

I'm a strong defender of the right to free speech, but that doesn't mean you can lie and deceive people, presumably to get freebies and other gratuities sent your way.

It's illegal to impersonate police officers, seeing as soldiers can have similar duties involving maintaining law and order it should be an offence to impersonate them too IMO. I think it's a risky 'hobby' to dress up as any uniformed authority figure in public unless it's obvious that you aren't the genuine article. These girls nights out where they all dress as police women for example, that's not 'impersonation'. But someone putting on the gear and walking around pretending to be the real thing? A lot of potential for abuse there.

I agree with Biccat; dressing as a soldier should not be illegal in itself. Dressing as a soldier in order to commit fraud is covered by existing laws.

CT GAMER wrote:Though has either dressed up as a fighter pilot for a photo-op?

Niether is or ever has been a fighter pilot. Bush on the other hand was, you know aside from being a passenger and wearing the proper personal protection gear.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Bush is wearing an award (Air Force Outstanding Unit Award) there is no record of him receiving...

Would that be considered "faking military credentials?

Unit awards are not given the same way, with the same sort of records that personal awards are. Plus, unit awards are bordered by gold "wheat" even in the AF. So, neither of those are unit awards (and there is only two, so I would presume that they are ones given for completing basic training type events).

The AF outstanding unit award does not have a wheat border. Although some AF awards do have one, those are only awards in common with other branches of service like the Presidential Unit Citation or any of the Joint unit awards.
http://www.afpc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=7785
http://www.foxfall.com/fra-afua.htm


As for the GRADUATION picture: It is common practice in the military (at least when I was in) to take the graduation pic in a jacket that everyone shares *exception of name plate* as soon as you get your first haircut and TA50 issued.
Due to a screw up; my family had my Class A grad pics a week before I actually graduated.
(Bush could have used an eyebrow trim though. Dont think those are in spec.)

FFS, this is not an article about George W. Bush. Please start a new thread if you wish to discuss that.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't see how impersonating a member of the armed forces should be "free speech". What fraudulent claims of other sorts could count as "free speech" as well? And is is fraud to claim military honours and ranks you don't have, just as it should be to falsely claim medical and academic qualifications.

I'm a strong defender of the right to free speech, but that doesn't mean you can lie and deceive people, presumably to get freebies and other gratuities sent your way.

I agree with you, but my feeling is that once you start benefiting from your fraudulent claims, you can be prosecuted under existing fraud laws. I don't think claiming to be a navy seal in a bar to pick up a chick should be a felony in and of itself.

I vaguely remember the 1st was intended to protect political speech. I'm not sure how claiming to have been awarded the Medal of Honor counts as political/protected speech.

Having said that, as many on this thread have pointed out, making the claim is different from benefitting from making the claim (or even making it in an attempt to gain some benefit).

For me the issue is prosecutability. I claim to have been awarded the MOH and someone gives me a few 100 to 1000s in speaking fees is generally NOT going to meet the threshold for a prosecutor to go after me for existing fraud laws. I may be subject to civil laws but the guy/gal/group I committed fraud against will have to have the financial resources to go after me, and if I didn't walk away with enough money, it will likely not be worth the resources such a lawsuit takes.

That is where the Stolen Valor Act comes in. It gives the prosecutor a new law that may make it easier and more worthwhile to prosecute even when the monetary/benefit threshold isn't very high.

Having said that, most if not all the crap bags that pull this type of crap get caught out. Public humiliation, destroying reputations and ensuring they are known as the crap bags they are is good enough for me. I'm not convinced more federal laws are the right answer.

Ouze wrote:
I agree with you, but my feeling is that once you start benefiting from your fraudulent claims, you can be prosecuted under existing fraud laws. I don't think claiming to be a navy seal in a bar to pick up a chick should be a felony in and of itself.

Not sure if my stance was adequately expressed earlier, but this is essentially what I was getting at... Using the Seal/bar example, say you get lucky and pick up said chick at bar claiming to be a SEAL and rather than a one night stand you end up in a relationship.... Well, eventually she will find out that you were never a SEAL and you will have to deal with the fallout on a personal level. To me, this sort of "false honor" is A-OK, because ultimately you are hurting yourself (and the bar chick, which means that hopefully she would eventually wise up and find an actual Nice Guy).

There have been cases of guys claiming VA benefits who were never in any service to begin with. This I have a problem with, as although they DO get caught and tried for the existing fraud laws, they significantly detract from the care that REAL vets deserve, they drain resources and time of care- and service-providers, which causes significant problems for those who have legitimately earned them.

Claiming to be a MoH winner is quite stupid, as the guy in California should never have been hired in the first place (in this day in age, all it takes is a very quick Google/wikipedia search to see EVERYONE who has earned a MoH), but if they hired him because of his race, etc. because they were afraid of the backlash.... well, basically if they denied his hiring, and he cried RACE!!! then they would say "D-bag who doesn't actually have what he claims and LIED on a job interview and resume!"