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Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Hey Dakka, I seem to be catching a lot of flak, some people have said I was insane. So I decided to take some time, think it out, and really explain my ideology as best I can. Hopefully after reading this, certain people won't find me quite as insane.

What is a Libertarian?

Everybody has the dignity and the responsible to make decisions in their own life. Most Americans think that the most important thing isn't the individual, it's the government. Most people believe that the government take care of us and help the weak and the poor. But I don't think like that, I don't think the government is more important than the individual. There are people that think that there should be a bigger government then I think and people think that their ideas should be imposed on people.

There is a book called "3 felonies a day" that says that there are so many regulations that you may be braking the law everyday without even knowing it. And then There is the defaults, we're seeing it in Greece, and in Europe and it's coming here. WE CAN NOT AFFORD the promises the government has made.

Let's start with lower and flatter tax system? Let's do way with the department of education. (that by the way, doesn't even educate) Let's move away from social security to a system where people save for there own retirement?

Can social safety nets be privately funded?

The welfare system isn't needed, there used to be local organization like churches, and racial group like the polish in New York, where people would contribution to a common pool, for friends and relatives. And poverty was declining, until the "War on Poverty" started then people who used to contribute to these charities said "why contribute to these charities when there is a 30 million dollar system to take care of it?" and then we've seen the poverty leveled off.

Can the market address issues like race and poverty?

We've come a long way, but one thing that creates racial inequality is terrible schools in the inner city, and who provides those schools? The government. What kept black people down in America for many years? first slavery, then Jim Crow, big government programs, What happened when we got rid of them? A lot more equality, a lot more maneuverability. What kept women down? Laws that restricted their occupation. What kept gay people out? sodomy laws.

Small government isn't just a government that taxes less.

A Libertarian works to reduce the government size,scope, and power over the individual. Sending people off to war, spend our money, wasting peoples lives, that's big government. And inequality of marriage law, that's a big government thing that conservative often support. A small government is a government that has less intrusiveness into our lives.


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United States

broodstar wrote: And poverty was declining, until the "War on Poverty" started then people who used to contribute to these charities said "why contribute to these charities when there is a 30 million dollar system to take care of it?" and then we've seen the poverty leveled off.


Apparently being a libertarian also means not looking at historical poverty data. The percentage of people living below 125% poverty was ~26% in 1964, when EOA was passed. It continued to fall after the passage of EOA, and has not reached that level since.

You can argue that, in the absence of EOA there would be even less poverty, but there's no direct evidence to support that position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
broodstar wrote:
Everybody has the dignity and the responsible to make decisions in their own life.


Sure, but that doesn't free you from the consequences of those decisions.

No matter how oppressive the law may be, you're still free to do whatever you want, you just might suffer a certain set of consequences.

Of course, when we're talking about "freedom" politically, we're generally talking about the freedom from certain consequences, for certain action.

broodstar wrote:
Most Americans think that the most important thing isn't the individual, it's the government.


That's probably not true, but I don't have statistics to back up that assertion. Though I would also guess that most people think they're more important to themselves than most other people.

broodstar wrote:
Most people believe that the government take care of us and help the weak and the poor. But I don't think like that, I don't think the government is more important than the individual.


Believing that the individual is more important than the state does not entail believing that the government shouldn't help the weak and poor.

broodstar wrote:
We've come a long way, but one thing that creates racial inequality is terrible schools in the inner city, and who provides those schools? The government.


You know why the inner city schools that are terrible, are terrible, right? No funding, because funding is tied to districted property taxes, in most cases.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/25 07:37:47


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





The Poverty rates from the census bureau

1969 13.7%
1979 12.4%
1989 13.1%
1999 12.6%
2009 13.1%

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/census/1960/cphl162.html
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/incpovhlth/1999/fig08.gif
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032010/rdcall/2_001.htm

Your right it did dip a couple of times.

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United States

The poverty rate when EOA was passed was 19%. It hasn't been that high since the passage of EOA.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





I did some digging and found the wiki page on the EOA , as well multiple democrat sites and they did say 19%. But while digging further to confirm this I didn't come across the actual census from 1964. I did however find the census record from 1963 and searched it for the word poverty. No matches, So I find it funny that they knew the poverty rate when they weren't tracking it.

http://www2.census.gov/prod2/statcomp/documents/1963-05.pdf


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually on that same note that does leave a bad taste in my mouth about my source.

How did you know poverty was declining until EOA if no one was tracking it?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/25 08:40:22


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United States

broodstar wrote:
How did you know poverty was declining until EOA if no one was tracking it?


The poverty rate has been tracked, officially, since 1959.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





dogma wrote:
broodstar wrote:
How did you know poverty was declining until EOA if no one was tracking it?


The poverty rate has been tracked, officially, since 1959.


Well Sir, you have found it. /clap Now let's examine the graph on page 16 shall we. The first line shows (light pink) shows the levels for ages 65 and old, it's highest point is 1959 at 34% and it's lowest point is 2008 at 9.7% EOA is working! The middle line shows the levels for ages under 18, it's highest point is 1959 at 27% and lowest point is in 1969 at 14%. Not as good, but still working. the bottom line shows the levels for ages 18 to 64, it's highest point is 1959 at 15.5% and lowest point is in 1974 at 8%. Doesn't seem to be working that much.

Averages of that data

1959 26%
1969 16%
1979 13%
1989 13%
1999 12%
2008 13%




Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can argue that for the elderly war on poverty is working great. and even working for teenagers. But from that chart, for adults it doesn't look like it did a whole lot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/25 10:08:33


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Libertarianism is unrealistic.

 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





rockerbikie wrote:Libertarianism is unrealistic.


How so? supporting details?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@dogma

When I take the average from 1964 it's 20%. So yeah the whole population's poverty rate has dropped 7%. But I think the key thing to take away is poverty in the elderly has dropped 20%
but teenages and adults over the coarse of the program has only dropped 1%. If it was marketed as aid to the elderly I'd stand behind it a full100%

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/25 10:35:05


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broodstar wrote:
rockerbikie wrote:Libertarianism is unrealistic.


How so? supporting details?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@dogma

When I take the average from 1964 it's 20%. So yeah the whole population's poverty rate has dropped 7%. But I think the key thing to take away is poverty in the elderly has dropped 20%
but teenages and adults over the coarse of the program has only dropped 1%. If it was marketed as aid to the elderly I'd stand behind it a full100%

Emphasize freedom, individual liberty, and voluntary association. Libertarians generally advocate a society with small or no government power. We need Government intervention in our life to make a society funtionable. If there is little to no intervention then all will turn to Chaos and Anarchy pretty fast. Freedom is important but we need to also considered that society needs to work in an orderly fashion, instead of something disruptive. We need rescritions on many things so Society can function normally without Chaos and Anarchy. A life without crime, without disease is possible if everyone worked together with the restraints of Government which we should trust to do the best for us.

 
   
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United States

broodstar wrote:Not as good, but still working. the bottom line shows the levels for ages 18 to 64, it's highest point is 1959 at 15.5% and lowest point is in 1974 at 8%. Doesn't seem to be working that much.

Averages of that data

1959 26%
1969 16%
1979 13%
1989 13%
1999 12%
2008 13%


I'm not even arguing that EOA made things better, I'm arguing that it didn't make things worse.

And, honestly, if you think the data you've presented here supports your argument, then you are a series of words I cannot use without being suspended.

When you tell me poverty numbers were higher prior to EOA, and lower after it, and then pretend that poverty made EOA worse it is gracious to assume that you're delusional.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





dogma wrote:

broodstar wrote:
We've come a long way, but one thing that creates racial inequality is terrible schools in the inner city, and who provides those schools? The government.


You know why the inner city schools that are terrible, are terrible, right? No funding, because funding is tied to districted property taxes, in most cases.


I'd like to draw you're attention to a women named Eva Moskowitz, she's the founder and ceo of Success Charter Network in Harlem New York. Harlem Success Academy gets actually less money than public schools do. HSA tested 32nd last year out of the 3000 school in New York state, and no school scored higher on the math exam than HSA. The different being non-union, HSA teaches from 7 am til 4pm. (2 more hours than the union contract will allow) Everyday there is a reminder that the goal is college, classrooms are named after the teacher's college, and every student know his or her college graduation date. And what do parents think of this? There are so many applicants that they have to decide admission by lottery, with thousands of applicants and only hundreds of slots.

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United States

broodstar wrote:
I'd like to draw you're attention to a women named Eva Moskowitz, she's the founder and ceo of Success Charter Network in Harlem New York. Harlem Success Academy gets actually less money than public schools do. HSA tested 32nd last year out of the 3000 school in New York state, and no school scored higher on the math exam than HSA. The different being non-union, HSA teaches from 7 am til 4pm. (2 more hours than the union contract will allow) Everyday there is a reminder that the goal is college, classrooms are named after the teacher's college, and every student know his or her college graduation date. And what do parents think of this? There are so many applicants that they have to decide admission by lottery, with thousands of applicants and only hundreds of slots.


First, this doesn't address my point, which is that inner city schools fail because district based property taxes are limited to the property taxes in their district.

Second, its not called "Harlem Success Academies" its called "Success Academy Charter". One assumes you focused on Harlem because you read some news article, and paid no more attention.

Third, the SCN achieves good results, and uses methods that public schools should use, but no one wants to pay for them; or believes in their necessity (laptops, and tablets).

broodstar wrote:And what do parents think of this? There are so many applicants that they have to decide admission by lottery, with thousands of applicants and only hundreds of slots.


Yes, let's decide the merit of high school education based on the nominal metric for American higher education, that will do wonders.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/02/25 11:51:41


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Libertarianism is an extreme right-wing ideology in every country outside of the USA. There's a reason it's shunned in polite society.

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Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





rockerbikie wrote:
Emphasize freedom, individual liberty, and voluntary association. Libertarians generally advocate a society with small or no government power. We need Government intervention in our life to make a society funtionable. If there is little to no intervention then all will turn to Chaos and Anarchy pretty fast. Freedom is important but we need to also considered that society needs to work in an orderly fashion, instead of something disruptive. We need rescritions on many things so Society can function normally without Chaos and Anarchy. A life without crime, without disease is possible if everyone worked together with the restraints of Government which we should trust to do the best for us.


A government doesn't need to be that large to manage affairs, freedom is one thing anarchy is another. I attest that you don't need that big of a government to make society orderly. Look at your local government, it makes thing orderly, you're local government provides a sheriff, and a fire department, even writes it's own laws to keep everything orderly and its government isn't big at all. "with the restraints of the government" that sounds to must like a police state. New Year's eve president Obama sign national defense authorization act section1031, which says that the military can be used to attack citizens of the US them indefinably without charge or trial, offshore. Sir, that is an eminence over stepping of personal liberty and trampling of the constitution by the federal government, and we fought it tooth and nail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Joey wrote:Libertarianism is an extreme right-wing ideology in every country outside of the USA. There's a reason it's shunned in polite society.


shunned from polite society, this coming from a continent that allows public nudity...ok,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/25 12:21:07


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Wollongong, Australia

broodstar wrote:
rockerbikie wrote:
Emphasize freedom, individual liberty, and voluntary association. Libertarians generally advocate a society with small or no government power. We need Government intervention in our life to make a society funtionable. If there is little to no intervention then all will turn to Chaos and Anarchy pretty fast. Freedom is important but we need to also considered that society needs to work in an orderly fashion, instead of something disruptive. We need rescritions on many things so Society can function normally without Chaos and Anarchy. A life without crime, without disease is possible if everyone worked together with the restraints of Government which we should trust to do the best for us.


A government doesn't need to be that large to manage affairs, freedom is one thing anarchy is another. I attest that you don't need that big of a government to make society orderly. Look at your local government, it makes thing orderly, you're local government provides a sheriff, and a fire department, even writes it's own laws to keep everything orderly and its government isn't big at all. "with the restraints of the government" that sounds to must like a police state. New Year's eve president Obama sign national defense authorization act section1031, which says that the military can be used to attack citizens of the US them indefinably without charge or trial, offshore. Sir, that is an eminence over stepping of personal liberty and trampling of the constitution by the federal government, and we fought it tooth and nail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Joey wrote:Libertarianism is an extreme right-wing ideology in every country outside of the USA. There's a reason it's shunned in polite society.


shunned from polite society, this coming from a continent that allows public nudity...ok,
I'd rather have a police-state, personel liberty is useless without the need of coming together as a collective group. There is no I in group. There should be I no I in Society. We are a group of people. What you are stating is a bill trying to protect people from terrorists and you are denying your country the basic protection it deserves from these groups.

 
   
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broodstar wrote:
shunned from polite society, this coming from a continent that allows public nudity...ok,

Public nudity is not socially acceptable in the UK. In fact a naked rambler got arrested recently.

Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION 
   
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The Warp

This topic is almost (pretty much) like flame baiting on a subject that is obviously controversial and will cause arguments, if you don't want people to think your insane or attract negative attention then don't post such things on DakkaDakka and find a forum that agrees with you. This isn't the place for such discussions and in all respects people will accuse you of trolling or flame baiting, get a mod to close the thread and concentrate on what matters.

Playing with toy soldiers.

That is all.


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Come up with a cogent argument that doesn't just attack your opponent but rather attacks the points he is making, and show some understanding of what those against the table are saying (it's not about 'Lol complaining about a random table in a game about dice'), or leave the damned thread.

"An infinite God ought to be able to protect himself, without going in partnership with State Legislatures. Certainly he ought not so to act that laws become necessary to keep him from being laughed at. No one thinks of protecting Shakespeare from ridicule, by the threat of fine and imprisonment."-- Robert Green Ingersoll 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





dogma wrote:

First, this doesn't address my point, which is that inner city schools fail because district based property taxes are limited to the property taxes in their district.

So, not only do you need form people potentially using your school system but, also people in other school systems. sounds insolvent to me.

Second, its not called "Harlem Success Academies" its called "Success Academy Charter". One assumes you focused on Harlem because you read some news article, and paid no more attention.

Umm yeah it is. I got others, there are charter allover this country that a wiping public schools butt.

Third, the SCN achieves good results, and uses methods that public schools should use, but no one wants to pay for them; or believes in their necessity (laptops, and tablets).

Well as a parent, there are to things you can do. One send your kid to public school where he will learn to take a nap. or send him to charters or private when he will actually learn something.

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Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

So public nudity is a bad thing whilst leaving people homeless and/or starving is fine.

In the name of freedom.

Gotcha.

I'm going to lock this now as this has not gone anywhere useful and doesn't look like it will either.

I would suggest putting a bit more thought into both your philosophy, posting style and chosen venue for your thoughts.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
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