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A word of advice....

Most 'competitive' players at grand tournaments cheat in one way or another, whether it's intentionally forgetting the rules or downright cheating. Here are some examples that I've personally witnessed....

An example of so called 'forgetting the rules' involves a guy (who I won't name here). He attempted to cheat in front of me 2010. He charged two units with blood crushers that were '15 apart and left a '12 gap between his models and pretended to be ignorant of the rules. I pointed it out to a judge who addressed the issue, but he has played enough 40k to know the rules. To attempt such shennanigans which merely play on the ignorance of his opponent should have landed him a disqualification.

Then there is blatant cheating, which is shown by Stelek in this video....

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/16872317

at 33 minutes in, his long fang pack leader dies, which means he will have to move to regain coherency and not be able to fire, he picks up a missile and blatantly moves it so he won't have to.

I had a chaos player at a GT who had modeled his demon princes so that they could stand behind a rhino and not be seen to get shot.

There will always be more subtle cheating that these examples, but one thing to remember is, if you're playing somebody at a GT with a reputation for 'winning', they often cheat in some small (or big) way. Keep yours eyes open!

Yay for trolling!

"I won't name him but here's the specific event he won which effectively means I am naming him"

So one example you've 'personally witnessed' and the other an internet video. Clearly, all GT winners are cheaters.

You know who I've seen "cheat" or "forget rules"? Less experienced players at GTs. You know what it's typically due to for everyone: brain farts and playing certain rules differently at one event or locale than another.

And the most common cheating I've seen? People who aren't actually cheating, but their opponent or a lookie-loo thinks they are because they themselves don't know the rules well enough, or are judging based on incomplete information from just seeing a snippit of one thing or another.

If only this were just a game...we wouldn't have to take it so seriously...

I edited it for ya!

Yay for trolling!

I've won a GT and played in the NOVA Invitational. I've been accused of cheating on fairly ridiculous grounds (I have a habit of absentmindedly picking up dice and dropping them during my opponent's turn, and one guy called be out saying I was cheating because it increases my chance of rolling higher numbers ), but I've certainly never cheated. It does annoy me though how a lot of people will think I'm going to cheat, and whenever I get a rule wrong or something talk to me like I was trying to pull something. Sorry, bud, but I don't have all 100 pages of the rules memorized. The guy in the video's move is blatant cheating, as for the other guy, I've played against him twice and I don't think he would try to pull anything as he doesn't seem like that kind of person, however I don't understand how you said he was cheating either...
Anyway, to sum things up:
I'm 14 and playing in a tournament = people think I'll try to cheat, even though I don't
Every model in my army is converted to a Nurgle theme = people think I'm modeling for advantage, even though I made sure everything is the right size and I'm doing it because: I think it looks cool, this is a hobby not a game, and because I don't have the money to buy the actual figures.
All of the above = I don't play in tournaments anymore aside from NOVA.

Edit: Removed name.

DarkCorsair wrote:I've won a GT and played in the NOVA Invitational. I've been accused of cheating on fairly ridiculous grounds (I have a habit of absentmindedly picking up dice and dropping them during my opponent's turn, and one guy called be out saying I was cheating because it increases my chance of rolling higher numbers ), but I've certainly never cheated. It does annoy me though how a lot of people will think I'm going to cheat, and whenever I get a rule wrong or something talk to me like I was trying to pull something. Sorry, bud, but I don't have all 100 pages of the rules memorized. Stelek's move is blatant cheating, as for the other guy, I've played against him twice and I don't think he would try to pull anything as he doesn't seem like that kind of person, however I don't understand how you said he was cheating either...
Anyway, to sum things up:
I'm 14 and playing in a tournament = people think I'll try to cheat, even though I don't
Every model in my army is converted to a Nurgle theme = people think I'm modeling for advantage, even though I made sure everything is the right size and I'm doing it because: I think it looks cool, this is a hobby not a game, and because I don't have the money to buy the actual figures.
All of the above = I don't play in tournaments anymore aside from NOVA.

Haters gonna hate!

Don't sweat it man, I've played at more than one event with you now, and you're what the hobby needs (imo) attending these events as the new-generation of wargamers. You play well, yet you still care about your modelling skills and having a good game. That's heads above some adults, let alone the average teenage attendant.

I'll see you at NOVA, but don't drop off the radar (at least for this reason, real life always trumps) of the other smaller regional GT's!

Everybody has been accused of cheating...

I was told after a game that I used 'cheaty' dice because the pips were worn and hard to see, but after every roll I made sure he saw what I rolled before I touched them.

This is not to say everybody cheats, by any means. This is just to let people who are thinking about attending their first GT that this stuff DOES happen, and a few examples of things to look out for.

The best way ultimately to prevent being cheated, is knowing the rules.

It's a fine line between "cheating" and making "honest" mistakes. I find that not everyone are rules gurus, even those in tournament play. People make mistakes all the time, even very good players sometimes. Tony Kopach, despite winning a few tournies, had been playing Njal wrong. I know I've made my share of mistakes in my very few tournament battles, like forgetting to roll for reserves at times or forgetting to cast Hammerhand at the proper sequence (I did ask my opponent if I could cast it before rolling to wound though). Unless the opponent was very obvious, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt, though I will correct him on mistakes that I catch, un-intentional or otherwise.

I'm not sure if cheating happens all the time quite like that. Also, sometimes people do play sloppier than they should (I have before, and am a multi-GT winner) and aren't doing it to cheat (usually happens to me if I'm tired or in too affable a game, which usually my games are). That doesn't make it acceptable, just ... not malicious either. It's a fault I know I work on, and I've been honest and corrective enough when it has happened that my motives have never been in question. It's a lesson to players who DO make mistakes (we ALL do) to be honest and humble in their occurrence.

As far as the video, while Stelek does indeed do some pretty silly stuff with his long fang pack leader, it is not a tournament game. It's a pick-up game prior to a tournament the next day.


The thing is, the cautionary tale does has some truth to it - holding people accountable for the way they play is important, and in an atmosphere where it's very hard to place a judge at every table (hell, we put one at every table at the Invitational for reasons like this), there's a responsibility on you the player to prevent it.

HOW you prevent it, and how you interpret the MOTIVE of those who are doing it, is where things get a little tricky. I think in a hobby where we are all peers and should endeavor for friendship across table (I know I always hope to befriend my opponent by game's end, even in tense ones), it's important not to apply motive to someone when you are calling them on mistakes or perceived rules discrepancies. Blatant cheating is one thing ... errors or rules fuzziness or sloppy play may be for any # of other reasons, so call it, call a judge if you have to, but give people the benefit of the doubt.

The tournament circuit could use better player, and kinder opponents ... always. It isn't impossible to have both. Honestly how you go about this stuff matters. At BFS this year, en route to winning Best Overall, I won a tense close one against Ragnar (Manna.) with some mistakes here and there that I had to tired correct (semi-final round), and he was always cordial about it ... and I lost a tense first game to Brad N. (whose username here I always forget) in Round 1. Both games were exciting for me, to be playing two excellent folks ... and in the end I never looked back on the games thinking about bad or tense moments ... instead I just hoped they knew how much I appreciated the opportunity to meet them, play with them, etc. As long as you take this outlook, I think not only will you not cheat ... but you'll work hard to accept the mistakes of others, and honestly correct your own. We all fall down on even these sometimes, but ... it's a far better message perhaps to convey to potential GT attendees, than to try and convey that cheating is rampant and all-occurring.

PS - I suggest an edit of the third paragraph ... if you're going to name the event at which someone won, and then say you aren't naming names ... you actually are naming names. Just don't name the event(s).

I'll say this: in my experience the smaller and more casual the setting, the more often I've encountered play, intetional or not, that's in violation of the rules.

Please remember that on Dakka Dakka we typically do not allow the naming of individuals that do not have the opportunity to join the discussion/defend themselves.

Thanks!

As far as the shenanigans with the long fang leader, I think that doing it in a 'friendly' pick up game is more egregious than doing it in a tournament?

It's a friendly pick up game, but you're still going to cheat?

Target wrote:

DarkCorsair wrote:I've won a GT and played in the NOVA Invitational. I've been accused of cheating on fairly ridiculous grounds (I have a habit of absentmindedly picking up dice and dropping them during my opponent's turn, and one guy called be out saying I was cheating because it increases my chance of rolling higher numbers ), but I've certainly never cheated. It does annoy me though how a lot of people will think I'm going to cheat, and whenever I get a rule wrong or something talk to me like I was trying to pull something. Sorry, bud, but I don't have all 100 pages of the rules memorized. Stelek's move is blatant cheating, as for the other guy, I've played against him twice and I don't think he would try to pull anything as he doesn't seem like that kind of person, however I don't understand how you said he was cheating either...
Anyway, to sum things up:
I'm 14 and playing in a tournament = people think I'll try to cheat, even though I don't
Every model in my army is converted to a Nurgle theme = people think I'm modeling for advantage, even though I made sure everything is the right size and I'm doing it because: I think it looks cool, this is a hobby not a game, and because I don't have the money to buy the actual figures.
All of the above = I don't play in tournaments anymore aside from NOVA.

Haters gonna hate!

Don't sweat it man, I've played at more than one event with you now, and you're what the hobby needs (imo) attending these events as the new-generation of wargamers. You play well, yet you still care about your modelling skills and having a good game. That's heads above some adults, let alone the average teenage attendant.

I'll see you at NOVA, but don't drop off the radar (at least for this reason, real life always trumps) of the other smaller regional GT's!

Thanks! That's certainly not the only reason for my dropped attendance of tournaments, mostly it's the distance and the cost of the events; to attend those, I have to save up for a quite a few months and then that means I have no money for anything else, and I've been more involved in other things that require money (guitar gear, soccer, dating, and most importantly downloading music ). I figured it would be better to slowly build up an army, make it the best I can, and then show it off at NOVA.

I don't see a point of this thread other than to slag off people at tournaments.

Had to unlock this for a minute for two quick items.

MVBrandt wrote:As far as the video, while Stelek does indeed do some pretty silly stuff with his long fang pack leader, it is not a tournament game. It's a pick-up game prior to a tournament the next day.

A quick additional note about this one. If you pay close attention and listen to the video, Stelek informs his opponent of what he's doing and the opponent okays it. Stelek basically says "I would normally always deploy the pack leader on the edge of the formation so him dying doesn't break coherency; I got sloppy with my deployment because it's a casual game and I was hurrying; is it okay if I swap the models?" And the opponent okayed it. If it were a game which counted during the tournament I doubt he would have pulled that one, and likewise the opponent most likely would not have permitted it.

MVBrandt wrote:The tournament circuit could use better player, and kinder opponents ... always. It isn't impossible to have both. Honestly how you go about this stuff matters. At BFS this year, en route to winning Best Overall, I won a tense close one against Ragnar (Manna.) with some mistakes here and there that I had to tired correct (semi-final round), and he was always cordial about it ... and I lost a tense first game to Brad N. (whose username here I always forget) in Round 1. Both games were exciting for me, to be playing two excellent folks ... and in the end I never looked back on the games thinking about bad or tense moments ... instead I just hoped they knew how much I appreciated the opportunity to meet them, play with them, etc. As long as you take this outlook, I think not only will you not cheat ... but you'll work hard to accept the mistakes of others, and honestly correct your own. We all fall down on even these sometimes, but ... it's a far better message perhaps to convey to potential GT attendees, than to try and convey that cheating is rampant and all-occurring.

I just wanted to applaud pretty much everything Mike wrote here, and reciprocate the appreciation for what was a great game. Our match at BFS did get a bit tense and competitive, and while I made the effort to keep it cordial and sportsmanlike, I recognize that (in part due to being tired from a long weekend of gaming and long drives back and forth to and from the venue) my own degree of friendliness and understanding wasn't at its peak. That being said there was never a moment of doubt that we were both honestly and honorably participating in the game and any rules errors were honest mistakes.

I concur entirely with the general consensus of the thread. Everyone makes mistakes, even those of us who think we know the rules really well, and guys who have their own websites devoted to their expertise at the game. But in the vast majority of cases, errors are honest mistakes, not deliberate attempts to cheat. We should still hold ourselves and each other strictly accountable to the rules, but we shouldn't automatically assume the worst in each other's motives, or jump to the conclusion that someone was cheating when we may be missing important details (like Stelek's opponent consenting to the model swap).