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replace it with 'suffers a wound with no armour save'.

No. Magic Weapons like Blade of Realities will be horribly nerfed, and we something that could 1 hit kill monsters.
However...I suppose it could just inflict 2d6 wounds instead.

At the very least I would change it to something along the lines of "suffers a number of wounds equal to its maximum wounds, with no armor saves allowed."

Removed from Play is an ok thing to have, however certain things that have Remove from Play shouldn't have it.

Notably 6th spells.



Purple Sun, Dwellers, and Pit of Shades need to be changed to be "If the test is failed, the model must take an Invuln or Regen save. If the save is failed then the model is removed from play"

Removed from play doesn't need to be removed from game. It's just the 3 big spells (purple sun, dwellers and pit of shades) shouldn't remove from play. They should do something more like Multiple Wounds D6 and no armor save.
That way, characters have a better shot at surviving the unit killing spells, and things like ogres don't get hit quite as hard.
I've got not problem with other remove from play effects, as they are far less common.
-Matt

streamdragon wrote:At the very least I would change it to something along the lines of "suffers a number of wounds equal to its maximum wounds, with no armor saves allowed."

I really like Daemons, but while people are trying to protect their Heroes/Lords with ward saves, if you made ^ change DoC will be smashing faces with hordes of...everything.

You're trying to protect Lords, then protect lords. They are all under their own section, make a new Eternal Warrior rule (40K) where everything....I don't know, above 250pts or above 5T or a Hero/Lord is immune. But don't use Ward. Those are everywhere.

Well daemons just have 5+ wards and are expensive. I think its ok for them to have a better chance of surviving the uber spells.

They really aren't that expensive. I think you can call their Core semi-elite.

Saurus Warriors cost 11. Bloodletters cost 12. They did not mean for Ward saves to be (IMHO) indestructible. It's just a slightly different flavor. Like Ogres got Wounds and Dwarfs got armor and Skaven got nothing. But it would make the low-end Daemons much nastier.

Big blocks of ward 4+ Horrors you simply couldn't kill in any way. No, they aren't uber, but they're still magic/flaming and can cast spells(!).

Yeah, but if you are trying to kill Horrors with spells I think your doing it wrong.

Horrors die in combat and really only have the ward save to keep from going poof.

I really don't get this fear you have over Daemons if suddenly their ward worked against more spells. Armies don't go from being decent to being unbeatable because they can use a 5+ ward save against three or four more spells.

i think what they are saying is... deamons dont need ANOTHER buff, I do agree that the super spells shouldnt remove from play though, just got d6/d3 wounds no saves of any kind, gives you a chance to live

I have no problem with the removes from play, matches fluff similar to the ground swallowing up whole regiments and sigmar's blessing allowing a wizard to slay a giant with one spell etc.

It's not just Daemons, it's anyone with a ward.

Every Orc will have huge warpaint blocks, which were normally about on par with regular Orcs but now will have vastly less fear from 6th lvls. Same with HE Phoenix Guard. Or whatever.

6th lvl spells are one of the big complaints/fears about 8th. Along with Steadfast and mass infantry blocks. If you can all of a sudden make the 2nd without as much fear of the first (which is its direct counter) I think you just broke a key element of 8th.

DukeRustfield wrote:It's not just Daemons, it's anyone with a ward.

Every Orc will have huge warpaint blocks, which were normally about on par with regular Orcs but now will have vastly less fear from 6th lvls. Same with HE Phoenix Guard. Or whatever.

6th lvl spells are one of the big complaints/fears about 8th. Along with Steadfast and mass infantry blocks. If you can all of a sudden make the 2nd without as much fear of the first (which is its direct counter) I think you just broke a key element of 8th.

But in most cases you're talking about 6+ wards, and in some cases you're talking about 5+, very rarely are we looking at 4+ wards.

Consider Pit of Shades on a warpaint horde of orks. Instead of of sucking down 2/3 of the models affected it sucks down 5/9. Oh no, the overpowering dominance of massed infantry blocks is complete. How will we cope with making some hordes 1/6 more resilient against spells?

Phoenix Guards are a whopping 4+. Horrors are 4+. Every other Daemon is 5+. Savage Orcs can get up to a 5+ with an item and a 4+ with item + special character. I don't know all the rest off hand, but I'm sure there's some.

They would save a lot more than that. Pit being a bad example I think.

I just don't think Ward was meant to be such a global counter. It's "just" a save. A good one. But I don't think 1+ armor should be useless compared to a 6+ ward against the most powerful spells--or any other type of defense, such as Regen or Toughness or Wounds. They are just different flavors in the WHFB world.

PG don't need to be delt with by Pit of Shades or Purple sun anyway. I don't think they are that much of a threat to anyone to warrent said spell.

They probably have BotWD anyway.

Horrors are the same thing, your doing it wrong if you are using a big Pit or Purple Sun to kill them. Even Dwellers is simply overkill.



The units that these spells get used against are ones without ward saves. Like Slave tarpits or huge Halberdier hordes.

The elite units with Ward saves or multi-wound models are the ones that really get screwed by these spells which were doubtlessly created to counter steadfast blocks of horribly cheap and weak troops.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:I have no problem with the removes from play, matches fluff similar to the ground swallowing up whole regiments and sigmar's blessing allowing a wizard to slay a giant with one spell etc.

Sigmar hates wizards. He's not likely to bless a wizard.

-Matt

DukeRustfield wrote:Phoenix Guards are a whopping 4+. Horrors are 4+. Every other Daemon is 5+. Savage Orcs can get up to a 5+ with an item and a 4+ with item + special character. I don't know all the rest off hand, but I'm sure there's some.

And look at the type of troops that get them, and what they cost and what their defences are otherwise. It's not exactly letting cheap, horde troops overwhelm the world.

And as I said to you in the other thread that ended up being about this same issue, there is a problem with characters or other single price purchases extending a bonus to a whole unit regardless of how many troops are in the unit. That's a problem that tends to encourage super units and something that needs to be solved, whether or not there are ward saves for the super spells.

I just don't think Ward was meant to be such a global counter. It's "just" a save. A good one. But I don't think 1+ armor should be useless compared to a 6+ ward against the most powerful spells--or any other type of defense, such as Regen or Toughness or Wounds. They are just different flavors in the WHFB world.

Yeah, imagine if units with otherworldly forms of protection were somehow more capable of resisting powerful spells than troops lacking otherworldly forms of protection. It'd be madness.

PG don't need to be delt with by Pit of Shades or Purple sun anyway. I don't think they are that much of a threat to anyone to warrent said spell.

People will start taking blocks of units that are suddenly worth more than they were previously. Right now it's "just" a defense. It will then become an anvil that can shrug off any uber spell at the worst with 50% certainty. Which is 50% more than anyone else...


Ward saves are dodges on Assassins. They are lucky charms on Orcs and goblins. They are whatever fluff you want them to be. Pendants. Enchanted underwear. There is nothing inherently godlike or otherwordly about them.

A 1+ armor save is like being encased in gromril armor with the most fantastic runes possible, which took an army of Runepriests and armorers centuries to construct. But a in this rule a lucky tooth trumps it. Trolls being able to completely regenerate from just their face, with everything else destroyed, is also inferior. 30 foot giants, who are so gdamn powerful that every (evil) army on the planet allows them to join, from Beastmen to WoC to Ogres to Orcs to Chaos Dwarfs, are nothing compared to the awesome defense of a lucky tooth.

More than that, I think the issue here is Heroes/Lords. I can't remember if I'm repeating myself or not, but give them protection. Uber spells are direct counters to massed units. They buffed massed units and made a counter to it. If you want to take the risk of putting 20 mournfangs in one unit (in your 30,000pt game) then you should recognize they might get poofed. The caster might also miscast throwing so much dice.

the PG ward save is the power of Asurmen protecting them.

<text redacted; if you can't post without recourse to offensive language, your ability to post at all is in jeopardy --Janthkin>

'Removed from play' and 'steadfast' ruined this edition of fantasy.

DukeRustfield wrote:Ward saves are dodges on Assassins. They are lucky charms on Orcs and goblins. They are whatever fluff you want them to be. Pendants. Enchanted underwear. There is nothing inherently godlike or otherwordly about them.

So it's a dodge for a couple of options, otherwise it's a magical save. So really, I'll just repeat my point that magical protection would, sensibly, do very well at providing magical protection.

If this is really, really a problem, you can FAQ it so that the extremely rare non-magical ward saves, like dodges, do not work, in much the same way a parry saves are already excluded in certain circumstances.

A 1+ armor save is like being encased in gromril armor with the most fantastic runes possible, which took an army of Runepriests and armorers centuries to construct.

It's heavy plate and sitting on a horse. And it is direct physical protection, nothing more. As such, it makes perfect sense that certain magical attacks would bypass it entirely. That same logic absolutely 100% does not apply to magical defences.

30 foot giants, who are so gdamn powerful that every (evil) army on the planet allows them to join, from Beastmen to WoC to Ogres to Orcs to Chaos Dwarfs, are nothing compared to the awesome defense of a lucky tooth.

Yes, physical size does not provide a defence against certain very powerful magics, while a magically infused defence would. Welcome to the basic assumption of almost every fantasy product, either literature or game, that's ever been released.

I mean seriously, are you not getting this?

I "get it" fine. Except that wards are not magical. Wards are a game mechanic. Which is what you guys don't seem to get. You're proposing a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (i.e., ANY unit in the game with a ward getting wooshed) based on fluff that also doesn't exist, since wards can be anything.

Again, what problem are you trying to solve? Is the problem that Daemons are getting wiped out by lvl 6 spells? I can't imagine it. If you're trying to save Heroes/Lords then do so by targetting them, don't cast the net wider.

I agree that the intention of the spells appear to be the removal or crippling of large blocks of infantry (regular or monstrous), and they simply overstepped the power line with the first few "big" spells of this edition.

When you look at the spells that are coming out for the race-specific lores (Bad Moon, Skullstorm, Maw), you can see that that's what they were aiming for, either characteristic tests or simply strength X hits, but only ever doing a single wound.

I personally think it'd be enough to make all these big spells do exactly that, you take a wound with no saves allowed. Means you don't get OHKO on your characters, but it's just as effective against hordes as it always was. Unless you're playing Ogres.

If you still allow ward saves to be taken against these spells then you'll probably see an increase in the use of MR when it applies to certain units. 3+ WS Chosen with a character with at least MR1 would give the entire unit a 2+ WS against the spells. Spells specifically designed to kill off units like this. I say that each model that fails the Characteristic test takes D3 wounds with no saves at all. Lord characters would have a 2/3 chance of surviving if they fail the roll and hero characters would have a 1/3 chance in surviving if they fail the roll. Ogres would take heavy damage but it wouldn't wipe the unit.

I think Ogres and other multi-wound rank-and-files were meant to be insta-killed like anyone else. Before you throw rotten fruit at me, consider this: MI and MC have the rule that allows them to have fewer ranks to create Steadfast and Horde to begin with. That allows those troop types the ability to field a decent Steadfast at a "somewhat" reasonable cost.

But the point is, if a lvl 6 spell comes down, should a block of 500 pts of Ogres have better chance of living than 500 pts of Daemons or 500 pts of TK Skeletons? It seems to me 500 is 500 and it's the mega-block itself that needs a counter.

What's happening, however, is some spells, like purple sun and pit of shades, are template-based. And it's easier to get more MI/MC under them.

What if they all went straight up like Final Transmutation and it was just a straight 5+ to poof (ignoring the multi-wound comment). It would even buff monsters a bit, because you're only going to get one shot at it, but at least you're likely to take out some infantry in a unit, if, that's what lvl 6's were designed for.

DukeRustfield wrote:I "get it" fine. Except that wards are not magical. Wards are a game mechanic. Which is what you guys don't seem to get.

You're playing a silly game in which the existance of one outlier excludes something being considered generally one thing. That is, the existance of a handful of dodge ward saves doesn't mean that they are almost all magical in nature.

It's even sillier when I already pointed out that you can FAQ such a save to not apply in certain instances, ie you could state dodge ward saves cannot be taken against these spells, if you so want.

You're proposing a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (i.e., ANY unit in the game with a ward getting wooshed) based on fluff that also doesn't exist, since wards can be anything.

I believe it is silly that units with a form of magical protection would not be able to use that magical protection against a lot of spells.

Again, what problem are you trying to solve?

The problem that units with magical protection are as vulnerable to many commonly used spells as units without magical protection.

Which is something you would have to have understood by now if you're were even half attempting to debate this in good faith. I mean, I've already explained that several times;
"Yeah, imagine if units with otherworldly forms of protection were somehow more capable of resisting powerful spells than troops lacking otherworldly forms of protection. It'd be madness."
"So really, I'll just repeat my point that magical protection would, sensibly, do very well at providing magical protection."
"Yes, physical size does not provide a defence against certain very powerful magics, while a magically infused defence would."

Seriously, how did my main point escape you?

sebster wrote:

Again, what problem are you trying to solve?

The problem that units with magical protection are as vulnerable to many commonly used spells as units without magical protection.

You're still making a fluff debate in a games rule section. ^ that answer is perfectly fine in General Discussion. Or as a corollary to a legit numerical debate here.

Forget I said anything about Ward saves. What they are, where they come from. They are just a game mechanic. Take the word "magic" out of it. It is completely 100% irrelevant.

What makes the owners of them, and listen carefully, FROM A BALANCE PERSPECTIVE, entitled to shrug off spells that other units with different game mechanics cannot? If you say it's because they're magic pink ponies, I'm sorry, but that's not a balance answer.

You're saying you're not concerned about Heroes/Lords and Special Character (most of whom don't have a ward and can't get one) from getting wooshed away with no save as you are about Savage Orcs getting killed en masse? So Skrag the Slaughterer, Prophet of the Great Maw, 425 pt character, lvl 4 Shaman after he gets full Regen, has no extra chance to save vs a lvl 6 but an 8 pt Savage Orc should? That's your concern?

No, I don't get that from a balance perspective. I don't feel wards need buffing in and of themselves.

I think it is in mostly to things like Magic Resistance- a save that specifially is supposed to work on magic, but not normal attacks, like how Armour works on normal attacks but not Magical (armour ignoring Magic, that is) attacks.

Essentially, Remove From Play on a single dice roll, For Everyone, is unfortunate and unfair when it comes to hundred+ point models as opposed to units. Perhaps if IF wasn't around, it wouldn't be as bad, since you'd always be able to attempt to dispel all the big spells, but the enemy rolls those 2 's, and over half the time you loose something important with NO chance to defend.

I posted a way to help characters survive these spells in this thread:


Proposed Modification to Instant Death Spells

Basically the proposal goes like this:

For instant death spells (like dwellers, purple sun, etc.) that are based on failed characteristic tests:

give a model a number of characteristic tests equal to it's current number of wounds. Each failed test inflicts one wound with no save. A multi wound model would need to fail multiple tests to be instantly killed.

For example:

A Strength 3 wizard, with 3 wounds, is hit by dwellers below.

The wizard would roll 3 dice. Each roll of 4+ would cause a wound. If the wizard fails all 3 tests then he dies. Otherwise he just takes some wounds.