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Made in us
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Mindstrike missiles affect psykers, Grey knight vehicles are treated as psykers due to psychic pilot so it seems getting hit with a mindstrike missile would cause an automatic glancing hit. However Crucible of Malediction, the DE wargear does not affect grey knight vehicles, so the question rises. Do Grey knight vehicles have to take a glancing hit from the perils induced by a mind strike missile?

   
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No, they are only psykers for the purposes listed in the codex. They can never be psykers during your shooting phase.


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As above, they are only psykers when they cast Fortitude(or when a Dreadnought activates his Doomfist)

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




As above.

If you add a "comma" to the sentence, then they would indeed be psykers all the time. The lack of the comma denotes that it is only a psyker for the purpose of making psychic checks and psychic hoods - nothing else.
   
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I just looked this up... 'they are psykers and count as ld 10 when making psychic checks'

How does the lack of a comma change them from being psykers?
   
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DevianID wrote:I just looked this up... 'they are psykers and count as ld 10 when making psychic checks'

How does the lack of a comma change them from being psykers?


That's not the quote. The rules actually say:

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'


So that technically reads that they are only psykers and Leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods. If there was a comma after the word 'psyker' in that sentence then they would always be treated as psykers and only Ld10 for psychic tests & hoods.

But without that comma it means they only count as being psykers for those two things...although one could definitely argue that if you read the rule that way they are unable to use a psychic power as only psykers are able to use psychic powers and they aren't a psyker except in those two specific cases.


I did bring that point up when this was being voted on for the INAT, but the overwhelming sentiment was that they weren't supposed to count as pyskers in other circumstances. Personally I think that opens up a whole lot of crazy loopholes in the rules, but whatever...






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Remembering of course that in British (and Australian) English the comma after and is always optional and does on occasion lead to ambiguities such as this.

I don't really follow along with being a psyker in one instance and not being a psyker in another you either are, or you aren't you can't have your cake and eat it too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/09 02:49:07


 
   
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Actually grammactically you can separate these into two separate parts.

The and combines two separate similar ideas but does not fully combine them. The vehicle is a psyker. The vehicle has leadership 10 for psychic tests.

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The sentance is constructed as a list of things that apply together, they cannot be seperated.

As this is a legal document(its a set of rules) you cannot add anything beyond what is contained in the sentance.


The Parantheses containing "Mastery Level 1" don't constitute a sentance break.

I will also apply Occums Razor here. The "Psykers only for psychic test purposes" is the simplest interperation and causes the fewest problems. Otherwise we have the Crucible of Maladiction become so unbelievably overpowered.


As anecdotal evidence we also have the BA Furioso Dreadnought whose rules quite clearly differ on this, saying that it is a Ld10 psyker for ALL purposes not just Psychic Tests. Psychic Pilot is clearly worded differently, we must assume it was on purpose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/09 06:00:21


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Yes, I play GKs. "Cheese" you say? Take a look at this Terminator, notice he's pewter. Now notice the weight as I termi-sock you. *WACK* NOW!!! I been Playing GKs since their Force Weapons bypassed EW, everyone was WS5, Stormshields ONLY worked in CC, and Justicars cost 50 fricking points each!!! Don't you accuse me of Cheese! I waited for this Cheese and if i am not going to use it against you. Why I aught to shove it in the heater grates and turn the Thermostat up to 70 degrees. CELSIUS! TAKE THAT

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Magpie wrote:Remembering of course that in British (and Australian) English the comma after and is always optional and does on occasion lead to ambiguities such as this.

I don't really follow along with being a psyker in one instance and not being a psyker in another you either are, or you aren't you can't have your cake and eat it too.


Its to stop you parking 9 razorbacks next to an assassin, each with a psyker inside, to make you an assault 20 ap2 weapon

The entire GK book was written to explicitly reduce the "number" of psykers present, while allowing GK units to function how people want them to. BoP tells you this. Psykers special rules tells you this. Psychic Pilot tells you this. Why did they bother writing the rules so explicitly to restrict the "psyker"-ness of a vehicle, when they could have simply written "psyker (mastery level 1), counts as ld 10"?
   
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Magpie wrote:Remembering of course that in British (and Australian) English the comma after and is always optional and does on occasion lead to ambiguities such as this.

I don't really follow along with being a psyker in one instance and not being a psyker in another you either are, or you aren't you can't have your cake and eat it too.


Its to stop you parking 9 razorbacks next to an assassin, each with a psyker inside, to make you an assault 20 ap2 weapon

The entire GK book was written to explicitly reduce the "number" of psykers present, while allowing GK units to function how people want them to. BoP tells you this. Psykers special rules tells you this. Psychic Pilot tells you this. Why did they bother writing the rules so explicitly to restrict the "psyker"-ness of a vehicle, when they could have simply written "psyker (mastery level 1), counts as ld 10"?

That's viewing it from the positive side. I think Mat Ward rather made sure that anti-psyker abilities would have limited or no effect on Grey Knights. So they get all the benefits from being psykers with little of the disadvantages.

It makes sense in the case of vehicles though, because vehicles were never meant to be psykers in the first place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/09 17:49:36


 
   
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Grey Templar wrote:The sentance is constructed as a list of things that apply together, they cannot be seperated.

As this is a legal document(its a set of rules) you cannot add anything beyond what is contained in the sentance.


The Parantheses containing "Mastery Level 1" don't constitute a sentance break.

I will also apply Occums Razor here. The "Psykers only for psychic test purposes" is the simplest interperation and causes the fewest problems. Otherwise we have the Crucible of Maladiction become so unbelievably overpowered.


As anecdotal evidence we also have the BA Furioso Dreadnought whose rules quite clearly differ on this, saying that it is a Ld10 psyker for ALL purposes not just Psychic Tests. Psychic Pilot is clearly worded differently, we must assume it was on purpose.


I disagree. The simplest form is that the vehicle is a psyker. As you add conditions onto it you complicate the matter. The issue with a. Vehicle being a psyker requires you to specify a leadership value for the cases when the psyker requires a leadership value which vehicles do not possess naturally. Thus a vehicle does not gain a leadership value all the time but only when required for being a psyker.

The rest of the time a psyker does not need the leadership value because it is a vehicle. This clarifies the additional requirements of being a psyker rather than limiting when a vwhicle is indicated as a psyker.

The parenthesis do not indicate the sentence break - the and does.

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And is also used to denote the last item in a list, which is what the case with this sentance is.

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Yes, I play GKs. "Cheese" you say? Take a look at this Terminator, notice he's pewter. Now notice the weight as I termi-sock you. *WACK* NOW!!! I been Playing GKs since their Force Weapons bypassed EW, everyone was WS5, Stormshields ONLY worked in CC, and Justicars cost 50 fricking points each!!! Don't you accuse me of Cheese! I waited for this Cheese and if i am not going to use it against you. Why I aught to shove it in the heater grates and turn the Thermostat up to 70 degrees. CELSIUS! TAKE THAT

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I can actually agree that both positions are valid.

A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.


We have a vehicle.
This vehicle has a special rule called psychic pilot.
This vehicle is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1).
This vehicle is treated as being leadership 10 for the purpose of Psychic Tests
This vehicle is treated as being leadership 10 for the purpose of psychic hoods.

The argument centers around the predicate "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods". Does this apply to the second part of the sentence or all of the sentence?

Psykers for the purpose of psychic tests and psychic hoods is not the simplest form. You basically create something that is one thing half the time and something else other times rather than always being the same thing.

Vehicles generally do not have leadership. "For the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" limits having a leadership value rather than being a psyker.

If the rule was suppose to limit being a pysker only for psychic tests and psychic hoods then the rule would have the limitation after psyker rather than after the leadership value as seen below:

A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

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Lets look at it this way.

Here is a similerly constructed sentance.


I am 21 and a US citizen for all legal and practical purposes.

Does Legal and Practical Purposes apply to both parts? I think it most certaintly does.

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Yes, I play GKs. "Cheese" you say? Take a look at this Terminator, notice he's pewter. Now notice the weight as I termi-sock you. *WACK* NOW!!! I been Playing GKs since their Force Weapons bypassed EW, everyone was WS5, Stormshields ONLY worked in CC, and Justicars cost 50 fricking points each!!! Don't you accuse me of Cheese! I waited for this Cheese and if i am not going to use it against you. Why I aught to shove it in the heater grates and turn the Thermostat up to 70 degrees. CELSIUS! TAKE THAT

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Yup. To break it down into independent parts I think you need some separating punctuation.

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Here is another similar sentence:

I am tired and a us citizen for all legal and practical purposes.

The second part does not make any sense when combined with the first part. It can be deconstructed either way though because it is ambiguous sentence structure.

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Unfortunately the codex writing can be read both ways with none of them being wrong so I have to say that until it get's a Faq you'll just need to talk it with your opponent

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rogueeyes wrote:Here is another similar sentence:

I am tired and a us citizen for all legal and practical purposes.

The second part does not make any sense when combined with the first part. It can be deconstructed either way though because it is ambiguous sentence structure.


Unfortunantly it doesn't make sense, however the GK codex sentance does make sense when put together.

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Yes, I play GKs. "Cheese" you say? Take a look at this Terminator, notice he's pewter. Now notice the weight as I termi-sock you. *WACK* NOW!!! I been Playing GKs since their Force Weapons bypassed EW, everyone was WS5, Stormshields ONLY worked in CC, and Justicars cost 50 fricking points each!!! Don't you accuse me of Cheese! I waited for this Cheese and if i am not going to use it against you. Why I aught to shove it in the heater grates and turn the Thermostat up to 70 degrees. CELSIUS! TAKE THAT

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Space Wolf army.  
   
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Madrid

Grey Templar wrote:
rogueeyes wrote:Here is another similar sentence:

I am tired and a us citizen for all legal and practical purposes.

The second part does not make any sense when combined with the first part. It can be deconstructed either way though because it is ambiguous sentence structure.


Unfortunantly it doesn't make sense, however the GK codex sentance does make sense when put together.


As it also makes sense read the other way, and there is no correct way of interpreting it.

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It only makes sense the other way if you add a comma in.

There isnt a comma, so it cannot be read the other way.
   
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Madrid

nosferatu1001 wrote:It only makes sense the other way if you add a comma in.

There isnt a comma, so it cannot be read the other way.



The "and" can also act as a introduction of another condition to the rules, eg.

It counts as a Psyker blablabla AND it's Ld is "X" for "Y" circumstances.

So it could well mean that it is always a psyker but it only has LD for "Y" circumstances, so it does make sense, is it RAI? I don't have a clue but...I'm not the author..

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Even if the grammar doesn't convince you, the rules work a lot better and you avoid opening a big can of worms if you play that it's only a psyker for the specified purposes. That way you avoid having the Culexus with a jillion shots, and you avoid having to figure out how to handle every piece of psychic and anti-psychic wargear in the game in respect to GK vehicles.

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Mannahnin wrote:Even if the grammar doesn't convince you, the rules work a lot better and you avoid opening a big can of worms if you play that it's only a psyker for the specified purposes. That way you avoid having the Culexus with a jillion shots, and you avoid having to figure out how to handle every piece of psychic and anti-psychic wargear in the game in respect to GK vehicles.


I've agreed with that all the way I just made it clear that the rule is loosely written, I would have said: "For the purpose of "X" and "Y" it is treated as a psyker (Mastery Level 1) and LD 10 for tests

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Even if the grammar doesn't convince you, the rules work a lot better and you avoid opening a big can of worms if you play that it's only a psyker for the specified purposes


Lets be honest here, there is zero Worms, and if there is a Can it has a resealable plastic lid--its not even child locked.

If my vehicle is a psyker, what issues would we possibly have? Mind strike missiles cause glances, big deal--we already know how a glance interacts with a vehicle. The crucible of malediction may kill a tank or two, maybe as much as 9 if you really go out of your way to make a circle around the CoM and fail a bunch of LD checks. As we all know, removing a vehicle from the table is not such a hard thing to do, we do it every time we explode one. Draigo would be s10--ask possessed vehicles if this causes an unresolvable situation that breaks the game.

As for the Culexus assassian, if you really want to get a ton of shots you already can. I have played versus grey knights quite a bit, and the Culexus with 20 shots if and only if you center your entire army around it is a laughable novelty. Strike squads get 20 s5 shots already, for less than the cost of using your entire armies transport capacity in one place, and you dont even see strikes in that config often despite the total entry cost being 220 as opposed to 500 the proposed culexus with rhino spam would be.

Plus, if you follow the logic that vehicles can not be psykers because a single piece of anti psyker wargear would then be useful--the crucible, that would mean that warp quake is clearly being played wrong because it can table a daemon army without even trying. Face it, some things in the game are unbelievably good at killing niche unit types like daemons, deep strikers, or psykers.

So yeah, suspected balance issues with a vehicle that is a psyker is not a valid defense of this rule.

Really the grammar is what matters. The proposed reading of the sentence "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods" makes no sense. Counting as a psyker does nothing for psychic hoods, psychic hoods work on models (as opposed to psykers) that use a power.

In addition, as pointed out, this reading of the rule does not make the vehicle a psyker for the purpose of psychic powers, only psychic tests. "A psyker can use one psychic power per turn." According to the reading proposed above, the vehicle would only be defined as a psyker for psychic tests--so you cant use your powers.

Thus, if you read it such that the vehicle is a psyker, then it is a psyker all the time and its powers work.

If you try and use the grammar to claim that it is NOT a psyker all the time, then the same grammar structure optionally chosen to be used also prevents the vehicle from using a psychic power.

Obviously, we must use the grammar that allows the vehicle to use its power right? We are not advocating that Fortitude can not and should not ever be allowed to be cast due to differing grammatical readings of the rules sentence are we?
   
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A psychic test is how you use a psychic power.

It is not a psyker at all times - it is a psyker only for very limited reasons.
   
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DevianID wrote: The crucible of malediction may kill a tank or two, maybe as much as 9 if you really go out of your way to make a circle around the CoM and fail a bunch of LD checks.

Except that if you read the rule that the Vehicle is a Psyker at all times, but only has Leadership 10 for Psychihc Tests and Psychic Hoods, it wouldn't have any Leadership value to take the Crucible of Malediction test with. As models called to make a statistics test, but without the actual statistic to test on automatically fail the test, the CoM would auto-remove any GK vehicle within range.

How is a cheap piece of wargear removing any vehicles (and any units transported by them) without any kind of save that not a can of worms?


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Just because there is a piece of wargear in a different book somewhere that makes it possible to remove a model from the board does not influence how a rule should be read.

Being a psyker does not require you to have a leadership value. A psychic test does require you to have a leadership value as does a psychic hood. There is a requirment of a leadership value that is clarified by stating that the vehicle is lesdership 10 for psychic tests ans pyshic hoods. Nothing precludes a vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

If I state my rhino is a psyker without stating anything else I have no problem. If I state my rhino is using a psychic I am required to make a psychic test that is a leadership test. Now I am required to have a leadership value. Luckily the rule takes this into account and gives me a leadership 10 value for psychic powers and psychic hoods which I need a value for otherwise they would not be useable.

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rogueeyes wrote:<Snip>Nothing precludes a vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

The Psychic pilot rule precludes the vehicle from being a Psyker at all times.

There is no punctuation separating the two clauses of that one sentence.

So the vehicle is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10

But only for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/13 17:13:57


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