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Somewhat inspired by the GK thread.

Short and to the point: I'm curious as to how BL fiction has treated the Sisters of Battle given their losing streak in GW fluff.

So aside from James Swallow's books (Hammer and Anvil, Faith and Fire) and the Red and the Black Audio drama - where else do people recall seeing a SoB ?

I read a little bit about them in the short story about the Flesh Tearers in the Heroes of the Space Marines book.

IIRC there is a graphic novel/comic featuring a sororitas called Daemonifuge.

Aye, Daemonifuge. It's not bad, either.

You can see a classic Sororitas army in "Grey Knights" ... and they win in the end! Personally I like this novel very much.

They have been in some of the Cain novels, in which he states hes negative opinion of them as he finds them too fanatical, however in the 6th book he haves a very good opinion of a senior sister that is also his colleague in the schola progenium. In that same book a number of sisters were also corrupted by the powers of chaos leader who was a follower of Slaanesh.
There is also one IG novel called "Redemption Corps" that i haven't red but i know that a regiment of elite storm troopers are sent to deal with the orks but when the SoB arrive they are again presented as yet another danger because of them being all over zealous and what not, again am not sure about this one as I have not red it.

Hmm - 1 win and 2 presentations as Minor Antagonists..

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Hmm - 1 win and 2 presentations as Minor Antagonists..

I wouldn't exactly call the antagonists, because they are depicted more in way that depicts them as an unknown element, for instance:

They are displayed as easily influenced, and as Cain says

Worst showings were Henry Zou (in Flesh and Iron) and Rob Sanders (REdemption Corps and Atlas infernal.) They show up in Legion of the Damned but Sanders actually seems to be treating them far better than they usually are treated. Aside from LotD they're basically written sa being jerks and total puppets of the Ecclesiarchy, although in LotD they're called upon to enact retribuion for violation of the Decree Passive.

There's also the Sisters on Armageddon in 'Helsreach', there's the Sororitas in 'Crossfire' (multiple appearances, even saving Caplurnia's butt from an assasination device.), a sister (or former one) in nightbringer, some in DAwn of War: Ascension (which wasn't a horrible novel all told.)

The only 'Sororitas-primary' books are James Swallow's novels which are fairly bad, but tends to portray them (generally) as far more sanctimonious than I imagine them to be. There was also the LEt the Galaxy Burn short Story featuring Sister Aescarion which was the best total. Aescarion also makes a return appearance in two Soul Drinkers novels (bleeding Chalice and Phalanx) which is perhaps one of the few consistently good things bout the books (although Aescarion being used to make Sarps look good in Phalanx was annoying.)

The Cain novels tend to vary. In several they aren't exactly good guys (but then again few priests, AdMch or non-IG are from Cain's POV so prejudice can be considered to be in effect here) but in 'Cain's Last Stand' we get (for him') a more 'heroic' soroitas type. I personally liked that one, although I know a number of people did not. *shrugs*

This is the most popular/significant BL book that stars the SoB If I recall:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Faith-Sisters-Battle-James-Swallow/dp/1844162893

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:So aside from James Swallow's books (Hammer and Anvil, Faith and Fire) and the Red and the Black Audio drama - where else do people recall seeing a SoB ?

Harriticus wrote:This is the most popular/significant BL book that stars the SoB If I recall:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Faith-Sisters-Battle-James-Swallow/dp/1844162893

Erm ... yeah

It's hard to present the Sisters of Battle as good guys, because they really aren't. They're agents of the Ecclesiarchy which means at best they are delusional, fanatical followers of an oppressive state sponsored religious organization whose sole purpose is the manipulation and oppression of the masses.

Just because they believe fanatically in the Emperor, and the Emperor was good, doesn't mean they themselves are good. Ultimately, the Sisters are going to be difficult to properly portray in the fluff. They have good intentions, but that's only because their values are so twisted that their definition of "good" is often quite bad. Besides, you know what they say the road to Hell is paved with.

For more secular writers, the Sisters are easy antagonists, or at least conflict-creating supporting characters for stories with irreligious protagonists. They can easily be written as fanatical, headstrong, stubborn, and narrow-minded because, well, they probably are. For authors writing the Space Marines, the Sisters can be easily written as delusional and annoying, since the Space Marines know that the Sisters' devotional worship is misguided and not in accordance to the Emperor's will. In this case, the Sisters will rarely be antagonists, because ultimately the Space Marines are unlikely to go to war with the Sisters directly, but they can be used to create tension due to their wildly differing objectives.

They are displayed as easily influenced

Yes, that is one of GW's many idiocies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's hard to present the Sisters of Battle as good guys, because they really aren't.

Let's see...

-- Defenders of the weak and defenseless (as long as they're faithful, but that's most of the Imperium anyway), who gladly sacrifice themselves so civilians will not be corrupted or eaten; Elite soldiers who fight face to face with the worst enemies of the Imperium to defend it against the encroaching threats.

-- Expert physicians and surgeons who are practically worshiped as saints by the populace for their selfless and merciful devotion to medicine.

-- Scholars who catalogue and understand hte very concept of language so that they can unify the Imperium's many myriad cultures and understand what our enemies (and erstwhile allies) are saying.

-- Organizers who keep track of the lineage of Nobility, trying to prevent inbreeding, stop corruption, and keep noble houses from fighting in open warfare through political marriages, transactions, and etc.



Nope, nothing heroic here.

it's mostly GW's stupidity and the incompetence of the average BL author that prevents them from writing Sisters in a positive light. They aren't really that great of writers and they have very little imagination.

Melissia wrote:
-- Expert physicians and surgeons who are practically worshiped as saints by the populace for their selfless and merciful devotion to medicine.

-- Scholars who catalogue and understand hte very concept of language so that they can unify the Imperium's many myriad cultures and understand what our enemies (and erstwhile allies) are saying.

-- Organizers who keep track of the lineage of Nobility, trying to prevent inbreeding, stop corruption, and keep noble houses from fighting in open warfare through political marriages, transactions, and etc.

That's the thing they aren't just fighters the entire Adeptas Sororitas order is divided into little orders who do many things in many different ways, even if they have the most puritan women in the SoB the Sisters Dialogus have been portrayed as very radical and understanding of other cultures (In the codex for the Tau one of them speaks very highly of them, and I think there is the same situation in one of the Eldar codices but I'm not sure). And the Sisters Hospitaller are suppose to be one of the most compassionate and skilled healers in the galaxy. But most think of the as just the crazy Bolter- Bit**es.

You've described some followers of the Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition as well, lol. However, ultimately, those things sound heroic because you're spinning them n the best light possible.

How about "warriors of the Ecclessiarchy who occasionally defend those they believe to be weak and defenseless, but at other times oppress or murder those who actually are weak and defenseless, simply because their way of life doesn't conform to the vision of the Ecclessiarchy.

Scholars who catalog and understand the very concept and language so they can assist in the interrogation and torture of aliens and renegades.

Political wheelers and dealers who trace the lineages of noble houses in order to manipulate their political dealings and keep a close oversight in order ensure that they do not deviate from the vision of the Ecclessiarchy.

Doesn't sound so heroic when you realize that in addition to the things you said they do, they're also doing all of those things too. I think it would be hard to demonize the Sisters Hospitallar, but the other orders are just as morally dark gray as everyone else in the Imperium. Everything else is a facade.

Like I said, they're (at best) "delusional, fanatical followers of an oppressive state sponsored religious organization". The Sisters believe they are doing good. But they really aren't a lot of the time. But that's okay, there aren't really too many "good guys" in the Imperium anyway, so it isn't like that's a criticism.

But, the idea I was adding on to was why they get portrayed as antagonists or problematic elements in stories. And that's because it's very easy. The Ecclessiarchy is easily the most corrupt facet of the Imperium, Depicting the Sisters as unflinching, unbending agents of that agency will very quickly create friction in a story where the protagonists have different aims.

Look at their Third Edition Codex. It's called Codex: Witch Hunters, lol. There aren't exactly a lot of positive connotations that brings up in a historical context.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You've described some followers of the Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition as well, lol. However, ultimately, those things sound heroic because you're spinning them n the best light possible.

And this is somehow different from EVERY OTHER BLACK LIBRARY BOOK OUT THERE EVER, how again?

Psst: The answer is that it isn't.

Honestly your tirade against Sisters is nonsense. NOTHING in 40k is purely heroic with no bad sides. Ever.

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You've described some followers of the Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition as well, lol. However, ultimately, those things sound heroic because you're spinning them n the best light possible.

And this is somehow different from EVERY OTHER BLACK LIBRARY BOOK OUT THERE EVER, how again?

Psst: The answer is that it isn't.

Honestly your tirade against Sisters is nonsense. NOTHING in 40k is purely heroic with no bad sides. Ever.

Um barely any books are like that...

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's hard to present the Sisters of Battle as good guys

Good? Who said anything about good?

I was seeking more along the lines of effective,

I said this on another thread and i'll say it again (and what i'ma bout to say isn't even an original thought - its one that has been circulating for some time): Every faction has it day in the sun.

The Tyranids devour worlds. Chaos corrupts countless souls and drags the rest screaming into the warp. the Adeptus Astartes massacre their enemies and Xenos into the thousands. The Tau convert (whether peacefully or not) other species to their Greater Good. The Eldar plot and scheme and plan - sacrificing whole races to save the few. And the Necrons...well..everyone seems to be afraid of the Necrons as they march.

Heck, even the IG get their good on-screen time with untold number of deaths - but still an ability to hold the line.


And what are the the SoB good at? What have they been portrayed as again and again and again?

Dying.

Even the IG, who are literally walking cannon fodder at times, perform better than the SoB in fluff and fiction.

There's a word for that in real life - you know, when you purposely pull the rug from under a group again and again and again.

Edit - And may I add something addressed to everyone deigning to read this thread ?

Why does there seem to be this almost knee-jerk obsession amongst the folks invested into the various factions within the Imperium or the Tau or even the Eldar to debate the "goodness" of those factions?

Thank the Old Ones that Chaos, Tyranids, Orks, and Necron fans have bypassed this affliction.

Brother Thomas wrote:Um barely any books are like that...

Ciaphas Cain is like that for the Imperial Guard, and hell, even Gaunt's Ghosts depict the Imperial guard as winning every battle eventually, even if they take losses. Almost every Space Marine book ever written is like that for Space Marines, as well.

Games Workshop have specifically stated that bl books are basically written as propaganda.

Apparently, the new Soul Drinker's installment, "Phalanx" has some in it, though that's one of the few series I haven't started, and I didn't want to pick it up at the end like that. (Despite the idea of them being held at trial within the Imperial Fist's base being fairly cool.)

Lets not forget the cameo they had at the finale and near finale of Helsreach. Black Templars and Sisters of Battle- that's a lot of fanatical heretic hate balled up in one place!

As mentioned, the most evil I've seen is in "Flesh and Iron", generally they just die horribly

I've always felt the get a raw deal fluff wise. It isn't as if they are the only fanatics out there. People fall all over themselves over cool commissars shooting up people to scare them in to running in to a meat grinder... but the Sisters of Battle, they're just bonkers?

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Why does there seem to be this almost knee-jerk obsession amongst the folks invested into the various factions within the Imperium or the Tau or even the Eldar to debate the "goodness" of those factions?

My point was only that they could be, quite easily, depicted as heroic. But they aren't because black library authors, with few exceptions, are incompetent hacks and / or just plain don't care. A good combination of both I think.

There was a bit of fluff in the CSM codex where a group of Night Lords attacked a training planet for them, then used the bones of the dead to summon thousands of daemons to kill the rest of the world.

Melissia wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Why does there seem to be this almost knee-jerk obsession amongst the folks invested into the various factions within the Imperium or the Tau or even the Eldar to debate the "goodness" of those factions?

My point was only that they could be, quite easily, depicted as heroic. But they aren't because black library authors, with few exceptions, are incompetent hacks and / or just plain don't care. A good combination of both I think.

Oh i wasn't singling you out Melissia ~ its just been an overwhelming trend i'm seeing.

We start of with this idea that Wh40K is Grimdark - total dystopia where the only constant in the whole universe is that War is occurring.

and that's all well an good in theory....

But folks keep trying to carve out exceptions. For individuals I can understand - but for whole factions?

We've been treated to threads asking how "good" the Ultramarines or the Space Wolves, or (fill in Astartes chapter) or the Tau. etc.

Even Veteran Sergeant started his reply to this thread in such a mode (when the thread wasn't even asking for that).

And by the way i do agree with many of your points.

For a setting that basis itself on Dystopia, Morality seems to be on lots of people minds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:There was a bit of fluff in the CSM codex where a group of Night Lords attacked a training planet for them, then used the bones of the dead to summon thousands of daemons to kill the rest of the world.

Do the SoB jsut have a giant "Kick Me" Sign on them?

I just remembered a short story that haves a Cannones (not sure how it is spelled) and two senior sisters going after Miriel Sabatiel the only SoB that was corrupted by her own choosing... any ways they get killed by her. I think it was called "Invitation" but I'm not sure.

Yori wrote:I just remembered a short story that haves a Cannones (not sure how it is spelled) and two senior sisters going after Miriel Sabatiel the only SoB that was corrupted by her own choosing... any ways they get killed by her. I think it was called "Invitation" but I'm not sure.

Well first Yori, thank you and everyone else for their contributions to this thread. I have some reading to do.


Second - Wow. They really can't catch a break can they?

Just read Hammer and Anvil and I am currently reading Faith and Fire. I actually really like how they are portrayed in it. Not the main disobedient, but has her heart in the right place heroine Miriya, but all the other sisters are actually just what I expected them to be. A deep true belief in what they do coupled with a sorely tested faith in the leadership provided by the priests they often take orders from. I mean I really would never expect an all female army to like the men who order them around.
As far as why they are so often portrayed as inept in most other appearances? Cause it makes the enemy look strong without being unbeatable. An enemy wipes out some IG forces? Big deal, anyone could do that. An enemy wipes out a Space Marine force? Matt Ward would hunt down the offending author, his family, his pets, and crucify them at the nearest Games Workshop store. So that really only leave the SoB to be crushed, showing how powerful the enemy is, yet allowing whatever the chosen protagonist is to overcome them.

Dannyevilguy wrote:
As far as why they are so often portrayed as inept in most other appearances? Cause it makes the enemy look strong without being unbeatable. An enemy wipes out some IG forces? Big deal, anyone could do that. An enemy wipes out a Space Marine force? Matt Ward would hunt down the offending author, his family, his pets, and crucify them at the nearest Games Workshop store. So that really only leave the SoB to be crushed, showing how powerful the enemy is, yet allowing whatever the chosen protagonist is to overcome them.

Spoiler:

Heck even in Hammer and Anvil it was a SoB force originally overrun and killed by necrons that another Sisters force came and avenged.

I figured as much. The SoB are the perennial whipping boys..err girls of the WH40K universe. Although it doesn't make much sense from a marketing standpoint - no one will want to play a faction whose sole purpose in existence is to lose and make other factions look good.

it goes against the whole ethos of WH40K - which is about War (and the occasional winning of War).

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's hard to present the Sisters of Battle as good guys

Good? Who said anything about good?

You made a comment about them being antagonists. I simply expounded on the idea. If you had read what I wrote, you'd see that I very clearly delineated that there are few "good guys" in 40K.

And what are the the SoB good at? What have they been portrayed as again and again and again?

Dying.

Seems about right. They are few in number, overloaded with short range weaponry, lacking in comprehensive armor support, and believe that the intervention of a non-existent deity will assist them in victory, lol.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's hard to present the Sisters of Battle as good guys

Good? Who said anything about good?

You made a comment about them being antagonists. I simply expounded on the idea. If you had read what I wrote, you'd see that I very clearly delineated that there are few "good guys" in 40K.

And what are the the SoB good at? What have they been portrayed as again and again and again?

Dying.

Seems about right. They are few in number, overloaded with short range weaponry, lacking in comprehensive armor support, and believe that the intervention of a non-existent deity will assist them in victory, lol.

6+ Invulnerable save says what?

Used to be 3++ inv save.