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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Page 57 of the necron codex for orikan
page 53 of the BRB
Jetbikes moving through terrain, they started in terrain, they end in terrain. 2 tests or one?



 
   
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Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




Fond du Lac, Wi

Actually it's neither starting in nor ending in terrain, it's moving through. If a unit of bikes/jetbikes/jump infantry move, they will only take 1 dangerous terrain test.

Keep in mind the rules for Dangerous terrain tests
Roll a D6 for every model that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move.


Entered, left, or moved through terrain is the key. You will only ever take 1 dangerous terrain test in a given turn because of the word or, and the fact that it says roll A (read 1) d6 if the model entered, left, or moved through one or more areas of terrain. That means never more than one dangerous terrain test.

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.”
-Einstein 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Gotcha, the Jetbike section says if it starts or ends in difficult, it takes a test.



 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




I don't think that this true. I believe you take a DT test each time. Jetbikes don't "move through" terrain. They "move over". This may seem trivial but in fact it is very crucial, especially for turboboosts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/26 08:58:58


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Lone Dragoon wrote:Actually it's neither starting in nor ending in terrain, it's moving through. If a unit of bikes/jetbikes/jump infantry move, they will only take 1 dangerous terrain test.

Keep in mind the rules for Dangerous terrain tests
Roll a D6 for every model that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move.


Entered, left, or moved through terrain is the key. You will only ever take 1 dangerous terrain test in a given turn because of the word or, and the fact that it says roll A (read 1) d6 if the model entered, left, or moved through one or more areas of terrain. That means never more than one dangerous terrain test.


That is what it says for vehicles but the words for jump infantry are much different. get your quotes right.

There is a solid arguement for 2 tests and I agree with the 2 tests but most TOs rule that only one test happens.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind




BRB page 52 wrote:However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test.

If A or B, do C.

You can't get C twice out of that.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




Minnesota

Actually, rigeld2, it is possible to get two "C" out of that.

If someone is of the mind that moving is a process, rather than a single event (that is to say, first you move out of terrain, then take any associated checks, then move into terrain, and again take any associated checks) you would be checking the conditional twice, and you would have to take the terrain test twice.

If you are of the mind that movement is done all at once, and this check is made after the entirety of movement is completed, then you would only have to take the test once.

As the rule uses the word "moving" this means checks are made as the model moves (and that moving is indeed a process) rather than after all movement is complete. This means that the first option (taking two tests) is what actually happens.

In addition, if the second reading of the rule was true, there are other problematic implications. While the inclusive or exclusive nature of the "or" used doesn't matter for the first interpretation, the second interpretation can result in each type of "or" changing the way models take dangerous tests. For example, with an inclusive or, a model that both began and ended its movement in terrain would take a test, but the other interpretation, the exclusive "or", would make that same model not take a test at all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/26 20:32:34



Yngir theme song:
I get knocked down, but I get up again, you're never gonna keep me down; I get knocked down...

Suck on this, Leibniz!
Lordhat wrote:Just because the codexes are the exactly the same, does not mean that that they're the same codex.
 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre





Richmond, VA

You can only take one DT test per phase, and the nercon guy doesn't override it.

Desert Hunters of Vior'la The Purge Iron Hands Adepts of Pestilence Tallaran Desert Raiders
Lt. Coldfire wrote:Seems to me that you should be refereeing and handing out red cards--like a boss.

 Peregrine wrote:
SCREEE I'M A SEAGULL SCREE SCREEEE!!!!!
 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind




Kitzz wrote:Actually, rigeld2, it is possible to get two "C" out of that.

Not if you know how the rules work.

If someone is of the mind that moving is a process, rather than a single event (that is to say, first you move out of terrain, then take any associated checks, then move into terrain, and again take any associated checks) you would be checking the conditional twice, and you would have to take the terrain test twice.

Sure. But there's no rules support for that process.

As the rule uses the word "moving" this means checks are made as the model moves (and that moving is indeed a process) rather than after all movement is complete. This means that the first option (taking two tests) is what actually happens.

Rules citation - please explain this process using rules.

For example, with an inclusive or, a model that both began and ended its movement in terrain would take a test, but the other interpretation, the exclusive "or", would make that same model not take a test at all.

Not true at all. Do you know anything about boolean math?

TRUE or FALSE == TRUE.
TRUE or TRUE == TRUE
FALSE or FALSE == FALSE

That's how it works.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




There is an inherrent weakness in English (and most modern languages) to distinguish the "OR" from the "XOR (exclusive or)".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And/or

This case makes better sense as XOR. So you have to check each time.
   
Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




Minnesota

No need for the snarkiness. If you want a rule that shows moving is a process, read the tank shock rules, or the rules for area terrain and moving removable features. These kinds of movement show that moving is not one strict shunt. There are different things that can happen during a move, and many of them are not simultaneous.

As for boolean math, I'm not sure what you are getting at. I was using logic and its loose atomic ties to the english language. There are definitely two versions of the word "or."

Inclusive or:
False or False = False
True or False = True
False or True = True
True or True = True

Exclusive or:
False or False = False
True of False = True
False or True = True
True or True = False

It's that last line that I was talking about. Here's a wikipedia link that hopefully will help explain it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/26 21:00:33



Yngir theme song:
I get knocked down, but I get up again, you're never gonna keep me down; I get knocked down...

Suck on this, Leibniz!
Lordhat wrote:Just because the codexes are the exactly the same, does not mean that that they're the same codex.
 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind




Kitzz wrote:No need for the snarkiness. If you want a rule that shows moving is a process, read the tank shock rules

Which describe a process related to tank shocking, not simply moving.
or the rules for area terrain and moving removable features.

... which has nothing to do with it, really.

These kinds of movement show that moving is not one strict shunt. There are different things that can happen during a move, and many of them are not simultaneous.

I don't understand. Are you saying it's a process because there are steps involved and a time greater than an instant to get a model moved?

As for boolean math, I'm not sure what you are getting at. I was using logic and its loose atomic ties to the english language. There are definitely two versions of the word "or."

Apologies - now I understand what you meant.

But neither inclusive nor exclusive give a result of TRUEx2 or TRUE^2 or any value other than TRUE or FALSE. Which means you can only get one dangerous terrain test.
Since TRUE or TRUE == FALSE makes no sense in the context of the rules, it must be the Inclusive or.

edit: and I'm not being intentionally snarky - I'm just blunt when it comes to a lot of the people in YMDC because I try not to inject bias or humor into my posts here... except when replying to a few people.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/26 21:10:50


My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




Minnesota

Moving is a process. A vehicle may pivot "as it moves." As they are moving, jump infantry as well as jetbikes check for dangerous terrain. Because the rule says "moving" and not "moved" this means it is done within a timeframe of the move.

While I'm not sure it's 100% concrete, the argument that movement is one single shunt is actually harder to make within the confines of the 40k rules. Things are done before, during and after movements (such as a squad that declares it will move into difficult terrain, then rolls, then discovers it can't move into terrain, then decides to stay put but still count as having moved). Sweep attacks also use the present tense. Vehicle movement uses the word "during" to describe how it moves, meaning that the move must have some duration.


Yngir theme song:
I get knocked down, but I get up again, you're never gonna keep me down; I get knocked down...

Suck on this, Leibniz!
Lordhat wrote:Just because the codexes are the exactly the same, does not mean that that they're the same codex.
 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind




Even if I grant that it's a process -
if a moving jump infantry model begins or
ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a
dangerous terrain test.

It's beginning or ending a move. It's not the in between - just the start or finish. If either is true, take a test. If both are true, take a test. If neither is true, don't take a test.

I'm not seeing any other way to interpret that.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




This is the OR side. For XOR you would test for each instance.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind




copper.talos wrote:This is the OR side. For XOR you would test for each instance.

Sure, but XOR makes no sense in this context - because if both were true then it sums up to false.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




When moving from/to 1 point only one of "begins or ends its move in difficult terrain" is true, so using XOR it's a test for each instance.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/26 21:56:47


 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind




copper.talos wrote:When moving from/to 1 point only one of "begins or ends its move in difficult terrain" is true, so it's a test for each instance.

No - because a move is a singular thing. It might be a process but that process is still singular. You only finish a move one time.

"Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase."
That's one move.
"Once a unit has completed all of its movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one, and so on, until the player has moved all of the units he wishes to move."
That's one move.

So if you begin or end that move in difficult terrain...

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Unrelated quotes to the point at hand.

Anyway there isn't anything new to be added to the discussion. As it has been proven XOR is as likely as OR in such sentences. And using the OR logic the result is very exploitable. Using XOR there is no exploits and it makes better sense.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind




copper.talos wrote:Unrelated quotes to the point at hand.

Unrelated? How?

Anyway there isn't anything new to be added to the discussion. As it has been proven XOR is as likely as OR in such sentences. And using the OR logic the result is very exploitable. Using XOR there is no exploits and it makes better sense.

What exploits?
How does it make "better sense" for one unit type in the book to suffer twice as much as any other?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Using XOR requires you to make multiple moves.
The rules forbid a unit from moving more than once.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/26 22:16:05


My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




If it is dangerous to take off from terrain and it is dangerous to land on terrain then it should be twice as dangerous to take off and land on terrain.

As for exploits here are 2 examples:
You have a squad of jetbikes in terrain. and there are 2 objectives in terrain that you can barely contest with a t-boost. If you roll only once for DT then you know beforehand which jetbikes will survive and know towards what objective to turboboost.

You have a skimmer transport in terrain you may want to flat out towards another terrain. Rolling once for DT lets you know beforehand if you can reach that destination at no risk for the vehicle or the passengers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/26 22:31:49


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre





Richmond, VA

copper.talos wrote:
You have a squad of jetbikes in terrain. and there are 2 objectives in terrain that you can barely contest with a t-boost. If you roll only once for DT then you know beforehand which jetbikes will survive and know towards what objective to turboboost.

You have a skimmer transport in terrain you may want to flat out towards another terrain. Rolling once for DT lets you know beforehand if you can reach that destination at no risk for the vehicle or the passengers.


Can't do the first one, as you roll for each model right before they move. Each model, not roll and remove per shooting.

Nor can you pull the second one off. You don't move 12, and then move more. You go flat out from the start, meaning you declare that and then roll. If you try to pivot and then roll, well your vehicle pivoted and can't move again.

Desert Hunters of Vior'la The Purge Iron Hands Adepts of Pestilence Tallaran Desert Raiders
Lt. Coldfire wrote:Seems to me that you should be refereeing and handing out red cards--like a boss.

 Peregrine wrote:
SCREEE I'M A SEAGULL SCREE SCREEEE!!!!!
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




I don't understand your 1st objection, can you be more clear?
edit: Ii think I got. Plz try to imagine this:

Obj A -----26"-------- J1 -1"- J2 -----26"-------- Obj B

Rolling once for DT you will know if J1 (jetbike 1) survives or J2 survives, and you can now safely contest the objective.

As for your 2nd objection, you never "declare" a flat out move. You just move the skimmer more than 12". It's a normal movement like combat speed. So when you start your movement there is no indication if a failed DT test should mean immobilised or wrecked and lost passengers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/26 22:48:25


 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind




copper.talos wrote:If it is dangerous to take off from terrain and it is dangerous to land on terrain then it should be twice as dangerous to take off and land on terrain.

As for exploits here are 2 examples:
You have a squad of jetbikes in terrain. and there are 2 objectives in terrain that you can barely contest with a t-boost. If you roll only once for DT then you know beforehand which jetbikes will survive and know towards what objective to turboboost.

You have a skimmer transport in terrain you may want to flat out towards another terrain. Rolling once for DT lets you know beforehand if you can reach that destination at no risk for the vehicle or the passengers.

And neither of those are rule based objections.
Your interpretation means each unit moves more than once.
The rules explicitly forbid that.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




It's one move in both cases. And I called them "exploits" that can be avoided with the XOR logic. Not "rule based objections"...
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind




copper.talos wrote:It's one move in both cases. And I called them "exploits" that can be avoided with the XOR logic. Not "rule based objections"...

No, it's not one move.

The JI rule says if you begin or end your move...
And you can only move once...
How can you begin or end your move more than once?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I don't see those as exploits at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/26 23:05:49


My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in ca
Hardened Veteran Guardsman






I believe it just means wheather you have started OR ended in DT you take the test not and/or*

because if you had to take 2 test im almost 100% sure it would have been clearly stated with an ex: or like i said before with and/or saying that 2 test would be needed

EX: If you move from DT to Reg terrain you take the test...
You move from Reg terrain to DT you take the test...
Wheather or not you started or ended in DT you take the Test...

All i can understand from that is 1 test....
you may be looking to far into it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now if your in DT and end in DT thats 1 test and if you run in shooting phase that would be when the second test comes in... no?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/26 23:52:04


= 1000pts
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Yeah i went away and came back and this thread was over thought...

So...Heres my overthinking.

If jetbike is in dt, and moves to clear terrain, does it take a test or tests?
If jetbike is in dt, and moves to dt, does it take a test or tests?
If jetbike is in clear terrain, and moves to clear terrain, does it take a test or tests?
If jetbike is in clear terrain, and moves to dt 18 inches from where it started, does it take a test or tests?
If jetbike is in dt, and moves to different dt 18 inches from where it started, at a different elevation, does it take a test or tests?
If jetbike is in dt, and hops over clear terrain to reach another dt area, does it take a test or tests?

Remember, jetbikes treat terrain as if they were skimmers, the terrain they move over, including models and impass is ignored until they stop.

Also, how can you honestly come to YMDC and type that begins and ends is the same thing? Really?
So if i begin my turn, it also ends my turn? Doesnt that create some sort of paradox loop or something?
Oh, i know. In game turns and in RAI and RAW youll bring up multiple examples of how beginning your turn and ending it are actually the same.
Go ahead, bring your boolean math to prove the two are the same.



 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind




Basimpo wrote:Yeah i went away and came back and this thread was over thought...

So...Heres my overthinking.

If jetbike is in dt, and moves to clear terrain, does it take a test or tests?
If jetbike is in dt, and moves to dt, does it take a test or tests?
If jetbike is in clear terrain, and moves to clear terrain, does it take a test or tests?
If jetbike is in clear terrain, and moves to dt 18 inches from where it started, does it take a test or tests?
If jetbike is in dt, and moves to different dt 18 inches from where it started, at a different elevation, does it take a test or tests?
If jetbike is in dt, and hops over clear terrain to reach another dt area, does it take a test or tests?

Remember, jetbikes treat terrain as if they were skimmers, the terrain they move over, including models and impass is ignored until they stop.

Also, how can you honestly come to YMDC and type that begins and ends is the same thing? Really?
So if i begin my turn, it also ends my turn? Doesnt that create some sort of paradox loop or something?
Oh, i know. In game turns and in RAI and RAW youll bring up multiple examples of how beginning your turn and ending it are actually the same.
Go ahead, bring your boolean math to prove the two are the same.

Was all that directed at me?
Have you read my posts in this thread?
If yes to both of those, mind summing up what you think my opinion is?

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman






LoL it was directed at me....
And now he's upset from overloading his brain on a rule he went to in depth with...

Also Happens alot with people who play magic lol!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/27 05:37:19


= 1000pts
 
   
 
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