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I didn't see anything for this in a search, so here goes...

I know everyone has run into these beasts, and they pretty much slaughter everything they touch. I think I've found something that will slow them down (against a few units).

Bear with me for a moment. Lets say a Happy Hands (HH) charges a unit of 3 Chaos Space marine terminators, one with a power weapon, one with a power fist, and one with a chainfist. The HH strikes first and does 3 wounds. The CSM player assigns the wounds to the terminators, one to each. The PW and the PF fail, while the CF makes his save. Therefore, the HH receives 2 bonus attacks. Both hit and wound.

Now, normally people would play that both wounds are assigned to the CF, which most likely will fail one and die. However, this will mean that the CF has had 3 wounds assigned to it at I 5, while the other two models in the unit will have only taken one each. According to pg 25, "... the process is repeated and the player must allocate a second wound to all models in the target unit before he can allocate a third wound to a model..." Therefore, assigning two additional wounds to the CF is incorrect, as a wound must be applied to every other model in the unit before the CF can take three. Therefore, one of the wounds must be applied to the PF or PW.

However, if you can assign a wound to the PF or PW, why can you not assign both wounds to them, and leave the CF alone? There is in fact nothing preventing you from doing so. I don't have the exact wording for the HH's Blood Talons in front of me, but there is nothing in the Blood Talon's to say that the wounds must be applied to a surviving model, just that the HH gets additional attacks for each unsaved wound.

The only rule the HH overwrites that all attacks must be resolved before saves are made. It doesn't overwrite the wound allocation for complex units rules, therefore you can assign overkill to already dead models.

Now, this is a fairly rare case. Only complex units with invulnerable saves can actually accomplish this, as you must be able to survive hits from the HH to have dead models that can soak hits for living models, and have the unit complex enough that additional failed saves won't kill more models.

Thoughts?

im fairly sure you cannot allocate more wounds to already dead models, even at the same Init....

Whenever you assign two power weapon wounds to the same unique model to save another model through wound allocation, you are assigning a wound to an already dead model.

The issue stems from how it is listed in the codex. They must roll for the save before the bonus attack is generated. Since you have already a located the initial wounds and resolved to generate additional attacks I don't think you should be able to allocate more additional wounds to already dead models. This rules happens outside of the int sequence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thegreyman wrote:Whenever you assign two power weapon wounds to the same unique model to save another model through wound allocation, you are assigning a wound to an already dead model.

Correct because you are told to allocate in this way. The difference is that you only roll those saves once unless you have a rule telling you other wise. Blood Talons tell you to roll to hit, make save if able, and then once those are resolved roll additional hits and wounds.

thegreyman wrote:Whenever you assign two power weapon wounds to the same unique model to save another model through wound allocation, you are assigning a wound to an already dead model.

Actually, you're not. That model will be dead (assuming no invuln saves, only 1 wound) though, but that's still in the future. It hasn't happened until he suffers last unsaved wound.

thegreyman wrote:
The only rule the HH overwrites that all attacks must be resolved before saves are made. It doesn't overwrite the wound allocation for complex units rules, therefore you can assign overkill to already dead models.

It doesn't need to. Whenever Blood Talon causes unsaved wound on a such model, that model is immediately removed as casualty.
"Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty." BRB, page 24.
Thus when you want to allocate those new wounds caused by Blood Talon, those models are not on table any longer...

So it works quite simply:
Allocate wounds, roll saves, use normal rules for removing casualties. Then roll extra attacks for Blood Talons. Allocate wounds for remaining models on table, lather, rinse, repeat.

no idea

I reckon Wound Allocation trumps Blood Talons here. Blood Talons confer additional attacks, but they're resolved at the same Initiative step, and as such it makes sense for them to follow the normal Wound Allocation rules.

automatonsleuth wrote:I reckon Wound Allocation trumps Blood Talons here. Blood Talons confer additional attacks, but they're resolved at the same Initiative step, and as such it makes sense for them to follow the normal Wound Allocation rules.

I would have to disagree with this, as specific trumps general, if I recall correctly.

The Blood Talons piece of wargear alters the normal sequence by having attacks that may occur after saves are taken. Once the model is removed as a casualty, you cannot assign wounds to them. The additional attacks would occur after the model is removed.

Under normal wound allocation, similar to what chewielight and Luide are saying, the models haven't been removed yet when you're allocating wounds. In this case, specific to Blood Talons, the models the OP is wanting to allocate wounds to have already been removed.

The Blood Talon bonus attacks occur at this magical place between I4 (or 5 with FC) and 3 (or 4 with FC). I would liken it to exploding a vehicle and having to allocate those wounds - which we do using the normal process for allocating wounds in general - spread them evenly across models and roll your wound allocation groups.

The reason wounds from a shooting attack or at an initiative step are allocated together, is they occur simultaneously. Do not confuse the ordering of an initiative step as a metric for measuring time for these other wound causing mechanisms - it merely suggests a relative ordering to resolve attacks.

It does discretize all events in CC into categories from 1 to 10.

If Blood Talons said "for every wound caused", then you would have a claim. But because it says for every unsaved wound caused. When is a wound unsaved? After a model has failed an armor save/inv save/cover save. What happens when a model fails a save? They immediately lose a wound. If it is their last wound then they are removed from play.

After this has been done then the Dread gets to make additional attacks. Since the models are no longer on the board you can not allocate wounds to them.


Think of the Dread attacks as mini Ints I5, I5a, I5b, and so on.

jbunny wrote:If Blood Talons said "for every wound caused", then you would have a claim. But because it says for every unsaved wound caused. When is a wound unsaved? After a model has failed an armor save/inv save/cover save. What happens when a model fails a save? They immediately lose a wound. If it is their last wound then they are removed from play.

After this has been done then the Dread gets to make additional attacks. Since the models are no longer on the board you can not allocate wounds to them.


Think of the Dread attacks as mini Ints I5, I5a, I5b, and so on.

that!

But seriously, just shoot it... I'm an ork and a blood talon rarely killz more than one squad. Remember that a weapon destroyed, immobilised and of course wrecked or explode rends that dreadnough close to non existant ont eh board..