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Glendale, AZ

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/07/long-island-man-arrested-for-defending-home-with-ak-47/

UNIONDALE, N.Y. (CBS 2) — He was arrested for protecting his property and family.

But it’s how the Long Island man did it that police say crossed the line.

He got an AK-47 assault rifle, pulled the trigger and he ended up in jail, reports CBS 2’s Pablo Guzman.

George Grier said he had to use his rifle on Sunday night to stop what he thought was going to be an invasion of his Uniondale home by a gang he thought might have been the vicious “MS-13.” He said the whole deal happened as he was about to drive his cousin home.

“I went around and went into the house, ran upstairs and told my wife to call the police. I get the gun and I go outside and I come into the doorway and now, by this time, they are in the driveway, back here near the house. I tell them, you know, ‘Can you please leave?’ Grier said.

Grier said the five men dared him to use the gun; and that their shouts brought another larger group of gang members in front of his house.

“He starts threatening my family, my life. ‘Oh you’re dead. I’m gonna kill your family and your babies. You’re dead.’ So when he says that, 20 others guys come rushing around the corner. And so I fired four warning shots into the grass,” Grier said.


Grier was later arrested. John Lewis is Grier’s attorney.

“What he’s initially charged with – A D felony reckless endangerment — requires a depraved indifference to human life, creating a risk that someone’s going to die. Shooting into a lawn doesn’t create a risk of anybody dying,” Lewis said.

Grier said he knew Nassau County Police employ the hi-tech “ShotSpotter” technology in his area and that the shooting would bring police in minutes. Cops told Guzman he was very cooperative.

Grier also said he was afraid the gang outside his house was the dreaded MS-13. And Nassau County Police Lt. Andrew Mulraine, head of the gang unit, said MS-13 has 2,000 members in the county.

“They’re probably the most organized. They almost have a military hierarchy within the gang, so they are the most organized gang we encounter on a daily basis,” Mulraine said.

You may think a person has the right to defend their home. But the law says you can only use physical force to deter physical force. Grier said he never saw anyone pull out a gun, so a court would have to decide on firing the gun.

Police determined Grier had the gun legally. He has no criminal record. And so he was not charged for the weapon.

That ShotSpotter technology pinpoints where a gun has been fired within 35 feet. Police said it also detected two other shootings in nearby Roosevelt that night.

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Chicago, Illinois

So we are charging people for trying to protect themselves from vicious thugs?

So with all the people who have guns are taken out the picture doesn't that mean that the gangs will go around unhindered by anyone?

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But were they wearing hoodies?

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Chicago, Illinois

SlaveToDorkness wrote:But were they wearing hoodies?

Slave.... no.
MS-13 is a massive gang that basically has alot of weaponry. I've heard about them and I live in chicago. These guys are little bit worse than you think.

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Liverpool

Innocent man arrested for protecting his property and family?

Woohoo, way to go justice! This person was clearly in the wrong, who does he think he is to protect his loved ones from evil.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/28 17:02:17


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This story seems a bit far fetched, seems to sensalized to me.

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unmercifulconker wrote:Innocent man arrested for protecting his property and family?

Woohoo, way to go justice! This person was clearly in the wrong, who does he think he is to protect his loved ones from evil.

Did you actually read the article, by chance?

George Grier said he had to use his rifle on Sunday night to stop what he thought was going to be an invasion of his Uniondale home by a gang he thought might have been the vicious “MS-13.” He said the whole deal happened as he was about to drive his cousin home.

Note:
It doesn't say "He was inside of his house and they were breaking in". He was outside and he thought his house was going to be invaded.

“I went around and went into the house, ran upstairs and told my wife to call the police. I get the gun and I go outside and I come into the doorway and now, by this time, they are in the driveway, back here near the house. I tell them, you know, ‘Can you please leave?’ Grier said.

There's a key piece in there.
I get the gun and I go outside and I come into the doorway and now, by this time, they are in the driveway, back here near the house.

He escalated the situation, right here and it effectively 'changes the rules' as to what's happening. We don't know that they were going to break in. We don't know that they were threatening him, etc prior to this point.

All we know is that he went into the house and came back outside with a gun.
Grier said the five men dared him to use the gun; and that their shouts brought another larger group of gang members in front of his house.

“He starts threatening my family, my life. ‘Oh you’re dead. I’m gonna kill your family and your babies. You’re dead.’ So when he says that, 20 others guys come rushing around the corner. And so I fired four warning shots into the grass,” Grier said.

Depending on where you are, the idea of "warning shots" is...unlikely to be accepted.

“What he’s initially charged with – A D felony reckless endangerment — requires a depraved indifference to human life, creating a risk that someone’s going to die. Shooting into a lawn doesn’t create a risk of anybody dying,” Lewis said.

You see this?
This right here is why he was arrested. Not for "defending his family" or anything. Because he fired a gun in the direction of these individuals. If he had shot and killed one of them, he likely would have been arrested as well.

But the law says you can only use physical force to deter physical force. Grier said he never saw anyone pull out a gun, so a court would have to decide on firing the gun.

This is where the issue lies. Was he allowed to do this? You cannot use physical force to deter physical force. I can't shoot you in the face because I think you might be reaching for a gun to shoot me in the face. I have to have a reasonable expectation of immediate danger, such as you pulling out a gun and aiming it at me.


That said:
MS-13 is no joke, but at the same time they as a gang are not really known for doing home invasions. Executions of informants or rival gang members?
Oh hell yeah they do that. They're brutal as hell.
   
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a journalist wrote:You may think a person has the right to defend their home. But the law says you can only use physical force to deter physical force.

This guy must be slowed. "the law" says :

use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person.

Which is pretty universal in intent if not wording in every justification section of state laws. I'm sure given the size and posture of the crowd that the dude can demonstrate the reasonable belief that the use of unlawful force was imminent.

Never fire a warning shot. Which is really what he is being charged with. I'd be pretty surprised if the DA doesn't drop the charges after a short investigation.

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This seems unfair...

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Hold the fricken phone...this story is 2 years old.

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Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
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It is?
Quick, someone find out what happened to him!

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I don't know why I didn't realize it sooner the date is in the link in the OP. But when I searched to find out "new" information all the articles were from 6 and 7 Sept, 2010. Haven't found an outcome yet. Apparently a man by the same name was arrested in Dallas though.

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Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
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I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
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Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
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http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/uniondale-man-who-fired-gun-into-lawn-not-indicted-1.2432459

Found that, but can't testify as to the validity of newsday. They give you "5 free views", so I'd assume everyone can see it though.
   
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Somewhere in southern England.

So it all happened over a year ago and the man was not indicted.


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Head line should have been "Black man threatens and shoots at unarmed Hispanic teens just walking home after buying skittles for thier little brothers: La Raza outraged. Protests in the streets. Justice for MS-13"

Oh, I'm sorry: were they wearing hoodies?




Ps: it's good to know the state did right by that guy; although I am surprised they pursued it to grand jury.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
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Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
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Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
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Actually Auston, a lot of the articles I saw did make a note of "Black Man shoots at youths with AK47".
   
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“What he’s initially charged with – A D felony reckless endangerment — requires a depraved indifference to human life, creating a risk that someone’s going to die. Shooting into a lawn doesn’t create a risk of anybody dying,”
I think that's a fairly good argument myself.

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Melissia wrote:
“What he’s initially charged with – A D felony reckless endangerment — requires a depraved indifference to human life, creating a risk that someone’s going to die. Shooting into a lawn doesn’t create a risk of anybody dying,”
I think that's a fairly good argument myself.

It really is not though.

While he was not indicted for it, it certainly is behaving with a "depraved indifference to human life" firing a weapon in the direction of people in a residential area. It certainly is creating a risk as well pulling out a gun and then opening fire in said residential area, especially when it's not necessarily the case that the people "advancing on his house" were going to break in, etc.
   
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Oklahoma City, OK

Even in gun-happy Oklahoma with some pretty good self defense laws, this guy would have been in trouble.

You cannot walk around showing your weapon with an intend to intimidate anybody, even if they are bad guys. That will get you felony branding charges.

You also cannot fire "warning shots", that will get you felony charges as well. Any bullet not fired into a bad guy is a bullet that can hit an innocent bystander down the road. "Firing in the yard is not going to hurt anybody" is not an valid excuse. All it takes is for it to hit a rock, bounce of, and fly through the window next door.

I am 100% pro self-defense, I am 100% for concealed carry, but I also think that your gun only leaves your holster for one single purpose. To neutralize a thread. It doesn't come out to scare people. It doesn't come out to fire warning shots. It only comes out because something is about to go down, and if you don't kill them before they kill you.

Heck, if that guy would have stayed inside his house and unloaded the gun through the front door as soon as the doorknob rattled I would defend him 100%. But going outside with a gun to threaten a gang was dumb. This isn't Gran Tourino.


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Kanluwen wrote:
Melissia wrote:
“What he’s initially charged with – A D felony reckless endangerment — requires a depraved indifference to human life, creating a risk that someone’s going to die. Shooting into a lawn doesn’t create a risk of anybody dying,”
I think that's a fairly good argument myself.

It really is not though.

While he was not indicted for it, it certainly is behaving with a "depraved indifference to human life" firing a weapon in the direction of people in a residential area. It certainly is creating a risk as well pulling out a gun and then opening fire in said residential area, especially when it's not necessarily the case that the people "advancing on his house" were going to break in, etc.

I'd argue that it was the fact he wasn't indifferent to human life which made him open fire.
It's not like he saw some people on his lawn and started firing.
People threatened him, his wife and his child then he fired warning shots rather than directly firing at them (Which frankly wouldn't have been a difficult task considering where they stood)

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Heh, I do find it funny that a guy can fire an assault rifle in a residential area and people are surprised that he gets arrested.

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d-usa wrote:I am 100% pro self-defense, I am 100% for concealed carry, but I also think that your gun only leaves your holster for one single purpose. To neutralize a thread. It doesn't come out to scare people. It doesn't come out to fire warning shots. It only comes out because something is about to go down, and if you don't kill them before they kill you.

Neutralize a thread? No wonder so many on Dakka are pro-gun
But yeah, im pro second amendment. But for its original intent, to protect yourself. People should not be going around with 90 guns in there garage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/29 03:03:20


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purplefood wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Melissia wrote:
“What he’s initially charged with – A D felony reckless endangerment — requires a depraved indifference to human life, creating a risk that someone’s going to die. Shooting into a lawn doesn’t create a risk of anybody dying,”
I think that's a fairly good argument myself.

It really is not though.

While he was not indicted for it, it certainly is behaving with a "depraved indifference to human life" firing a weapon in the direction of people in a residential area. It certainly is creating a risk as well pulling out a gun and then opening fire in said residential area, especially when it's not necessarily the case that the people "advancing on his house" were going to break in, etc.

I'd argue that it was the fact he wasn't indifferent to human life which made him open fire.
It's not like he saw some people on his lawn and started firing.

That's actually exactly what happened. He saw people standing around his house, went inside and got his gun. Which led to this next part.

People threatened him, his wife and his child then he fired warning shots rather than directly firing at them (Which frankly wouldn't have been a difficult task considering where they stood)

People threatened him after he stepped out of his house with a gun.
   
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If they threatened him after he had his gun out then clearly they mean him some kind of harm if they felt he wouldn't use it.
Why the hell would you threaten someone holding a gun?

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This is ridiculous? What was supposed to do when those people attacked him? Twenty people and you can only respond with pyshical force? I thought we had a right to defend ourselves.

I just really hope this guy dosent get put in jail for this...

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Jumpin Jesus wrote:This is ridiculous? What was supposed to do when those people attacked him? Twenty people and you can only respond with pyshical force? I thought we had a right to defend ourselves.

I just really hope this guy dosent get put in jail for this...

Read the thread dude.
The article is a year old and he hasn't been convicted of it...

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"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
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purplefood wrote:
Jumpin Jesus wrote:This is ridiculous? What was supposed to do when those people attacked him? Twenty people and you can only respond with pyshical force? I thought we had a right to defend ourselves.

I just really hope this guy dosent get put in jail for this...

Read the thread dude.
The article is a year old and he hasn't been convicted of it...


Ah. Sorry. xP

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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Lordhat posted an overblown populist article talking about the great oppression of the authorities? Shock. It was a year old and wrong? Doubleshock.

Hats!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/29 03:30:22


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