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CT

I was having this debate with a couple friends of mine. Between the three of us, we play Khador, cygnar, Retribution, and Menoth. We were debating which faction has the best spearwall style infantry - Those would be units like Iron fang pikemen, Houseguard halbrediers, temple flameguard etc. They like to say that everything in my army (Khador) is overpowered, but I am not sold on this. In looking at other factions like the retribution, I sometimes envy the abilities that those units have, primarily set defence, ranked attacks, brutal charge etc etc...

I was just wondering how Dakka feels about these units and how you guys would rank them in order from best to worst:

Here is how I would rank them:

1: Houseguard Halbrediers
2: Ironfang Pikemen
3: Temple flameguard
4: Stormguard

I put the IFPs second to the halbrediers mainly becuase they have only 2 advantages, they hit harder, and their feat is better IMHO. The houseguards have basically the same stat line, they do not hit as hard, but they have ranked attacks, powerful charge (or was it brutal?), and set defence. What this means is that they are harder to hit on a charge than the IFPs, they can usually get more models in a CMA than the IFPs, and they have better chance to hit on the charge. Also - Their UA's feat makes them very very dangerous, even to relatively high DEF models. In addition to all this, they cost less points than the IFPs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Woops, just checked and the houseguards have brutal charge, not powerful charge. So, on a charge they hit with P+S12, just 1 shy of the iron fangs. WIth their feat they hit with a P+S14 on the charge, and have higher MAT than the iron fangs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/02 18:31:16


71 pts khador - 6 war casters
41 pts merc highborn - 3 warcasters 
   
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Gun Mage







I have a hard time comparing all of those units in function since the army they fit in changes how they are used. If I had to make a list without putting much deep thought in It would be this:
houseguard- effective, well rounded, and points efficient
flameguard- cheap, defensive ,and massively annoying to deal with
iron fangs- very hard hitting and somewhat defensive
stormguard- highly accurate and rather powerful, but expensive

   
Made in ca
Rogue




It's equally important to include which buffs these units can get. Houseguard have no access to Tough, but the other three do. IFP only via a Warcaster, and both Stormguard and Flameguard from a Solo. Things like access to Vengence, Iron Flesh, Defender's Ward, Ranked Attack, Blast Damage Immunity and speed/movement buffs in the early game, etc. etc. can swing the value of a tar-pit units like these. Trying to line them up in a vaccum seems like it would be worse then pointless.
   
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Portland

No love for Steelheads, really? I'd say that I'd rank them:
Houseguard (from what I've heard, mostly undercosted and strong abilities)
Steelheads (great if charging or charged, strong synergies with others-- combined with SH cav, they'll make your life a nightmare)
Flameguard (a brick with decent damage output)
Ironfangs (good, but better options)
Stormguard (overpriced, decent)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/02 20:37:59




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KingKodo wrote:I was having this debate with a couple friends of mine. Between the three of us, we play Khador, cygnar, Retribution, and Menoth. We were debating which faction has the best spearwall style infantry - Those would be units like Iron fang pikemen, Houseguard halbrediers, temple flameguard etc. They like to say that everything in my army (Khador) is overpowered, but I am not sold on this. In looking at other factions like the retribution, I sometimes envy the abilities that those units have, primarily set defence, ranked attacks, brutal charge etc etc...

I was just wondering how Dakka feels about these units and how you guys would rank them in order from best to worst:

Here is how I would rank them:

1: Houseguard Halbrediers
2: Ironfang Pikemen
3: Temple flameguard
4: Stormguard

I put the IFPs second to the halbrediers mainly becuase they have only 2 advantages, they hit harder, and their feat is better IMHO. The houseguards have basically the same stat line, they do not hit as hard, but they have ranked attacks, powerful charge (or was it brutal?), and set defence. What this means is that they are harder to hit on a charge than the IFPs, they can usually get more models in a CMA than the IFPs, and they have better chance to hit on the charge. Also - Their UA's feat makes them very very dangerous, even to relatively high DEF models. In addition to all this, they cost less points than the IFPs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Woops, just checked and the houseguards have brutal charge, not powerful charge. So, on a charge they hit with P+S12, just 1 shy of the iron fangs. WIth their feat they hit with a P+S14 on the charge, and have higher MAT than the iron fangs.


Depends on what you want them to do.

Best Cheap Tarpit:
1: Temple Flameguard. For 6 points you can have a minimum shieldwall unit
that can go up to ARM 21 once per game. Usually that's a enough to forestall
someone from rolling you, and you can CMA plink fire in return.

Best Combined Arms:
Houseguard Halberdiers Ranked Attacks is amazing.

Good Combined Arms:
Stormguard. Same as above, but Houseguard get far more offensive capability
out of a UA and with Brutal Charge.

Best Feat/Spell Interactions:
I think my favorite has to be Iron Fang Pikeman with eVlad. Transference
and Critical Knockdown is amazing. Add Blood feat and someone's
going down. Add mini-feat and they're doing this from far far away.

Best Elite Tarpit:
Cetrati. Multiple wounds, and the option to be immune to spells (both good and bad?).
CMA, fearless, shieldwall, yes...

Best cheap support offense:
Steelheads in a steelhead list.






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CT

spiralingcadaver wrote:No love for Steelheads, really? I'd say that I'd rank them:
Houseguard (from what I've heard, mostly undercosted and strong abilities)
Steelheads (great if charging or charged, strong synergies with others-- combined with SH cav, they'll make your life a nightmare)
Flameguard (a brick with decent damage output)
Ironfangs (good, but better options)
Stormguard (overpriced, decent)


I was always confused as to why steelheads were considered to be so good... They have the lowest MAT and the lowest ARM of any unit in this list, along with no shieldwall order makes them quite squishy. I would say that they are almost on par with temple flameguard, but including how amazing the flameguard's UA is (Fire continuous effect, ranked attacks, and double shield wall mini feat) puts the flameguard over the steelheads easily. The steelheads have a singular advantage over the flamguard by having MAT7 on a charge vs the flameguard's MAT 6... And they are the same point cost...And flameguard have access to buffs like defender's ward, guided hand, and eye of menoth to name just a few. I would be hesitant in putting the steelheads anywhere except on the bottom of the list, maybe ahead of the stormguard simply due to their cost... Also - I wouldnt say steelheads are great when charging or charged, in those circumstances, they become not bad, but definately not better than the flameguard or houseguard, considering they share similar abilities.

I just think, overall, IFPs arent actually that good without that mini feat. Khador doesnt have issues with hitting stuff hard, so the IFPs sort of solve a problem that khador didnt have in the first place. Especially with access to buffs like battle lust and fury, I find that the higher POW of the IFPs just ends up being overkill in most of my games. I would love to see powerful charge (+2 MAT on charging), set defense, or ranked attacks in exchange for a little less POW on the weapon, maybe POW 11 or 12. The fact that they are also more expensive than almost everything on this list...with less abilities...just makes the situation worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - Malfred, the IFP mini gives them an advance and shieldwall order AFTER their activations end, so, their threat range does not increase. Also - the feat does not effect the UA at all. ALSO - The officer and standard dont even have shieldwall... God the more I talk about their lack of abilities, the more they suck... No wonder I always run Kayazy assassins...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 05:38:31


71 pts khador - 6 war casters
41 pts merc highborn - 3 warcasters 
   
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KingKodo wrote:
spiralingcadaver wrote:No love for Steelheads, really? I'd say that I'd rank them:
Houseguard (from what I've heard, mostly undercosted and strong abilities)
Steelheads (great if charging or charged, strong synergies with others-- combined with SH cav, they'll make your life a nightmare)
Flameguard (a brick with decent damage output)
Ironfangs (good, but better options)
Stormguard (overpriced, decent)


I was always confused as to why steelheads were considered to be so good... They have the lowest MAT and the lowest ARM of any unit in this list, along with no shieldwall order makes them quite squishy. I would say that they are almost on par with temple flameguard, but including how amazing the flameguard's UA is (Fire continuous effect, ranked attacks, and double shield wall mini feat) puts the flameguard over the steelheads easily. The steelheads have a singular advantage over the flamguard by having MAT7 on a charge vs the flameguard's MAT 6... And they are the same point cost...And flameguard have access to buffs like defender's ward, guided hand, and eye of menoth to name just a few. I would be hesitant in putting the steelheads anywhere except on the bottom of the list, maybe ahead of the stormguard simply due to their cost... Also - I wouldnt say steelheads are great when charging or charged, in those circumstances, they become not bad, but definately not better than the flameguard or houseguard, considering they share similar abilities.

I just think, overall, IFPs arent actually that good without that mini feat. Khador doesnt have issues with hitting stuff hard, so the IFPs sort of solve a problem that khador didnt have in the first place. Especially with access to buffs like battle lust and fury, I find that the higher POW of the IFPs just ends up being overkill in most of my games. I would love to see powerful charge (+2 MAT on charging), set defense, or ranked attacks in exchange for a little less POW on the weapon, maybe POW 11 or 12. The fact that they are also more expensive than almost everything on this list...with less abilities...just makes the situation worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - Malfred, the IFP mini gives them an advance and shieldwall order AFTER their activations end, so, their threat range does not increase. Also - the feat does not effect the UA at all. ALSO - The officer and standard dont even have shieldwall... God the more I talk about their lack of abilities, the more they suck... No wonder I always run Kayazy assassins...


Iron Fangs with Transference are a utility piece to knock down
things that need to be knocked down. And the way the mini-feat
works is you can choose your CMA attackers to get the feat
buff from evlad so that he's all buffed out, they pop some fools or
knock down some heavies, then they retreat or advance into Shield
Wall.

UA DOES benefit from shieldwall since it's an order the original
unit has.

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Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Why are Halberdiers good? 4/6 points cost, reach, Def 15 against charges, Mat 7 on the charge, they give Flank bonuses to Steelhead Cavalry, and if fielded with Stannis Brocker can both move and see through each other.

So....Damiano's feat turn you have, say, 4 Halberdiers left of your 10 which WILL be Death Marched......so they start off with a 3" advance for Vengeance and an attack at Mat 7 against anything nearby. Then a 9" charge with 2" of reach at Mat 9 POW 14. Then in come the Cavalry. Because the Halberdiers are there their opening attack on Backswing is Mat 9, Pow 14 with 4 dice of damage, their second is Mat 7 Pow 14 with 3 dice. Opponent's next turn he's looking at a wall of halberdiers with Def 15 against charge attacks at ARM 16 protecting your cavalry with their reach.....anyone who takes a free strike takes it at MAT 9 P+S 14 with 3 dice.

Did I mention Damiano can also give them Reform?

Plus....because they're so ridiculously cheap you can bung 20 in a list no bother. They die easilly enough but it's more about stopping ALL of them.....if even one is left one of those cavalry is getting the flank bonus.
   
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The other side of the internet

Malfred, you forgot to mention Karax + tyrant. It makes them a rather mobile shield wall that's immune to blasts and can stand back up to boot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 08:21:40


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RAGE

Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies 
   
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Thanks! Definitely a neat combo.

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St.Joseph MO

I say Temple Flameguard

They are 13/13

13/17 With shield wall

15/19 with Defenders Ward

16/19 with piper defense or Tough

Armor 23 on feat turn above, Cause Terror, +2 def vs the charge.

If i remember correctly i havent used my menoth in a month or two.

Not to forget covonent of menoth in the army making them immune to knockdown + Piper Tough

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 14:10:59


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Mercenaries


Menoth 
   
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I think its unrealistic to compare them to each other and see which is the best, as each unit has access to completely different "buffs" from their faction/warcaster/merc models changing how well they can perform or what their role is. For a pure tarpit TFG are by far the best like said above, but they honestly can't do much else. For an offensive punch IFP are insane with fury, let alone the numerous feats in khador, yet at the same time they can be extremely bricky (black dragon no knockdown and then iron flesh) and can even be both in the same match up if played with pButcher(feat + fury or their mini-feat + IF), let alone ternion clouds added in making them immune to most ranged. Then you get to the hybrids of off/def with steelheads and halberdiers who are both amazing, because they are similar to the IFP in their dual role. On the other far extreme is Stormguard with their offense punch, if they get there.

In a pure vacuum of ignoring buffs ret's halberdiers are by far the best, like no question. Vacuum Ret halb > IFP > SH > TFG > Stormguard. Add in buffs and ret's halbs become the 2nd worst, only the stormguard are worse imo. Due to faction buffs SH's are simply the best overall IMO as they can easily be put in any army and even outclass similar units in other factions.

Let's compare the SH's to the TFG with ALL the possible buffs.

TFG Defensively are at best 15/19, tough, no knockdown, +2 def if charged, reroll cmd, once a game minifeat for +4 armor
SH Defensively are at best 16/15, tough, no knockdown, immune to spells, +2 def if charged

I would gladly trade 3 armor for an extra def and spell immunity.

Offensively SH are just better since they can get pathfinder or magical weapons if needed, they also retain their 16/15 while TFG go down to 15/15 if charging.

You can then take SH and throw them in khador with valachev (if you really wanted to use him in this way) and get a 13-13 unit with zephyr and all the khador buffs for 2 pts i think less then the IFP full kit that are less survivable armor wise, but are way faster, have a way to charge strange angles even when stuck in combat(zephyr), can charge AFTER being charged the next turn(see zephyr) and hit roughly as hard for less points. I personally would never do this as you could get kayazy or WG who fullfil roughly the same roll, but its still an option.

Only cygnar (assault on infantry only) can honestly say their infantry is as useful as steelheads, but I would argue worse still as they cost more and have a lower defense, i believe its 12 vs 13, and hit just as hard on the charge.

In the end there is no best when you get down to it, it all depends on your list, what theme you are running, what else you are running, and how you want an infantry unit to run. If you want high armor, then IFP > SH. If you only have 6 points then TFG > SH. Running eSevy, TFG > SH even at 8 pts because eSev can make them spell immune also negating the biggest SH advantage. If you you are ret, you look at other factions and laugh at their infantry, then cry at the buffs their infantry can get compared to yours.

n the end it's all extremely dependent upon the list you want to run and the models you like to use.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/03 15:39:57


 
   
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Portland

MrChom wrote:Why are Halberdiers good? 4/6 points cost, reach, Def 15 against charges, Mat 7 on the charge, they give Flank bonuses to Steelhead Cavalry, and if fielded with Stannis Brocker can both move and see through each other.

So....Damiano's feat turn you have, say, 4 Halberdiers left of your 10 which WILL be Death Marched......so they start off with a 3" advance for Vengeance and an attack at Mat 7 against anything nearby. Then a 9" charge with 2" of reach at Mat 9 POW 14. Then in come the Cavalry. Because the Halberdiers are there their opening attack on Backswing is Mat 9, Pow 14 with 4 dice of damage, their second is Mat 7 Pow 14 with 3 dice. Opponent's next turn he's looking at a wall of halberdiers with Def 15 against charge attacks at ARM 16 protecting your cavalry with their reach.....anyone who takes a free strike takes it at MAT 9 P+S 14 with 3 dice.

Did I mention Damiano can also give them Reform?

Plus....because they're so ridiculously cheap you can bung 20 in a list no bother. They die easilly enough but it's more about stopping ALL of them.....if even one is left one of those cavalry is getting the flank bonus.

This about sums it up. I can't think of any merc caster other than Bart (who offers infantry nothing) where a unit of SH halberdiers and min unit of cav (12 point investment) won't 1- get at least one solid buff and 2- scare my opponent into spending an irrational amount of resources taking out a bunch of cheap models, unless 3- the SHs mow through them, in which case, next game will involve #2.



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Wraith





Black Dragons all the way, IMO.
   
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CT

spiralingcadaver wrote:
This about sums it up. I can't think of any merc caster other than Bart (who offers infantry nothing) where a unit of SH halberdiers and min unit of cav (12 point investment) won't 1- get at least one solid buff and 2- scare my opponent into spending an irrational amount of resources taking out a bunch of cheap models, unless 3- the SHs mow through them, in which case, next game will involve #2.


Heh, what happens when you run into pcaine and he feats down your entire army? 13/13 is pretty darn easy to kill with...just about anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - I havent seen any stats for the black dragons, are they any good?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/04 05:56:09


71 pts khador - 6 war casters
41 pts merc highborn - 3 warcasters 
   
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pcaine will take out most of the infantry discussed here disgustingly easilly without buffs I'm afraid....then again you rarely see pCaine at tournaments and if you do just take a jack or heavy infantry list.

Black Dragons....the unit is normal pikemen but the Minifeat changes to Iron Zeal (exactly like Flameguard) and they gain Precision Strike and Fearless losing Pathfinder along the way.
   
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Rockford, IL

Recently ran the Houseguard Halberdiers with the Riflemen and Ossyan.
They did fine as a speed bump.
It was the synergy with the Riflemen and caster that made them great.

Halberds engaged with Nihilators, so Riflemen CRA and "Whites of their Eyes" with Ossyan's Feat to clear out the Nihilators,
then the Halberds with Quicken (+2 Spd) were able to charge, and mini-feat, the second line, and butchered the rest of the Nihilators and Krea, but left Haakar with 1pt.
After they lost shield wall, they were fodder. Especially to the nastyness that was Haakar.

I lliked what they did, but I'm not sure they would make as much of an impact with a different list.

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KingKodo wrote:Heh, what happens when you run into pcaine and he feats down your entire army? 13/13 is pretty darn easy to kill with...just about anything.


Well, fortunately, I most frequently run them with pMagnus (where they sit pretty at 16/13, assuming no terrain to help them, and I tend to hug terrain if I want something to live), so I haven't ever had the pleasure of getting them mulched that quickly. Also, the problem, as MrChom said, isn't killing them, it's killing all of them. If one gets by, you've got a 5" wide bubble where their cav buddies will pretty reliably be taking out jacks and beasts, or obliterating anything lighter.

Also, what you're usually buying with 4/6 units isn't expertise (though I have had them take down warcasters and lights, unassisted), but a bunch of decent models, that, in my opinion, are overlooked because they're not spiffy, but come at better deal than most (definitely not all) 5/8's.

Theorymachine means very little when your opponents are afraid enough of your little green stick men to throw 20+ points at your 12, or give them wide berth. I'd argue that anyone who has played against someone who knows how to use SH's decently well will know what sort of threat they represent.

In any list with a half-decent buff, they may not be an auto-include, but they're something I consider, early on: Anyone with Blur? Yep. Cryx debuffs? Definitely. Iron Flesh? Steel Heads. Rock Wall? Probably. They may not be broken, but they're often my MVPs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/04 16:49:45




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