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So a few interesting rules questions for the new edition have caught my eye while making a Daemon's list.

1) How does feel no pain interact with eternal warrior? Feel no pain says it can not be taken when an unsaved wound inflicts instant death, but eternal warrior says that the model is immune to the effects of instant death. IMO it seems that to be inflicted with something, it must effect you.

2) When deepstriking do Flying Monstrous Creatures get to determine which "Mode" they are using?

3) Along the same lines, if a Flyer with Hover deepstrikes does it get to determine which mode it uses?

In response to 1, they would get no FNP from instant death causing wounds. The wounds still inflict instant death, but the eternal warrior is immune to the effects (ie, dying instantly).

1)You appear to be correct, but I'll let others argue that.
2)Yes
3)Yes, assuming it can choose between the two (not all of them can).

Erik, could you not say that another effect of instant death is ignoring feel no pain saves?

Right. A S8 wound on a T4 model would inflict instant death if the save was failed.
However, if the model had eternal warrior, it would NOT inflict instant death, so FNP is allowed.

Testify wrote:Right. A S8 wound on a T4 model would inflict instant death if the save was failed.
However, if the model had eternal warrior, it would NOT inflict instant death, so FNP is allowed.

No, it still inflicts instant death, the model is merely immune to instantly dying.

The question is, is ignoring FNP a stated effect of instant death, or a restriction on taking FNP?
My understanding is that FNP saves cannot be taken against wounds that inflict instant death, and as such, if a wound causes instant death, regardless of if the model is affected (killed) or not, FNP cannot be taken because the wound causes instant death. The wound still causes instant death, the model simply is not killed outright.

erick99 wrote:

Testify wrote:Right. A S8 wound on a T4 model would inflict instant death if the save was failed.
However, if the model had eternal warrior, it would NOT inflict instant death, so FNP is allowed.

No, it still inflicts instant death, the model is merely immune to instantly dying.

It inflicts instant death, but the model is immune to instant death. So it doesn't.

But FNP is not allowed against instant death wounds. Regardless of if the model is immune, the wound is still ID causing. Therefore, while the model is immune to its effects, FNP may still not be taken.

How can the wound be causing ID if the model is immune to it? It can't, therefore FNP is allowed.

The model is immune to its effects. It does not change what the wound does (inflict ID). Ignoring FNP is not an effect listed for ID, rather, FNP has the restriction that wounds that cause ID disallow FNP saves. So while the model ignores ID, FNP does not.

If a model is immune to instant death, then a wound cannot cause instant death.

pg 35 of BGB... FNP "cannot be made agaist unsaved Wounds that inflicts Instant Death".

same page... Eternal Warrior "is immune to the effects of instant Death".

You cannot inflict ID on EW due to it's immunity to the "ID Effect". Therefore, I'd argue that Eternal Warriors ALWAYS get FNP.

BTW... who has EW and FNP? Nurgle Daemons?

The model is immune to its effects. As in, the models does not suffer instant death, and is therefore not killed outright. Nowhere is ignoring FNP listed as an effect of ID. FNP not being taken against ID wounds is a restriction placed on FNP. Therefore, while you may ignore the effects of ID, the wound is still an ID wound, and FNP cannot be taken.

Meh... it's really a circular logic that can argued both ways...

But I believe RAW is that EW model still get FNP from ID wounds.... because once that model suffer's an unsaved wound... that's it... it's a unsaved wound (nothing there about ID).

So... you ignore the ID effect... it's not in the equation.

All that's left is "an unsaved wound" at that point.

That's when FNP test triggers.

It seems to come down to when EW is 'activated' in: (1) Immediately upon being wounded, or (2) As soon as the wound is unsaved (but before the model dies of ID).
In 1, the EW model takes an ID wound, EW removes ID, model fails save, takes FNP. In 2, Model takes ID wound, fails save on ID wound, ID negates FNP, model takes ID wound but is immune to the effects of ID (and therefore simply takes a normal wound).

whembly wrote:Meh... it's really a circular logic that can argued both ways...

Now we're getting somewhere!

The law says it is a crime to give someone deadly poison.

Someone gives you deadly poison.

You are a freak of nature and are immune to that poison.

They still gave you deadly poison. (they still go to jail)

A S8 weapons causes ID on a T4 model. FNP cannot be take if a wound would cause ID - a restriction on FNP, not on ID

THis is the exact same argument as 5th edition.

As for DSing....

Declaring what mode you are in does not alleviate the requirement to move 12"/18"

If you enter from board edge and 'declare' you are swooping, you still need to move 12"/18"

If you enter from DS and declare you are swooping, you still need to move 12". Since you can't; you have broken the rules, and cannot do that. Or a flyer can, but then it crashes.

coredump wrote:The law says it is a crime to give someone deadly poison.

Someone gives you deadly poison.

You are a freak of nature and are immune to that poison.

They still gave you deadly poison. (they still go to jail)

Are you immune to the poison, or the effects of the poison. Because that analogy seemingly implies that because you are a freak of nature, you are not harmed or in any way affected by the deadly poison. (Also, as you're immune to all effects [such as symptoms and death], how would you know you were poisoned?)

Here's an example: A wraithcannon rolls a 6, inflicting an instant death wound on SM Captain Lysander (in a Command Squad). Being AP2, he can only take his invulnerable save, which he fails. He is eternal warrior, so does he: 1) Take FNP, and a wound if he fails, 2) Take a wound, no FNP, or 3) No wound at all (As EW lets him ignor the effects of ID)?
Obviously, option 3 is ridiculous. So does Lysander get FNP, because EW fully negates every effect of ID, or does he take a wound as normal, no FNP, whereby the effect of ID is negated?

As I read it, ID ignoring FNP is an aspect of FNP, not an effect of ID. Therefore, as EW makes you immune to the effects of ID, and ignoring FNP is not an effect of ID, FNP is ignored and Lysander ignores the effects of ID (ie, he does not die outright, but rather takes a wound). Therefore, the answer is 2), because as ignoring FNP is not an effect of ID, Lysander is not immune to it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:A S8 weapons causes ID on a T4 model. FNP cannot be take if a wound would cause ID - a restriction on FNP, not on ID

THis is the exact same argument as 5th edition.

But the wound wouldn't cause ID since they have EW.

It does cause ID, but EW negates the effects. Ignoring FNP is not an effect of ID, and so is not negated by EW.

Testify wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:A S8 weapons causes ID on a T4 model. FNP cannot be take if a wound would cause ID - a restriction on FNP, not on ID

THis is the exact same argument as 5th edition.

But the wound wouldn't cause ID since they have EW.

It still inflicts ID on the target, the target just gets to ignore it.

Same, exact argumetn as 5th edition. FNP didnt work then, and it doesnt work now.

Lets put it this way:

The shooting (or assaulting) goes in this order:
[Key: Model 1 is attacking, Model 2 has FnP and EW]

Model 1 hits Model 2
Model 1's attack is double model 2's toughness, and successfuly wounds.
Model 2 fails the save, and takes a wound.
Normally the wound would be ID, but EW stops this.
FnP kicks in AFTER the wound is taken, and negates it when passed.

So because FnP is AFTER the wound is taken, and EW is used JUST AS the wound is taken, EW manages to stop ALL effects of ID, and FnP can be taken.

Wrakkar wrote:Lets put it this way:

The shooting (or assaulting) goes in this order:
[Key: Model 1 is attacking, Model 2 has FnP and EW]

Model 1 hits Model 2
Model 1's attack is double model 2's toughness, and successfuly wounds.
Model 2 fails the save, and takes a wound.
Normally the wound would be ID, but EW stops this.
FnP kicks in AFTER the wound is taken, and negates it when passed.

So because FnP is AFTER the wound is taken, and EW is used JUST AS the wound is taken, EW manages to stop ALL effects of ID, and FnP can be taken.

But negating FNP is not an effect of ID. So EW negating the effects of ID has no impact on FNP. The wound is still ID inflicting, and therefore, ignores FNP.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Testify wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:A S8 weapons causes ID on a T4 model. FNP cannot be take if a wound would cause ID - a restriction on FNP, not on ID

THis is the exact same argument as 5th edition.

But the wound wouldn't cause ID since they have EW.

It still inflicts ID on the target, the target just gets to ignore it.

If the target ignores ID, then ID is not inflicted.

The target ignores the effects of ID. Nowhere does it say the wound is no longer an ID wound, only that the effects are negated.

So you think a USR is more than its effect? That it has an existence outside of its effect within a logical ruleset?
This is getting a bit too philosophical for me.

The wording hasn't really changed from 5th ed. I'd say that you get no FnP, because the wound is still causing instant death, you just don't get dropped to 0 wounds thanks to EW.

For example: a grotesque with a flesh gauntlet slaps a GUO, the GUO doesn't get FnP because the flesh gauntlet causes ID, but also suffers no harm from the effects of ID, and only loses 1 wound.

1) EW negates the effects of ID. True.
2) The wound is still an 'ID inflicting wound', but the model is spared from the effects by EW. True.
3) FNP is restricted to wounds that do not inflict instant death. True.
4) ID negates FNP because FNP, not ID, says so. True.

Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that 5) As the effects of ID are negated by EW, and negating FNP is not an effect of ID, (but rather of FNP itself,) then ID negates FNP on all models, even Eternal Warriors.

As such, as 1, 3, and 4 are known to be true, 5 is also true, but only if 2 is true as well. If 2 can be disproved, than 5 will be disproved as well.

Pg 35, Feel No Pain
"Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death."

Pg.16, Instant Death
"If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack [Strength= 2xToughness or force weapon], it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty.

Pg. 38, Instant Death
"Unsaved wounds inflicted [by this rule] automatically inflict instant death."

Pg 35, Eternal Warrior
"Immune to the effects of instant death."

Therefore, ID is when the model is auto-killed by a wound, as per "reduced to 0 wounds". This is ignored by EW.
FnP can be taken.