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Having a bit of a debate with this. On page 423 the Psychic Shriek spell states that you roll 3d6, take away units leadership and inflict those wounds. Yet on page 69 it says that unless otherwise stated the witchfire has to roll to hit at BS level. With this skill is it the flat wounds of the spell, do you roll to hit the spell or do you roll to see if the wounds hit?

Roll to hit with Witchfire (BS of psyker).
Roll to wound with 3d6 - leadership.
Apply wounds.

Thanks. To me it read as if it was just roll to wound.

So if the psyker is a character, and rolls a 6; does precision strike let him allocate every wounds caused?

rulebook said that SUFFERS WOUND,

it is already wounded, so don't TO HIT ROLL &TO WOUND ROLL

Kararis wrote:rulebook said that SUFFERS WOUND,

it is already wounded, so don't TO HIT ROLL &TO WOUND ROLL

but a Witchfire power can't effect an enemy unit/model unless you have already rolled to hit, as per the witchfire rules.

I think Rogueeyes has this one correct.

Regarding precision shots, witchfire is otherwise described as shooting, so I think you would be entitled to use precision shots for any wounds from witchfire powers that you rolled a 6 to hit with.

Drunkspleen wrote:Regarding precision shots, witchfire is otherwise described as shooting, so I think you would be entitled to use precision shots for any wounds from witchfire powers that you rolled a 6 to hit with.

Makes focused witchfire a bit redundant, though.

lord_blackfang wrote:Makes focused witchfire a bit redundant, though.

well they are drastically more likely to get to pick their target, you have a 27% chance of getting a low enough Psychic Test, and then on top of that the 17% chance to roll a 6 to hit, for a net chance of almost 40%.

I would agree that they seem pretty mediocre in comparison because of their tendency to only inflict damage to one model of your choosing though, unlike the likes of Smite and Shriek which could be much more devastating when you get a precision shots roll.

What about precision strike template withfire, such as some found in Pyromancy?

Blaggard wrote:What about precision strike template withfire, such as some found in Pyromancy?

What is the problem with that? You don't roll to hit with a witchfire template (the witchfire rules tell you that) so there's no chance to roll precision shots even if the psyker is a character.


But back to the question of precision witchfire...there seems to be disconnect in the rules that doesn't make sense. The focused witchfire rules don't seem to notice that witchfire is already supposed to be rolling to hit, which means if it is done by a psyker that is a character (as most are) we now have two different (conflicting) mechanics in play simultaneous telling us when or if the psyker's player gets to choose the target model.

So the questions (that have no RAW answers) are:

1) Does Focused Witchfire really have to roll 'to hit' as the basic Witchfire rules seem to indicate?
2) If so, and the psyker is a character and he rolls a '6' to hit, are any and all wounds caused by the focused witchfire precision shots?
3) If so, how does this interact with the focused witchfire rule about the psyker getting to choose the target only if he passes his Psychic Test on a '5' or less?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Actually reading the 4th paragraph of the Witchfire rules on page 69 have led me to conclude that all the specialty types of Witchfire (Beam, focused witchfire, maelstrom, nova) are probably not supposed to have to roll to hit, although if that's the case it really is quite unclear which if any of the targeting restrictions for general witchfire (such as LOS) apply.

I think the focused witchfires you have to pass the Test and Pass the BS due to the wording of the second sentence of Focused Witchfire. This seems to read as you have 2 chances of targeting a single model. Would LoS influence either PS or Focused due to the Witchfire being treated as an assault shooting weapon?

yakface wrote:Actually reading the 4th paragraph of the Witchfire rules on page 69 have led me to conclude that all the specialty types of Witchfire (Beam, focused witchfire, maelstrom, nova) are probably not supposed to have to roll to hit, although if that's the case it really is quite unclear which if any of the targeting restrictions for general witchfire (such as LOS) apply.

Even if they didn't automatically inherit all the Witchfire rules, then modify them, which is the most reasonable way to handle it IMO, Focussed Witchfire still quite clearly states it follows ALL the normal rules for Witchfire.

What I find interesting is, Witchfire seems to make you follow its rules for anything called a psychic shooting attack in the codices, so it seems the roll to hit would now apply to a number of older Psychic powers, including ones that logic dictates should perhaps not be covered, such as Blood Lance.

It also says that unless the power states that it is a witchfire or beam or something, it isn't a witchfire/beam/whatever and keeps it's old rules.

What I find interesting in the bit about having possibly more powerful pyskers in the future. 3 Powers per model in a single turn from different schools/special powers it seems like it could go up to at least.

Drunkspleen wrote:
Even if they didn't automatically inherit all the Witchfire rules, then modify them, which is the most reasonable way to handle it IMO, Focussed Witchfire still quite clearly states it follows ALL the normal rules for Witchfire.

What I find interesting is, Witchfire seems to make you follow its rules for anything called a psychic shooting attack in the codices, so it seems the roll to hit would now apply to a number of older Psychic powers, including ones that logic dictates should perhaps not be covered, such as Blood Lance.

I agree they do say that, whereas the other sub-categories. I could definitely see people still wondering about the 'beam' weapons though (whether they need to roll to hit).

As for older psychic attacks in codexes, the big daddy ones are still FAQ'd, with Blood Lance and Jaws requiring no roll to hit for some strange reason, but Lash requiring one. And if you take Jaws and Blood Lance as sort of grandfather versions of beam, it makes the situation even less clear (because they don't require a 'to hit' roll for some reason).


So the big unanswerable questions out of all this that I think really need to be FAQ'd are:

Does focused witchfire require a roll 'to hit' and if so, and the psyker is a character and rolls a '6' to hit, how does the precision shots rule function with the focused witchfire rules for selecting a target model (assuming the power inflicts wounds, of course, because otherwise the precision shots rule has no impact).

Do 'beam' powers require a roll 'to hit' and can they hit units in combat if the first model crossed by the beam is not in combat.

yakface wrote: Do 'beam' powers require a roll 'to hit' and can they hit units in combat if the first model crossed by the beam is not in combat.

If you're adding to INAT, you should include friendly units in there (for clarification)

My take on the matter was that when the words "automatically hit" appear they override any need to roll to hit, whereas suffers a hit/wound, does not necessarily do so.

but I agree, the Beam is somewhat unclear on whether you need to roll to hit before you can start targeting points.

rigeld2 wrote:

yakface wrote: Do 'beam' powers require a roll 'to hit' and can they hit units in combat if the first model crossed by the beam is not in combat.

If you're adding to INAT, you should include friendly units in there (for clarification)

The beam weapon rules pretty clearly say they can hit friend or foe...I guess the question would be that since beam weapons now target a 'point' and then hit everything after that, it sure looks like even the first model hit by the beam is allowed to be a friendly model unless the psyker is joined to a unit and the rest of the unit is firing at an enemy unit (then the first model hit needs to be from that same unit)...which is kind of strange.

Its like, if the psyker is on his own he's totally cool about zapping his friends with his psychic laser, but then if he's hanging out in a squad they're like: 'no way that's not cool man', and he bows to their peer pressure.

The focused witchfire makes sense to me. You are attacking a unit, and have a 27% chance of hitting the exact person you want. If you are a character, you have another 17& chance to hit who you want. It just means that character psykers are better shots than normal psykers.


OTOH, it isn't just focused Witchfire that worries about Precision shots. Psy Shriek definitely needs a roll to hit. So if you roll a 6, can you now allocate all the wounds (maybe 8-10) as your character wants?

coredump wrote: Psy Shriek definitely needs a roll to hit. So if you roll a 6, can you now allocate all the wounds (maybe 8-10) as your character wants?

I can't see people being pleased to play it that way.

With perils of the warp being more dangerous (especially to Tsons armies with 6+ psykers), I don't understand why people would make someone role to hit with Shriek and focused witchfire powers outside of tournaments.

Clearly, gw has sentence issues.

Clearly.

Drunkspleen wrote:My take on the matter was that when the words "automatically hit" appear they override any need to roll to hit, whereas suffers a hit/wound, does not necessarily do so.

but I agree, the Beam is somewhat unclear on whether you need to roll to hit before you can start targeting points.

That would be my interpretation as well. The rule for witchfire's needing to roll would be the general rule. The more specific rules for Nova and Maelstrom witchfire powers state that hits are applied automatically. Automatic hits bypass the need to roll. Beam also states that models that are under the line are automatically hit. Beam is also very similar to JOTWW and Blood Lance in how hits are generated, both of which GW confirmed did not require a "to hit" roll. Conversely, Lash does not function at all like Beam, JOTWW or Blood Lance as you don't draw a line.



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A related question would be for models with a BS of 0, can they use Nova, Beam, Template, Blast, and Maelstrom Witchfire attacks that automatically hit or otherwise bypass the need to hit. The BRB states that a 0 stat has no ability in the field and the shooting to hit chart does not include an entry for BS 0. Not sure how meaningful that is for shooting attacks that auto hit? Unlike other stats, GW didn't spell out the consequence of having a BS of 0. Should we interpret a BS of 0 as meaning that a model with BS 0 can only run during its shooting phase?