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Today I attended Games Day Chicago and had a chance to chat with Phil Kelly himself. I mentioned to him my sadness at the lack of a power fist, as our anti-termie combat weapons are limited to the demiklaives. He started to ask me why I just didn't use a huskblade, but stopped himself mid-sentance. A few minutes later, he told me that a new FAQ was on the way. Finally GW has listened to our pleas and brought the feared terminator down a rung in the ladder of brokenness. Almost asked him about Chaos Marines, but decided not to. Would have loved to see his reaction though

Isn't there supposed to be a new set of FAQs mid August or so? The 1.0 FAQs seem like rules updates, while the likely 1.1 may see some balance changes with things like more specific weapon stats.

I am in love with this news.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that Mathew Ward said there would be updates before the end of the UK summer. Guess that means they are mostly done.

Hopefully this extends to everyone in regards to issues handling 2+ saves, Psykers, and flyers.

quilava1 wrote:Today I attended Games Day Chicago and had a chance to chat with Phil Kelly himself. I mentioned to him my sadness at the lack of a power fist, as our anti-termie combat weapons are limited to the demiklaives. He started to ask me why I just didn't use a huskblade, but stopped himself mid-sentance. A few minutes later, he told me that a new FAQ was on the way. Finally GW has listened to our pleas and brought the feared terminator down a rung in the ladder of brokenness. Almost asked him about Chaos Marines, but decided not to. Would have loved to see his reaction though

Down a rung? Most people haven't even played a game yet with/versus them. Exactly how many afternoons did termies ruin for you since June 30th? As for them being broken, at least it meshes a bit better with the fluff for them not to fear every guardsmen with a battery attached to his sword. I don't see how they could fix this with an FAQ unless they're planning on revamping the whole AP system less than 6 weeks after its debut.

Any word on us getting our models for our special characters and/or our missing bomber?

oh good, I'm always glad when armies aren't playable right out of the codex...oh wait.

Love you Gee Dubs.

They might be just removing/changing the invulnerable save.

I hope they address the primary failing of the previous round of FAQ, which is give an AP value to all the "special" close combat weapons.

Incubii should have AP 2 power weapons. Agonizers should be AP 2. It was an oversight on their part not to amend all of that.

Tronbot2600 wrote:oh good, I'm always glad when armies aren't playable right out of the codex...oh wait.

On the other hand... It does make some kind of twisted sense. Release a minimalist, generic FAQ for each army to get them by, then after a couple of months, after working out what other things you've missed, release more specific ones that deal with specific issues like this.

And if someone is daft enough to go out and by 6 Night Scythes before you give most armies flakk missiles, then it's extra pennies in the bank and the business people are pleased.

Again, I would like to stress twisted sense....

:/ unless a lot of armies are getting AP2 melee, I'm kind of annoyed. I thought there was a pretty good balance made from the strongest weapons striking last.

Don't DE have access to power axes, like most other armies? Sure, DE are fragile, but so are a lot of armies, and with lower WS.

There are a few special characters whose weapons are now AP3/ignore (or force re-roll) invulnerable (i.e. 1 specific armor category in the middle that they don't maul). I was willing to take the bizarre hit, if it was a structure/balance thing, but this is dumb, unless they've just changed their minds (which is okay, as long as limited to higher characters or by expense).


Re: termies, yes I've played them; no, they're not broken. They're just the scary melee monsters you'd expect from the fluff. Plasma/lance/las/melta still kills 'em good at range. It's just a tactical shift. (Though I've never felt 3+ SS were balanced, but that's another discussion, since that's been around for a while.)

edit: personally, I find DE bazapping termies at range, instead of risking getting their heads smushed in melee, to be more characterful, anyways...

edit 2: also, feeling like everyone's PWs got worse, and have suffered a loss of power (AP2 at initiative) but a gain in flexibility (variants with strengths and weaknesses... though I don't really get the power lance's upside) and character from a historical standpoint (axes do crack armor better but are slower; maces are generally stronger but aren't designed to crack armor, etc.)

The tactic for DE assault is to strike first, reduce your models, so we don't have to take 9000 wounds in one combat(it matters because it's terrifyingly easy to ID us), we paid for our high I by having low S and low T per assault standard. Paying for a power axe so we can be on par with an average marine(S4) but striking at I1 is kinda silly. And even then, we could only bring one power axe per unit, only our sarge upgrade or HQ could take power weapon.

Beside, do you know how much a huskblade cost? And how uncommon it is? It's one of our highest costing weapon that's only available to few of our HQs, it'd only make sense if that's on AP2 to make sense of the cost. It also runs on our S3, which would be S4 if we paid for drug and get that S+1 drug on 1/6 of the chance, or we paid for haemonculii and wracks/grots to get FC which would push us to S4 for one turn. And if we're really lucky, we could get S5 with FC and drug. Soultrap only comes into the equation after we've killed at least one MC/IC. There's a reason why agoniser was equally lovable for CC HQ, despite huskblade's ability to ID on wound.

I say, good news for our assault side! Now if they'd add rending to mandrakes to make them more attractive...

re: ¶1, AP2 makes them a lot better than "an average marine", and, if 2+ is the problem, this is an answer. I wouldn't kit every DE squad out with a power axe, but I wouldn't do the equivalent in other armies, either. Just saying it's a tool, not saying it's one everyone will use.

re: ¶2, I know they're rare, I don't know how expensive they are. My point was, I think rules should be consistent. Currently, virtually all AP2 melee weapons are strike last or on something large (MC/dread). I'd feel fine with them being AP2, as long as a few equivalently elite weapons in other armies are, too.

Mahu wrote:I hope they address the primary failing of the previous round of FAQ, which is give an AP value to all the "special" close combat weapons.

Incubii should have AP 2 power weapons. Agonizers should be AP 2. It was an oversight on their part not to amend all of that.

Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.

I think a lot of folks forget our AP 2 weaponry that we mount on our ravages and raiders. 36 inch range and 3 shots apiece for a disintragator cannon. it handles terminators extremely well, that is 9 shots coming from a ravager at that range.

It is also fluffy for the DE to avoid these slow, powerful units and get into stuff that their wyches can easily kill or kabalites can shoot to death. Get your pain tokens, let you vehicles soften them up a bit, kill them with your high attack number latter. I think people are stick on needing something in melee that can bypass the armor. We don't need that, we have ranged options and tons of attack values.

warboss wrote:

Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.

Glad someone else feels this way!

Termies aren't world enders, but, after 4* editions, are finally to a place where they fit with GW's fluff. Armies that rely on spamming power swords are hurt by this-- not to be callous, but, adapt to the times.

*3rd-6th have seen numerous attempts to make termies tough, from the original straight 2+ save, to 5++, to various iterations of silly storm shields, and finally the new power weapon abilities.. don't know about original terminators

I will also chime in towards keeping 2+ saves strong. There are too many things to blast them away in shooting. Termie armor should have something going for it. (also echoing the unbalancing points wise from storm shields) There should be few good melee options in 40k for a giant block of assault terminators, if any, which is why I've always chosen to shoot them down via volume of fire typically (especially when playing Dark Eldar).

Dark Eldar are spoiled for choices to take care of termie armor, even if Incubi stopped being a good/marginal tool for that. I felt in any case with the sheer amount of storm shields going about they were an awful choice to begin with (I always just poisoned attacked them regardless). The army can inflict as many wounds as any army in 40k, use that.

warboss wrote:

Mahu wrote:I hope they address the primary failing of the previous round of FAQ, which is give an AP value to all the "special" close combat weapons.

Incubii should have AP 2 power weapons. Agonizers should be AP 2. It was an oversight on their part not to amend all of that.

Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.

2+ saves are worth their points already, since the average power sword can't hurt them any more than a chainsword. However, they still need to be able to be taken down, otherwise whats the point of even playing? Shooting is always a nice way to get them (and almost exclusivly how IG gets them), but as DE lack in volume firepower (especially anti-tank/termie power), and termies have that 5++/4++/3++ invaul (depending on what type they are), then your looking at one, maybe two dead per shooting phase. Currently, if a DE unit is stuck in combat with termies, they lose, badly. A incubi squad can take a demi-klaive, but your looking at 1 or two dead termies a round while your expensive incubi squad is pounded into dust. Drazhar is the best bet we have, with both demi-klaives AND the only 2+ save in the army, but he is expensive and doesn't bring much to the table besides combat prowess.

as for modeling our power weapons as axes, it defeats the point of i6 if we strike a termie simal at s4. We are strike before you do to avoid retaliation, we don't have the armor, nor the durability to strike simal with anything besides other eldar. Thats why demonettes aren't the combat boons bloodletters are, because they strike simal with elder.

And just on a general note, DE aren't special cupcakes, Space Marines are special cupcakes with a power fist in each squad. IG are special cupcakes with their lascannons and Leman Russ Executioner (5 Plasma Cannon Shots, 5!). And Razorflails were never power weapons, termies always got their save against them. The FAQ will allow us to continue our assualting ways without worrying everytime a termie steps onto the field. Ever seen a shooting DE army? Not pretty.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

warboss wrote:

Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.

Glad someone else feels this way!

Termies aren't world enders, but, after 4* editions, are finally to a place where they fit with GW's fluff. Armies that rely on spamming power swords are hurt by this-- not to be callous, but, adapt to the times.

*3rd-6th have seen numerous attempts to make termies tough, from the original straight 2+ save, to 5++, to various iterations of silly storm shields, and finally the new power weapon abilities.. don't know about original terminators

Terminator armor never fit the fluff in terms of sustainability, even in 2nd. Its always been the case a few outlier options used gimmicks to disproportionally be tougher than the rest of them. Even now there is simply too much ap 2 in a d6 game to make them resilient in a way benefiting their story. Furthermore why isn't the outcry more towards banshees who typically are forced on termie duty far more than incubi?

Lokas wrote:Any word on us getting our models for our special characters and/or our missing bomber?

November on the bomber (thats the rumored date for flyers wave 2), unless they decide to release it earlier. Also rumors point to a tau flyer with rules released via white dwarf


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lazarian wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:

warboss wrote:

Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.

Glad someone else feels this way!

Termies aren't world enders, but, after 4* editions, are finally to a place where they fit with GW's fluff. Armies that rely on spamming power swords are hurt by this-- not to be callous, but, adapt to the times.

*3rd-6th have seen numerous attempts to make termies tough, from the original straight 2+ save, to 5++, to various iterations of silly storm shields, and finally the new power weapon abilities.. don't know about original terminators

Terminator armor never fit the fluff in terms of sustainability, even in 2nd. Its always been the case a few outlier options used gimmicks to disproportionally be tougher than the rest of them. Even now there is simply too much ap 2 in a d6 game to make them resilient in a way benefiting their story. Furthermore why isn't the outcry more towards banshees who typically are forced on termie duty far more than incubi?

because eldar have fire dragons (and alot more anti-termie then DE)

quilava1 wrote:

warboss wrote:

Mahu wrote:I hope they address the primary failing of the previous round of FAQ, which is give an AP value to all the "special" close combat weapons.

Incubii should have AP 2 power weapons. Agonizers should be AP 2. It was an oversight on their part not to amend all of that.

Out of curiosity, why should dark eldar be such special cupcakes? 2+ save units needed a boost to justify their points (excluding the anomaly that is the TH/SS at no price increase for the half of marine codicies that still get that) as they were simply too fragile before. Why should a barbed flail ignore the heaviest armor in the game? Either way, Dark Eldar are free to model their power weapons in whichever of the three flavors that now exist, just like every other race. They don't need a special boost any more than IG do. I don't see this as any type of oversight and sincerely hope that this rumor is complete crap.

2+ saves are worth their points already, since the average power sword can't hurt them any more than a chainsword. However, they still need to be able to be taken down, otherwise whats the point of even playing? Shooting is always a nice way to get them (and almost exclusivly how IG gets them), but as DE lack in volume firepower (especially anti-tank/termie power), and termies have that 5++/4++/3++ invaul (depending on what type they are), then your looking at one, maybe two dead per shooting phase. Currently, if a DE unit is stuck in combat with termies, they lose, badly. A incubi squad can take a demi-klaive, but your looking at 1 or two dead termies a round while your expensive incubi squad is pounded into dust. Drazhar is the best bet we have, with both demi-klaives AND the only 2+ save in the army, but he is expensive and doesn't bring much to the table besides combat prowess.

as for modeling our power weapons as axes, it defeats the point of i6 if we strike a termie simal at s4. We are strike before you do to avoid retaliation, we don't have the armor, nor the durability to strike simal with anything besides other eldar. Thats why demonettes aren't the combat boons bloodletters are, because they strike simal with elder.

And just on a general note, DE aren't special cupcakes, Space Marines are special cupcakes with a power fist in each squad. IG are special cupcakes with their lascannons and Leman Russ Executioner (5 Plasma Cannon Shots, 5!). And Razorflails were never power weapons, termies always got their save against them. The FAQ will allow us to continue our assualting ways without worrying everytime a termie steps onto the field. Ever seen a shooting DE army? Not pretty.

2+ saves are not worth their points, unless your counting on IC in 6ed or chaos termies who are fairly dirt cheap. Storm Shield termies are a significant bargain though since they bypass ap2 weapons quite well. You also seem to miss the 'special cupcake' comment. Every army had power weapon nerfs, even lightning claw termies and GK pallies. Its a blanket correction and DE shouldn't feel upset or disproportionally put upon for having to adjust.


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quilava1 wrote:

because eldar have fire dragons (and alot more anti-termie then DE)

Fire dragons are counter productive against storm shield termies, which is the majority opponent in this department. DE have 12 shot venoms flying around whittling down terminator armor much more efficiently.

spiralingcadaver wrote:re: ¶1, AP2 makes them a lot better than "an average marine", and, if 2+ is the problem, this is an answer. I wouldn't kit every DE squad out with a power axe, but I wouldn't do the equivalent in other armies, either. Just saying it's a tool, not saying it's one everyone will use.

re: ¶2, I know they're rare, I don't know how expensive they are. My point was, I think rules should be consistent. Currently, virtually all AP2 melee weapons are strike last or on something large (MC/dread). I'd feel fine with them being AP2, as long as a few equivalently elite weapons in other armies are, too.

1) I just meant that power axes don't benefit DE as much as it does for other armies. Our speed is our advantage, we paid for our high initiative by having pathetic S and T, taking that away will just make us subpar marine.

2) It's not consistent though, if you let a bunch of warscythe(S+2 AP2 I user) necron get close to your assault termies, they could possibly beat you in combat. And they can bring almost as many of them as an average marine army, not to mention they aren't character, so you can't challenge to reduce the wound count. A primarily shooting army having 1 of the best combat options against termies, but an army that has 70% of the codex made for assault has absolutely terrible AP2 options? How is that balanced? I can't tell you how much a huskblade cost(per the rules, I think), but it is the most expensive combat option we could take, and it's only available to archon and haemonculus. Archon with huskblade would be quite terrifying WS7 I7, but deniable with challenges, and we could only field 2 archons per FoC. We can get upward to 6 haemy per FoC, but their WS4 I4 attacks, no 2++ SF and combat drugs, they'll really struggle to do much damage before you brutally murder them.

So really, you're crying foul because we can field a few characters we paid premium price for to have AP2 5+ to wound(usually) ID weapon? It honestly ain't gonna break the game any more than terminators being absolutely invincible in combat. Trust me, it's a much needed comfort for our assault side, but won't really murder your beloved termies in seconds... Afterall, we'd much rather just direct a load of darklight on your termies instead.

quilava1 wrote:as DE lack in volume firepower (especially anti-tank/termie power)

A raider squad can put out 4 S8/AP2/Lance. I can't think of many troops choices that can manage that.

Currently, if a DE unit is stuck in combat with termies, they lose, badly.

which is pointless to argue, because it's exactly what both sides agree on: the merit of this is the contention.

Drazhar is the best bet we have, with both demi-klaives AND the only 2+ save in the army, but he is expensive and doesn't bring much to the table besides combat prowess.

Yes. There are a ton of expensive melee characters who just do melee. Thank you for pointing that out.

as for modeling our power weapons as axes, it defeats the point of i6 if we strike a termie simal at s4.

Yep. You need to make a sacrifice to deal with certain adversaries. Scary!

Space Marines are special cupcakes with a power fist in each squad. IG are special cupcakes with their lascannons and Leman Russ Executioner (5 Plasma Cannon Shots, 5!).

Woe is DE. The grass is always greener, etc. etc. Those options are expensive, which makes them a choice.

Marines have higher than avg. initiative and strike simul with other marines (among others). Do you take a power sword and deal with 3+ saves, or do you risk being slower than your opponents' power swords, and take a power fist or power axe, to deal with things that laugh off power swords? What about noise marines with their I5? Which weapon do they take? Yep. an objectively easier/better decision than DE.

2+ saves are too fragile?


All I hear when people say that is foot stamping and 'BUT I WANT MY CLOSE COMBAT SPECIALISTS TO BE UNBEATABLE, NOBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO KILL THEEEEEM'

Agonisers and Huskblades should absolutely be AP 2. While I won't disagree that 2+ saves weren't worth their points in 5th, due to every power weapon being AP 2, these are new days. It's rare few weapons that can ignore 2+ saves, and you know what, that's okay. I'm not saying that every weapon should ignore 2+ saves anymore, just that the weapons we pay a premium for over other power weapons should. It's pretty simple logic. As it stands right now, our close combat specialists, no matter how cheap, how expensive, how equipped, how not equipped will lose to anything with a 2+ save. No matter what. 200 points of Wyches, Incubi, Grotesques, Wracks, Mandrakes, everything save for Harlequins will lose to terminators. Plain and simple.

As for 'OH JUST TAKE POWER AXES, MARINES HAVE TO TAKE THEM TO DEAL WITH TERMINATORS, WHAT MAKES YOU SO SPECIAL!?'

Our toughness 3 and 6+ save. Marines have an extra pip of toughness and the second best armor save in the game to survive until they swing that axe. We have nothing of the sort. Initiative is our defense. We swing first because if we don't, we die. The axe is a non-option. If a marine takes an axe against a terminator, he's got a good chance of surviving. If a wych takes an axe against a terminator, she dies. If she doesn't take the axe, she dies. That's bs. Plain and simple. Are you honestly so afraid of one model that can deny your armor save? That can be challenged out of a unit? That can be mowed down en masse by overwatch?

We're not asking for an instawin button. We're asking for a fighting chance. That's not unreasonable. Stop pretending it is, just because it comes at your expense.

I'm not sure how getting an anti termy power weapon is newly helpful in an army that can't make it into combat due to overwatch (the actual thing making assault based DEldar uncompetitive).

Baronyu wrote:1) I just meant that power axes don't benefit DE as much as it does for other armies. Our speed is our advantage, we paid for our high initiative by having pathetic S and T, taking that away will just make us subpar marine.

I agree with the first part, I just feel that it's a valid option. Re: the second, still not seeing what you mean.

2) It's not consistent though, if you let a bunch of warscythe(S+2 AP2 I user) necron get close to your assault termies, they could possibly beat you in combat. And they can bring almost as many of them as an average marine army, not to mention they aren't character, so you can't challenge to reduce the wound count. A primarily shooting army having 1 of the best combat options against termies, but an army that has 70% of the codex made for assault has absolutely terrible AP2 options? How is that balanced?

A fair point, though I don't know how much they cost, nor how capable they are of using them. Haven't played as/against necrons since the new codex.

I can't tell you how much a huskblade cost(per the rules, I think), but it is the most expensive combat option we could take, and it's only available to archon and haemonculus. Archon with huskblade would be quite terrifying WS7 I7, but deniable with challenges, and we could only field 2 archons per FoC. We can get upward to 6 haemy per FoC, but their WS4 I4 attacks, no 2++ SF and combat drugs, they'll really struggle to do much damage before you brutally murder them. So really, you're crying foul because we can field a few characters we paid premium price for to have AP2 5+ to wound(usually) ID weapon?

I think we're in agreement... mostly. I feel like no-I1 AP2 weapons should be expensive and rare (but purchasable), but my feeling is that it should be slightly more accessible, but not within a single codex. For instance, Relic Blades for marines seem like they would also be a shoe-in for AP2 status (though possibly more expensive because of it-- don't remember their cost).

It honestly ain't gonna break the game any more than terminators being absolutely invincible in combat. Trust me, it's a much needed comfort for our assault side, but won't really murder your beloved termies in seconds... Afterall, we'd much rather just direct a load of darklight on your termies instead.

Agreed. Even if the rumors aren't true, I'd be happy to have my termies blasted by your scary alien tech. (In the abstract. Probably, in the moment, I wouldn't be as happy about it .)

Don't go hitting on DE just because you don't play them. Haven't YOU people ever wished that your army would get something? Power Axes and Demi-Klaives are are only termie melee options in 6th, one which is counter productive, the other doesn't even have a model and comes in units of expensive guys. Lightning claws nerfed? They can take power fists or thunder hammers. GK termies nerfed? Not really with a daemon hammer and each squad and a 2+ save to boot. DE agonsier nerfed? Shift to shooting? Come on!

quilava1 wrote:Don't go hitting on DE just because you don't play them. Haven't YOU people ever wished that your army would get something? Power Axes and Demi-Klaives are are only termie melee options in 6th, one which is counter productive, the other doesn't even have a model and comes in units of expensive guys. Lightning claws nerfed? They can take power fists or thunder hammers. GK termies nerfed? Not really with a daemon hammer and each squad and a 2+ save to boot. DE agonsier nerfed? Shift to shooting? Come on!

Well, DE are a primarily shooting/mobility army and shooting got buffed in 6th, so there ya go. You can put enough darklight and splinter fire down to kill Terminators while you run circles around them.

Lokas wrote:2+ saves are too fragile?


All I hear when people say that is foot stamping and 'BUT I WANT MY CLOSE COMBAT SPECIALISTS TO BE UNBEATABLE, NOBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO KILL THEEEEEM'

Agonisers and Huskblades should absolutely be AP 2. While I won't disagree that 2+ saves weren't worth their points in 5th, due to every power weapon being AP 2, these are new days. It's rare few weapons that can ignore 2+ saves, and you know what, that's okay. I'm not saying that every weapon should ignore 2+ saves anymore, just that the weapons we pay a premium for over other power weapons should. It's pretty simple logic. As it stands right now, our close combat specialists, no matter how cheap, how expensive, how equipped, how not equipped will lose to anything with a 2+ save. No matter what. 200 points of Wyches, Incubi, Grotesques, Wracks, Mandrakes, everything save for Harlequins will lose to terminators. Plain and simple.

As for 'OH JUST TAKE POWER AXES, MARINES HAVE TO TAKE THEM TO DEAL WITH TERMINATORS, WHAT MAKES YOU SO SPECIAL!?'

Our toughness 3 and 6+ save. Marines have an extra pip of toughness and the second best armor save in the game to survive until they swing that axe. We have nothing of the sort. Initiative is our defense. We swing first because if we don't, we die. The axe is a non-option. If a marine takes an axe against a terminator, he's got a good chance of surviving. If a wych takes an axe against a terminator, she dies. If she doesn't take the axe, she dies. That's bs. Plain and simple. Are you honestly so afraid of one model that can deny your armor save? That can be challenged out of a unit? That can be mowed down en masse by overwatch?

We're not asking for an instawin button. We're asking for a fighting chance. That's not unreasonable. Stop pretending it is, just because it comes at your expense.

+10 this.

Having huskblade AP2 ain't gonna change that much, we still have to suffer through overwatch and challenges denying our huskblade attacks on the entire squad, so it isn't gonna push us into the new ultra autowin assault army automatically.

Not sure about the agoniser being AP2 though, may be I've already converted my mindset that I'm gonna use my assault units to take care of 3+ units and leave 2+ to darklights.... But I wouldn't say 'no' if agoniser does become AP2!

So may be +9.8 this...?

@spiralingcadaver

Read Lokas's post, he explained it better than I did.

Basically, our durability is still poop, if you look at the grand scheme of things, even if our rare few HQ can bring in an high I AP2 weapon, you're still gonna run the usual anti-DE tactic: Shoot us down before we get to you, which is easy because we're still DE. Take out our raiders, our huskblade archon is standing in the open with an unit of 6+ save(usually with FNP, deniable by anything S6, and S6 or above guns are easy to come by for most armies). Our archon gets into CC, you lose 1 unit of termies, the rest of your army is free to destroy us just the same, and after that combat, the archon cc unit will be standing in the open.

You've been thinking in a vacuum, it really isn't that scary. It just gives us DE an edge in CC, because no one want to play with/against the boring WAAC darklightspam list.

This thread is laughable...

Huskblades and Agonizers are very expensive wargear options. Incubi were easily one of the worst choices in the elites sections and likely still will be even if they get AP2 again.

From the OP, this is all that will change and will have no real impact on anything.