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I had a quick question about 6th edition wound allocation when you have different armor saves in the same squad.

When all the armor saves are the same, you roll saves first, and then allocate all the wounds one at a time on the models that are closest to the enemy until all the wounds are gone.

When some of the armor saves are different, you allocate the wounds one at a time to the model that's closest to the enemy unit until all the saves are made.

So basically, if I have Lysander in a squad of Tac Marines and he's the model that's closest to the enemy, I get to use his 2+/3++ save on all the wounds until he's dead or his armor has soaked up all the shots?

wtwlf123 wrote:I had a quick question about 6th edition wound allocation when you have different armor saves in the same squad.

When all the armor saves are the same, you roll saves first, and then allocate all the wounds one at a time on the models that are closest to the enemy until all the wounds are gone.

Yes.

When some of the armor saves are different, you allocate the wounds one at a time to the model that's closest to the enemy unit until all the saves are made.

Yes.

So basically, if I have Lysander in a squad of Tac Marines and he's the unit that's closest to the enemy, I get to use his 2+/3++ save on all the wounds until he's dead or his armor has soaked up all the shots?

Yes, except replace the word unit with model.

Also, you can shuffle some of his wounds onto the squad using Look Out Sir!.

That's how I read it. Thanks for the clarification.

Cheers.

I forget who said it in another thread, but imagine Captain America leading the charge for a bunch of GIs. That's basically what's going down.

This should get pinned or something. The most common set questions by far.

It's something that we addressed in our recent podcast episode. Funny thing is, we had a 20 minute discussion before the episode to make sure that we were on the same page. When that discussion started, we definitely weren't.

Look Out Sir! is a great rule, but you have to remember that in a situation where you have an IC or Character with FNP and you make a successful LOS roll, they won't get to make that FNP roll because they aren't taking the wound. That seems obvious, but it's come up in 6th edition games.

Podcast? wanna pm me a link?

Am I right in saying that if you have mixed saves, (e.g. squad of Tac. Marines and Lysander), and Lysander is closest you have to roll one dice at a time to see if they wound or not, so that remaining wounds can be made on the squad if Lysander dies?

No you do LOS first. Then the saves in a lysander + tactical squad situation.

liturgies of blood wrote:No you do LOS first. Then the saves in a lysander + tactical squad situation.

Actually he was not asking about Look Out Sir, but you are correct.

Tension wrote:Am I right in saying that if you have mixed saves, (e.g. squad of Tac. Marines and Lysander), and Lysander is closest you have to roll one dice at a time to see if they wound or not, so that remaining wounds can be made on the squad if Lysander dies?

Yes you are correct (Though you can roll as many dice as Lysander has wounds remaining to speed the process up a bit).

By remember if you take saves with Lysander any wounds have to stick with him, since you can not use Look Out Sir in a mixed save unit after you roll armor saves.

As liturgies of blood said you need to use Look Out Sir before you roll any armor saves in a mixed save unit.

liturgies of blood wrote:No you do LOS first. Then the saves in a lysander + tactical squad situation.

DeathReaper wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:No you do LOS first. Then the saves in a lysander + tactical squad situation.

Actually he was not asking about Look Out Sir, but you are correct.

Tension wrote:Am I right in saying that if you have mixed saves, (e.g. squad of Tac. Marines and Lysander), and Lysander is closest you have to roll one dice at a time to see if they wound or not, so that remaining wounds can be made on the squad if Lysander dies?

Yes you are correct (Though you can roll as many dice as Lysander has wounds remaining to speed the process up a bit).

By remember if you take saves with Lysander any wounds have to stick with him, since you can not use Look Out Sir in a mixed save unit after you roll armor saves.

As liturgies of blood said you need to use Look Out Sir before you roll any armor saves in a mixed save unit.

Awesome, thanks to both of you

wtwlf123 wrote:I had a quick question about 6th edition wound allocation when you have different armor saves in the same squad.

When all the armor saves are the same, you roll saves first, and then allocate all the wounds one at a time on the models that are closest to the enemy until all the wounds are gone.

When some of the armor saves are different, you allocate the wounds one at a time to the model that's closest to the enemy unit until all the saves are made.

So basically, if I have Lysander in a squad of Tac Marines and he's the model that's closest to the enemy, I get to use his 2+/3++ save on all the wounds until he's dead or his armor has soaked up all the shots?

so much confusion on this.

Armour saves the same - roll all saves, allocated unsaved unit model dies...then next closest...ect. You are coorect.

Mixed saves - allocate first closest to furthest up to available amount of wounds on each model, do LOS, then take saves.

Yesterday I saw someone with an IC with a 2+ in front of the squad take like 12 2+ saves on him, the ones he failed he did a LOS on and put them on the 3+ behind the IC to see who died. This is incorrect. An IC in front with a better save then the rest does act like a filter for wound. People WANT to play it this way because they want to try to emulate the wound allocation nonsense from 5th ed...not the way it works.

almostreal wrote:Yesterday I saw someone with an IC with a 2+ in front of the squad take like 12 2+ saves on him, the ones he failed he did a LOS on and put them on the 3+ behind the IC to see who died. This is incorrect. An IC in front with a better save then the rest does act like a filter for wound. People WANT to play it this way because they want to try to emulate the wound allocation nonsense from 5th ed...not the way it works.

Huh? But this *is* how it works. Filthy and effective, but that's how it goes. Like pretre said, Cap't America in front ... with the occasional fail handed off to a sucker via LOS.

Here's a visual:





The plague marines shoot and rack up some plasmagun and bolter wounds. The T-Armored IC is going to start emptying the 'wound pool' with his 2+. If he does fail a Save, a chump will soak it up on a LOS. The Cap't will continue to do so until the wound pool is empty or the dice fail him on a Save and subsequent failed LOS and he dies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:No you do LOS first. Then the saves in a lysander + tactical squad situation.

Actually he was not asking about Look Out Sir, but you are correct.

Tension wrote:Am I right in saying that if you have mixed saves, (e.g. squad of Tac. Marines and Lysander), and Lysander is closest you have to roll one dice at a time to see if they wound or not, so that remaining wounds can be made on the squad if Lysander dies?

Yes you are correct (Though you can roll as many dice as Lysander has wounds remaining to speed the process up a bit).

By remember if you take saves with Lysander any wounds have to stick with him, since you can not use Look Out Sir in a mixed save unit after you roll armor saves.

As liturgies of blood said you need to use Look Out Sir before you roll any armor saves in a mixed save unit.

Page Citation, DR?

Lad just read the LOS rules. You are wrong. Parse page 15's mixed saves with page 16's LOS. The "wound (or unsaved wound)" is the key part to what we are saying.

liturgies of blood wrote:Lad just read the LOS rules. You are wrong. Parse page 15's mixed saves with page 16's LOS. The "wound (or unsaved wound)" is the key part to what we are saying.

As a teacher, I know that telling someone, "Just read it" is royally unhelpful. Directions need to be explained.

While writing that post, and immediately after, I read and re-read that paragraph, and page 15, too. And I don't see (*re-reads it now. Nope, still not seeing a 'mix armor and LOS' caveat*) where it says that the mixed armor save means LOS has to happen before the Save Throw.

I'm very happy to have this pointed out/explained to me and to be assured that the T-Armored Tank with LOS is something that is illegal (the LOS being the part!).

P16 tells you that you LOS! when a wound or unsaved wound is allocated

P15 tells you that, when you have Mixed Saves you allocate Wounds THEN roll saves

So if you have a 2+ save IC in front with a 3+ unit behind, you allocat e the Wound, at this point you try for LOS! as this is the point at which a Wound has been allocated - before saves are rolled.

"when a wound (or unsaved wound) is ALLOCATED to one of your characters..."

Allocation for mixed saves is before rolling saves. If you roll the save, you are after allocation.

edit: stupid sneaky ninja

Okay guys, gimme a couple minutes to write up an example:


As in the picture above, a Captain in T-Armor is in front. He gets shot up.

Sequence:

1. Start emptying wound pool of 2 plasma wounds and 4 bolter wounds.
a. Chaos Player says, 'roll the AP2s first'
b. SM player rolls an Invuln. Makes it.
c. SM player rolls another Invuln, but it fails.
c1 LOS is rolled (successfully) and a chump dies. If LOS failed, Cap't suffers a wound.
d. Captain continues rolling the bolter wounds.

Are you guys saying that step c1 *has* to take place before the Cap't rolls his attempt to save? If so, great. But I'm still not finding where it specifies that on pages 15 and 16.

Fine, you allocate wounds. When wounds are allocated you can make an LOS roll.
You allocate wounds after taking saves in a unit with all one armour save, ie: in a 10 man GH squad with a WG where all are in power armour all saves are at the same time and remove the models until you get to the WG. When you get to him you may make LOS until he dies or the wound pool is exhausted.

In mixed saves you allocate before taking saves. Hence the LOS happens before the save is taken.

Also as someone that has taught adults you need to make people do the work themselves sometimes so they 1) remember having to look it up and are more likely to remember where the answer is if not what it is 2) don't get lasy and expect answers to be handed to them.

Follow page 15 for mixed saves, it tells you that you allocate wounding-hits (to make it clear!) to models, THEN you roll saves

So you have allocated a save *before* rolling to wound, at this point.

LOS! on page 16 tells you that you try for LOS! when a Wound, or unsaved wound, is *allocated*.

There is no further allocation, so you LOS! BEFORE rolling saves, because otherwise you cannot LOS! at all.

liturgies of blood wrote:Also as someone that has taught adults you need to make people do the work themselves sometimes so they 1) remember having to look it up and are more likely to remember where the answer is if not what it is 2) don't get lasy and expect answers to be handed to them.

You teach? Cool. Then you know just how blind some people can be when the answer is right there, or when someone reads the instructions, they still do it wrong.

Also, we are examining one of the worst written technical instruction manuals in the english language. I've baby-crib instructions that make more sense.

13 years with LAUSD has shown me that the teachers themselves will screw up during training, let alone 9 through 14 year olds. And since I have 'done the work on my own' so-to-speak, and I've got it wrong, instructing me to re-read it does no good.

But let's leave off educational theory and stick to plastic spacemen.

Brothererekose wrote:Okay guys, gimme a couple minutes to write up an example:


As in the picture above, a Captain in T-Armor is in front. He gets shot up.

Sequence:

1. Start emptying wound pool of 2 plasma wounds and 4 bolter wounds.
a. Chaos Player says, 'roll the AP2s first'
b. SM player rolls an Invuln. Makes it.
c. SM player rolls another Invuln, but it fails.
c1 LOS is rolled (successfully) and a chump dies. If LOS failed, Cap't suffers a wound.
d. Captain continues rolling the bolter wounds.

Are you guys saying that step c1 *has* to take place before the Cap't rolls his attempt to save? If so, great. But I'm still not finding where it specifies that on pages 15 and 16.

As per the posts above yours (edit: and indeed below yours as well now!), the LOS is done at the point of wound allocation (as cleary stated in the LOS section on pg16), whether it is a saved or unsaved wound. So the moment you decide the T-armor guy in front has a wound allocated to him you make the LOS (if you want). once you roll his save he has gone beyond the point of allocation and cannot make a LOS anymore.

Brothererekose wrote:
1. Start emptying wound pool of 2 plasma wounds and 4 bolter wounds.
a. Chaos Player says, 'roll the AP2s first'
b. SM player rolls an Invuln. Makes it.
c. SM player rolls another Invuln, but it fails.
c1 LOS is rolled (successfully) and a chump dies. If LOS failed, Cap't suffers a wound.
d. Captain continues rolling the bolter wounds.

Are you guys saying that step c1 *has* to take place before the Cap't rolls his attempt to save? If so, great. But I'm still not finding where it specifies that on pages 15 and 16.

So the terminator has a 4++ and the marines have no save against the plasma, that is a mixed save unit. So it is still a case of LOS then make saves(if any).
The mixed wounds section tells you to go model by model, allocating and saving for each model until they die. Now you are either trolling or just willfully ignoring our explanations.

If you have 10 models, 9 of which can save on a 4+ and 1 of which can save on a 3+, then that is mixed saves by definition.

Armour, invul or cover -it makes no odds.

puree wrote:once you roll his save he has gone beyond the point of allocation and cannot make a LOS anymore.

Okay, I understand. I'd just like the citation on why this is.

And thanks for being patient guys! I might just have to bring this to the FLGS and be able to explain very clearly.

You get to LOS! when you allocate a wound, or unsaved wound

When you have mixed saves, thge *allocation* is Wounds, before saves. Ther eis no further allocation step past this, meaning if you pass up LOS! here, and roll saves, you dont get another allocation meaning no change to LOS!

Brothererekose wrote:

puree wrote:once you roll his save he has gone beyond the point of allocation and cannot make a LOS anymore.

Okay, I understand. I'd just like the citation on why this is.

And thanks for being patient guys! I might just have to bring this to the FLGS and be able to explain very clearly.

Page 16, 1st sentence in LOS paragraph. "when a wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated....."

Page 15, Mixed saves section, Allocate wounds paragraph, "First, allocate a wound from the wounds pool to the enemy model closest to the firing gun."

That is the citation.

Oh, wait, got it! Got iT!

You silly guys ... Page 16, bullet #2, third line, in LOS:

" ... and resolve the Wound against them instead." that is, resolve the wound against the chump who stepped in front of the plasma, so the Cap't *can't* use his armor ... The word 'resolve the wound' being key. liturgies of blood, neither of your citations really nails it like the above.

Sheesh.
And props to you, liturgies of blood. Yes, I found it on my own ... I think that doesn't owe to your teaching style so much as my own determination!

j/k
Cheers all!