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We appear to be on at least our third "FNP vs X" poll, so I figured I'd throw up a poll to see what peoples opinions are. Now, I feel RAW have been done to death and I personally come down on the side that anything with some sort of qualifier in the rules (Such as ES stating it is done "immediately") would go before FNP, and if FNP is passed then the effect remains, you just don't lose a wound, unless the effect is some kind of ID, then you still just die anyway.

The alternative argument appears to be that FNP is required to determine if something actually is an unsaved wound, even though it triggers on unsaved wounds, same as the other effects.

So for the purposes of this I am purely interested in games as played, to get an impression of what most peoples expectations are.

For RAW argument references;

FNP vs Entropic Strike.
FNP vs Tyranid Boneswords.
FNP vs Dark Eldar Hexrifle.

EDIT: Forgot the "players turn decides the order", so added that.

It may only add fuel to the fire but, we called GW and also talked to our Local GW guy and both decided that Tyranid Boneswords came BEFORE FNP. While calling in is never a set in stone thing, our local GW guy did have a great reason as to why he thought the Boneswords leadership roll would come first.

Basically he said FNP is supposed to be something taking shots to the arms and legs and still fighting on, as per a "Rambo" or "Die Hard", but a Bonesword would simply cut you in half.

As far as I'm concerned the TWO GW sources we've talked to have agreed that the "im·me·di·ate·ly" in the Codex for the Nids means it comes BEFORE FNP.


Thanks
Dan

There really should be a third option "Other, please explain in your post" as that is what I would choose.

My take on this is that for weapons that have the potential of causing ID (i.e. Force weapons), you would need to go with the conflicting rules and the current player whose turn it is decides the order.

For other effects, such as the Hexrifle and Entropic Strike, however, FNP must go first as otherwise you are left with a paradox.

I get the RAW standard for this forum, but to me, RAI makes FNP go last, so that's how I play it.

FNP goes first in all cases. I've posted enough as to why I see it that way.

As above.

You can only follow the directive in FNP if you either roll FNP first or discount the other roll entirely if you pass FNP

Except you are breaking the exceptional rule by rolling FnP first in the opposing players turn. Not to mention that you are breaking FnP rules when you use it against wounds that are found to cause instant death. So you shouldn't be able to roll it until you know the attack is causing instant death or not.

Break 1 rule or 2.

So roll FNP second, but if you pass the thing you rolled for first will have no effect, because FNP turns it into a saved wound.

First off, a poll can't be made into rules, 40k doesn't work like fox news.

As for how it works, FNP always comes before anything else.

juraigamer wrote:First off, a poll can't be made into rules, 40k doesn't work like fox news.

As for how it works, FNP always comes before anything else.

No, but seeing as how the poll is roughly equal, or at least more weighted towards FNP not always coming first, just maybe the RAW argument isn't as cast iron as you'd like to claim it is, therefore a poll is pretty much the best way to get a rough idea of this communities expectations when actually playing the game?

juraigamer wrote:First off, a poll can't be made into rules, 40k doesn't work like fox news.

As for how it works, FNP always comes before anything else.

How so? The end result does not go before the Exceptional Rule that state when two rules tell you to do something at the same time the active player chooses the order. My rule says pass a test or die, yours says it becomes saved. They go at the same time so in my turn I can choose to make your FnP fail because it is instant death at that point, in your turn it works the way you are saying it works. It just, by the rules, does not always work the way you say it does.

FNP does not always come first. However it makes the most sense and least argument of any other options.

I refuse to vote this poll, as it does not adequately cover my belief on order of operations regarding FNP.

Happyjew wrote:I refuse to vote this poll, as it does not adequately cover my belief on order of operations regarding FNP.

What is your belief?

I already stated my stance on this topic in my first post. Basically if the weapon can cause ID (i.e. Force weapons or boeswords), player chooses order. Otherwise, FNP goes first.

If it causes ID FNP doesn't even get triggered.

I don't understand why people keep thinking FNP goes first,
the stuff that is being argued and FNP are all triggered at the same time when there is an "Unsaved Wound".

If the player opts to resolve the other things first, say Hexrifle and you fail the test then you get removed.

Then you can take your FNP but on a removed model.
If FNP passes you will have a saved wound on a crystallized model.

Makutsu wrote:If it causes ID FNP doesn't even get triggered.

I don't understand why people keep thinking FNP goes first,
the stuff that is being argued and FNP are all triggered at the same time when there is an "Unsaved Wound".

If the player opts to resolve the other things first, say Hexrifle and you fail the test then you get removed.

Then you can take your FNP but on a removed model.
If FNP passes you will have a saved wound on a crystallized model.

and you would have to ignore the Hexrifle test as FNP turns the wound into a Saved wound, and therefore the Hexrifle test could not have taken place.

no since you already removed the model you would not be able to revert that effect, does FNP say that you can bring back removed models?

The hexrifle effect triggered because you had an unsaved wound, chose that it gets rolled first, fails Characteristic test, removed.
Then FNP will get rolled, passes, saved wound on a removed model.

FNP still triggers but only on a removed model. It doesn't revert other effects besides reverting an unsaved wound to a saved wound.

I thought FNP worked on unsaved Wounds, where as the hexrifle goes of unsaved wound. At work so I can't double check.

Happyjew wrote:I thought FNP worked on unsaved Wounds, where as the hexrifle goes of unsaved wound. At work so I can't double check.

Interesting point. That means you can never take a FnP save against the unsaved wound of a hexrifle as it only does 1 wound, and wounds is obviously multiple. Insert stupid smiley face here.

Rules that are triggered at the same time? Well that's easy, the Exceptions rule on page 9 of the main rulebook tells us whoever's turn it is decides the order. I voted "Players turn decides the order". That is all.

Personally I am of the belief that there is a difference when dealing with units with mixed saves vs units with the same save. Since wound allocation and rolling of saves occur in different orders for these cases, they will have an effect on when FnP happens.

triplare wrote:Rules that are triggered at the same time? Well that's easy, the Exceptions rule on page 9 of the main rulebook tells us whoever's turn it is decides the order. I voted "Players turn decides the order". That is all.

Does not apply.

"Both players will have to do something at the same time" is not the case. Both players do not have to do something at the same time. The player with the model that was wounded has to do two different things.

DeathReaper wrote:

triplare wrote:Rules that are triggered at the same time? Well that's easy, the Exceptions rule on page 9 of the main rulebook tells us whoever's turn it is decides the order. I voted "Players turn decides the order". That is all.

Does not apply.

"Both players will have to do something at the same time" is not the case. Both players do not have to do something at the same time. The player with the model that was wounded has to do two different things.

Yea, I've seen the utter dissection of RAW and 'literal dictionary definition' positions posted. IMO, the problems revolve around trying to further quantify the timing of an 'unsaved wound'. Pretty ridiculous as far as my experience is concerned. The Exceptions rule is simple, fair and actually does apply. One player has FNP...the other player has something that resolves at 'unsaved wound' time. There's a poll and I answered it how I see it and how my gaming group plays it. I don't think FNP always wins or the 'other effect' always wins; everyone's arguments have been considered and their opinions are noted. Game on.

The Exceptions rule is simple, fair and actually would apply if both players had actions/ if both players "have to do something at the same time"

This is not the case.

Only one player must take two different actions. the player that controls the hexrifle does not have to do anything, as it is on his opponent to roll the test for the Hexrifle.

People must be misreading P.9 for "Players turn decides the order." option to have been clicked so many times.

DeathReaper wrote:People must be misreading P.9 for "Players turn decides the order." option to have been clicked so many times.

Yes, that must be it.

triplare wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:People must be misreading P.9 for "Players turn decides the order." option to have been clicked so many times.

Yes, that must be it.

Well since P.9 says "Both players will have to do something at the same time" then gives instructions to follow if that happens, and in the situation with Hexrifle and FNP, Both players DO NOT have to do something at the same time.

2 rules are triggered forcing the defending player to make two different rolls. (Note only one player is doing something).

The rules are clear and people must be misreading them.

Since the majority (on this site at least) appears to disagree with you, maybe you should stop claiming you're right in such cast iron terms? Clearly there is room for interpretation.

In my local GWS we talked about the issue and came to the conclusion that FNP is taken as the very last thing. Taking FNP, then passing a leadership test on a bonesword is like taking a 4+ armor save on an ap2 weapon to see if the wound counts. If the bonesword activates on a leadership test, then FNP is negated.

In terms of narrative/logic, FNP is when someone gets wounded but is too manly to stop fighting. So if a bonesword cleaves him in half, can he ignore it and keep going? No, because he's been cut in half

nohman wrote:Since the majority (on this site at least) appears to disagree with you, maybe you should stop claiming you're right in such cast iron terms? Clearly there is room for interpretation.

Both people clearly do not have things to do.

how is that fact unclear?

People are misreading the rule on P.9