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First blood states that the unit must be removed as a casualty. Vehicles are only ever removed as casualties when Lukas stasis bombs them. They always either are Wrecked and now count as terrain, or explodes and are simply removed, but not as a casualty.

This means that Dedicated Transports, or in fact any other vehicle, don't give out First Blood points.

Wow, that's... actually tricky. I can't see any counter to this. In fact, I'm not even sure that this isn't RAI - do vehicles bleed?

First person to say Dreadnought pilots gets -1 internetz. :p

Rulebook quotes:
"First Blood
The first unit, of any kind, to be removed as a casualty
during the game is worth 1 Victory Point to the opposing
player at the end of the game."

"Explodes! The vehicle is ripped apart in a
spectacular explosion, as its fuel and ammo detonate.
The vehicle is destroyed. Nearby units suffer a Strength
3, AP- hit for each model within D6" of the vehicle (roll
for the distance once,regardles sof how many times the
result is inflicted), as flaming debris scatters across the
area.The vehicle is then removed and replaced with
scattered wreckage(area terrain) or a crater roughly the
same size as the vehicle (if you have one)."

"Wrecked Vehicles
A vehicle that is reduced to 0 Hull Points is immediately
Wrecked. The tortured vehicle simply cannot takeany more.
The vehicle is destroyed, and its crew are slain.The model is left in place and becomes a wreck."

So the idea of 'Remove as a casualty' does not exist in the same way for vehicles as other models:

"Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties
Next, allocate an unsaved Wound to the enemy model closest to
the firing unit. Reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If the model is
reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty."

I can't see any counter to this. In fact, I'm not even sure that this isn't RAI - do vehicles bleed?

While I agree that it would seem to be RAW that vehicles do not count, the fact that they all, including dreadnoughts (so I'll gladly have -1 internetz, thankyou), have crews, would seem to me to make it pretty damn clear that it is RAI that they do.

And that First Blood states "The first unit, of any kind...."

GW has generically written vehicles as they were troops in many cases, I would think this is another of them.

Fragile wrote:And that First Blood states "The first unit, of any kind...."

GW has generically written vehicles as they were troops in many cases, I would think this is another of them.

Right, no one is disputing that the rules say 'Unit of any kind', they are disputing the fact that vehicles are removed as casualties. Heck, wrecked vehicles aren't even removed.

Yes, but GW has a history of "wounding vehicles" that have no wounds... etc..

Not really concerned with history so much as the rules as written.

Rofl.....

Maybe take a look at the Tenets of YMDC before posting next time?

Tenets wrote:2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs.

Historical information doesn't really fall into those two sources and is, in fact, excluded by the word 'current'.

Technically true, but history can give some idea how GW may swing. For example, strictly literal readings that produce an odd result tend to get FAQed/Errata. Additionally, I contend that strict reading of GW rules is a waste of time as they were never written with that degree of specificity or clarity. It reflects a fundamentally different mindset than the GW writers seems to have. Strict semantics and pedantry seem to consistently fall. See also The Most Important Rule.

jmurph wrote:For example, strictly literal readings that produce an odd result tend to get FAQed/Errata.

Too bad they still haven't made a call on how to draw LOS from Wraithguards/Wraithlords...

Give me a break....of course it counts torwards first blood.

Too damn literal people. (If GW was this literal we'd have a decent rule book, but we don't; so quit trying to break things, we all know it's broke.)

I am OK with this - means that no one can ever score First Blood against my armored company.

jmurph wrote:Technically true . . .

is the best kind of true.

This is funny and I missed it.
More to read!

Thats actually why it was pointed out to me, I can't take credit for this, Grey Elder, my brother, pointed it out to me in a game last night. I had popped his rhinos, went to claim first blood and he said no.

RAI it almost assuredly seems that they did indeed intend vehicles to count, as in Purge the Alien it specifically reminds you that dedicated transports and ICs are seperate units. However, I've found that vehicles not granting first blood is a much more fun way to play, as going second doesn't mean you auto give up a VP.

RAW however I'm pretty sure the only way to First Blood a vehicle is through Lukas the Trickster and Stasis suicide.

So, when a vehicle is exploded and "is removed" how is it removed as ?

This means that a unit that gets Swept also does not grant first blood.

Unit1126PLL wrote:This means that a unit that gets Swept also does not grant first blood.

Why? A swept unit is removed as casualties.

SA removes as a casualty

Fragile wrote:So, when a vehicle is exploded and "is removed" how is it removed as ?

It is just removed.

Nvm then, still have 5th rules on the brain. Sorry.

Fragile wrote:So, when a vehicle is exploded and "is removed" how is it removed as ?

The same as if it were an infantry model who failed a initiative check on Jaws. Simply remove the model from play.

sfshilo wrote:Give me a break....of course it counts torwards first blood.

Too damn literal people. (If GW was this literal we'd have a decent rule book, but we don't; so quit trying to break things, we all know it's broke.)

There is wisdom in your words.
I don't think anyone would try to claim that vehicles don't count in battle.

Good to know, since vehicles are only "destroyed" that means that in Purge the Alien, only vehicles count as kill points since that mission only counts "units that are completely destroyed", unless they are in reserve or falling back.

Fragile wrote:Good to know, since vehicles are only "destroyed" that means that in Purge the Alien, only vehicles count as kill points since that mission only counts "units that are completely destroyed", unless they are in reserve or falling back.

RAW nothing is completely destroyed.

I'm joking but I'd bet pennies to pounds someone on dakka would insist that is the case

Wow... Just....wow.

Add this to the list of "things to begin packing up my models to".

Sweeping advance and mishaps can cause destroyed for any kind of unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Purge The Alien bit makes me fall more in the RAI on this one though. It is unlikely that PtA only means that vehicle, sweeping advances, mishaps and units falling back at the end of the game or off table count.

But do vehicles grant VP?

Only models get removed as casualties by the RAW, units do not.

So by the 'RAW', First Blood is meaningless and never occurs.