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Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Just a thought from a game on the weekend, where my opponent cast Transformation of Kadon, and he rolled high enough that I didn't bother to try dispelling it. I just shut down the rest of his magic phase, let a bunch of halberdiers get ripped up for one magic turn, then dispelled it in my turn and hacked the wizard to pieces.

I've seen the same kind of thing happen when I took Life - if I cast Throne of Vines with enough dice to make it hard for my opponent to counter it, most experienced players would let me, use their dispel dice to shut down most of my remaining magic phase, then burn a couple of dice to dispel Throne in their own phase.

I've got no problem with the effectiveness of RIP spells, it just seems a little boring for RIP spells to generally not remain in play at all, and frequently not past the next magic phase. In my mind, it'd be really cool for magicians to battle over whether or not a spell remains in play, for instance an enemy wizard trying to pull apart your caster's Throne of Vines, while your own magic repairs the Throne and puts magical defences around the Throne.

So would it work to allow a player to use his magic dice to nullify an opponent's dispel efforts? So in the next turn when I went to roll against his Transformation spell I knew all I needed was a 20 and there was nothing he could do about it. Should he have been able to use some of his dispel dice to beat my roll, and keep his spell up and running?

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Victoria, B.C. Canada

The fact that they have to burn power dice to dispel it in their own phase is great. Remains in play spells are a very effective magic defence. Draining 2-3 power dice from your opponent is pretty big.



Change and change until Change is our master, for nothing neither God nor mortal can hold that which has no form. Change is the constant that cannot be changed.

No game of chess can be won without pawns, and this may prove to be a very long game.


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In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

I presume the idea is to be able to use your own dice to counter a dispel. The problem with this is that dispelling a dispel gets into Inception levels of confusion.

Ok, not really, but I had to get Inception in there somewhere. The point remains though is that it just gets out of hand. Besides, what Nitros says is true, there's nothing wrong with them using up their Power Dice!

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You're never going to get as many dice on dispel as someone gets on casting. Especially with all the +dice abilities around. If you kept the same casting value for dispel, for instance, someone could throw 12 dice at it and it would be up forever.

People don't HAVE to throw a zillion dice at RIP. The rules clearly state what can happen, and in your case did happen. If they want to take that risk, it's totally up to them.

But someone losing throne because the enemy used 3 of their dispel dice the next round I don't think is a concern.

Used strategically, RIP spells can be a means to get your other magic through. If you throw out transformation or throne, the enemy is very inclined to turn them off. So you lose your 1st round of magic, but you'll likely get more 2nd round if they are taking out your RIPs. If they don't, then you got a round to use it.

If you keep rolling fairly even casting/dispel, this won't work, but that's the nature of magic.

   
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Where the sun crosses the field of blood.

I think the problem is that even though your opponent has to waste Power Dice, you can't do anything to even try and stop him. If he wants to dispel, he'll dispel it.
Actually, I'd prefer if you'd have to use your dispel dice to mantain your spell instead of your opponent just having to beat the lowest value.
For example, it could be arranged like this:
During your opponents turn, they declare they want to dispel your RIP spell. He then throws his Power Dice as usual, and then you get to throw dispel dice as usual (fluffed as your Wizard focusing on protecting his own spell instead of dispelling his opponents).

I think it would be better that way. It gives you an option.

 
   
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The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.

 The Shadow wrote:
I presume the idea is to be able to use your own dice to counter a dispel. The problem with this is that dispelling a dispel gets into Inception levels of confusion.

Ok, not really, but I had to get Inception in there somewhere. The point remains though is that it just gets out of hand. Besides, what Nitros says is true, there's nothing wrong with them using up their Power Dice!


Well if you can dispel a dispel attempt, why not dispel that attempt at dispelling the dispel, and then let your opponent dispel your attempt at displelling his attempt to dispel your spell. That is pretty mindblowing. And if you continue it it could get inception-ish...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 20:52:32


Malifaux masters owned: Guild(Sans McCabe), Outcasts(Sans Misaki), Arcanists(Sans Marcus)

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Agile Revenant Titan




In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

thedarkavenger wrote:
 The Shadow wrote:
I presume the idea is to be able to use your own dice to counter a dispel. The problem with this is that dispelling a dispel gets into Inception levels of confusion.

Ok, not really, but I had to get Inception in there somewhere. The point remains though is that it just gets out of hand. Besides, what Nitros says is true, there's nothing wrong with them using up their Power Dice!


Well if you can dispel a dispel attempt, why not dispel that attempt at dispelling the dispel, and then let your opponent dispel your attempt at displelling his attempt to dispel your spell. That is pretty mindblowing. And if you continue it it could get inception-ish...

I was going to write that, but I didn't want to blow anyone's mind up..

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I think they are balanced fairly well. Throne of Vines is dirt cheap. To cast and to dispel. You can easily cast it before each augment. If it's dispelled, that's just part of magic.

Transformation is 16+. That means 4 dice on a lvl 2 caster to have just an average chance to dispel it. So your anti-magic turn is basically over and they can get through all their spells after that. I think that's totally fair.

   
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 The Shadow wrote:
The point remains though is that it just gets out of hand.


No, because it doesn't mean you'd have spell, then dispel, then counter dispel, then a counter counter dispel and so on. Nothing I said even hinted at that.

To explain it more explicitly, right now you cast a spell, and then the other guy decides whether to dispel or not. Or you dispel one of his RIP spells, and he just sits there doing nothing, because he's not allowed to do anything. What I'm suggesting is that if a player tries to use his power dice to dispel your RIP spell, you could have the option to use your dispel dice to counter that.

It'd produce a bit of a narrative of his wizard trying to pull your RIP spell apart, and your wizard trying to keep it together.

Besides, what Nitros says is true, there's nothing wrong with them using up their Power Dice!


Of course there isn't. I said in my OP that's what I do now. But that system, to me, is kind of dull, and it'd be interesting to see how many dice someone was willing to throw at a RIP spell if there was a chance of the other player defending it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DukeRustfield wrote:
You're never going to get as many dice on dispel as someone gets on casting. Especially with all the +dice abilities around. If you kept the same casting value for dispel, for instance, someone could throw 12 dice at it and it would be up forever.


Well, they could throw 6, because that's the most dice you can throw at anything.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The CF wrote:
For example, it could be arranged like this:
During your opponents turn, they declare they want to dispel your RIP spell. He then throws his Power Dice as usual, and then you get to throw dispel dice as usual (fluffed as your Wizard focusing on protecting his own spell instead of dispelling his opponents).

I think it would be better that way. It gives you an option.


That is exactly the system I proposed in my OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DukeRustfield wrote:
I think they are balanced fairly well. Throne of Vines is dirt cheap. To cast and to dispel. You can easily cast it before each augment. If it's dispelled, that's just part of magic.

Transformation is 16+. That means 4 dice on a lvl 2 caster to have just an average chance to dispel it. So your anti-magic turn is basically over and they can get through all their spells after that. I think that's totally fair.


I think, like I explained in the other thread, you're once again confusing game balance with perfect game design. The system right now works well enough, RIP spells are strong enough, and the cost for bringing them down is reasonable enough.

But balance alone doesn't make a thing perfect, doesn't prevent it possibly being more fun. Having the ability to actually stake how many power dice, and how many dispel dice a RIP is really worth would be, in my opinion, an interesting mechanic.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/22 04:45:58


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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Well, they could throw 6, because that's the most dice you can throw at anything.

My point is, all other things being equal, like +to cast and +to dispel, if it were pegged to actual casting total, it may be impossible to ever dispel it. Which is kinda frustrating. A caster will average more than 6 dice. A dispeller will rarely have 6.

I think, like I explained in the other thread, you're once again confusing game balance with perfect game design. The system right now works well enough, RIP spells are strong enough, and the cost for bringing them down is reasonable enough.

Er. And I think once again people are looking for solutions to non-problems. Or at least problems I can't recognize.

Someone made a bad tactical decision in one game, but I can't see how that's cause for a rewrite of an entire spell type. I can't see anyone saying throne of vines is a junky spell. Even if they only got it one round. Likewise, Purple Sun, Withering, and some of the stuff from WoC/DoC like curse of leper are RIP and they're all damn good.

Transformation is...iffy. I pointed out in another thread one of the best, and frankly silliest, units to cast it are Greater Daemons. Probably Khairos. Because you keep your special rules. So he can turn into some chimera with a 3+ ward, magic, flaming attacks, 1 head still to cast spells, rerolls. And if you dispell it, you're still standing in front of a Greater Daemon. Casting it and running headlong into the enemy isn't a good use unless you're caster is already fighty. But that's not hidden. Everyone knows that. If he instead attacked a flanking or supporting unit, he'd have been fine and you might not have even dispelled it as he's no longer a caster in exchange for fighting a unit you can stand to lose. That's, you know, tactics.

   
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In the Casualty section of a Blood Bowl dugout

 sebster wrote:
 The Shadow wrote:
The point remains though is that it just gets out of hand.


No, because it doesn't mean you'd have spell, then dispel, then counter dispel, then a counter counter dispel and so on. Nothing I said even hinted at that.

To explain it more explicitly, right now you cast a spell, and then the other guy decides whether to dispel or not. Or you dispel one of his RIP spells, and he just sits there doing nothing, because he's not allowed to do anything. What I'm suggesting is that if a player tries to use his power dice to dispel your RIP spell, you could have the option to use your dispel dice to counter that..

Yes, yes, I know about that. I was joking. Still, you are counter-dispelling which, in an already rather complicated game, might not go down so well.

Besides, the whole "getting out of hand" argument isn't the main one why this change isn't necessary. As others have said, it's already quite balanced. If he's sacrificing his Power Dice to dispel your RIP spell, then that means you've got a much nicer magic phase to deal with

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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





DukeRustfield wrote:
My point is, all other things being equal, like +to cast and +to dispel, if it were pegged to actual casting total, it may be impossible to ever dispel it. Which is kinda frustrating. A caster will average more than 6 dice. A dispeller will rarely have 6.


You cut out the bit where I pointed out your point above doesn't work, as the rule I proposed doesn't work like you assumed it did.

Er. And I think once again people are looking for solutions to non-problems. Or at least problems I can't recognize.


That you've assumed this is a solution to a problem is exactly what's so limited in how you approach almost every proposal in this forum.

The Ogre Kingdom book wasn't written because there was a problem with the meta not having enough armies full of monsters with moderate toughness and loads of wounds. It was written because people thought it'd be fun to play an army full of Ogres. The same goes for most everything in this game, and every game that's like WHFB - you put in a load of fun ideas and then get them all balanced, more or less, afterwards.

Someone made a bad tactical decision in one game, but I can't see how that's cause for a rewrite of an entire spell type. I can't see anyone saying throne of vines is a junky spell. Even if they only got it one round. Likewise, Purple Sun, Withering, and some of the stuff from WoC/DoC like curse of leper are RIP and they're all damn good.


This isn't about making RIP spells better. I couldn't have said that more clearly in my OP; "I've got no problem with the effectiveness of RIP spells".

This is all about producing a game with a little more interaction between casters, and a litte more strategy in how many dice a player is willing to stake to get rid of a RIP spell.

That's, you know, tactics.


Yeah, and right now you look at a RIP spell the other guy cast last turn and you need an 8+ to get rid of that. So you pick two dice if you're a little adventurous, or 3 dice if you're conservative and that's it. There is no inter-play between players, and the tactical complexity is simplistic as a result.

Instead, if you look at that and you really need to get rid of that RIP spell, but by only matching the target number there's a chance the other guy will oppose your dispel and keep his RIP, how many dice do you risk then? Enough to just get past the dispel, or more to make sure his RIP comes down? And once he's rolled his dispel, does the other player burn his own dispel dice to keep his RIP spell up and leave himself vulnerable in the rest of his opponent's magic phase?

Asking those kinds of questions produces some real tactical questions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Shadow wrote:
Yes, yes, I know about that. I was joking. Still, you are counter-dispelling which, in an already rather complicated game, might not go down so well.


Actually, it'd be making things consistent. Right now when a mage attempts an action, the other player can attempt a counter action... unless he's dispelling a RIP spell.

All my suggestion would do is make it a standard rule that any magic action can be countered by the other player, if he wants to burn the dice to do it.

Besides, the whole "getting out of hand" argument isn't the main one why this change isn't necessary. As others have said, it's already quite balanced. If he's sacrificing his Power Dice to dispel your RIP spell, then that means you've got a much nicer magic phase to deal with


Because balance and balance alone is a the holy grail of boring rules design.

I think this would be nice as it'd allow a little more counter play between mages, and force some interesting questions onto players. Games should be designed with those ideas in mind first, with the expectation that you can figure out balance afterwards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/23 04:44:40


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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I don't see the benefit of adding the ability for you to attempt to dispel your opponents attempt at dispelling a RIP spell. S/he's already wasting 2-3 dice attempting to dispel it, which hurts the remainder of his magic phase. Why would you waste your dispel dice to counter that when there is the potential that he's going to cast something nasty later on in that phase? With average rolls countering his dispel will leave you vulnerable. The only time it would benefit the player who casted the RIP is if they somehow manage to get more dispel dice than their opponent got power dice. In that situation the dispelling player's magic phase is already shot for the most part which really hurts certain armies. Not even allowing them to dispel the RIP in a situation where they can't get any of their own spells off throws balance off.


And what happens in a situation where you have an army with minimal magic against an army with a lot of magic? Say nothing more than a level 1 /w a Dispel Scroll. On average that player will only have 7.1667 power dice. Put that up against a Teclis led army with a couple more mages and you're looking at them having 6 dispel dice a turn. Factor in the fact they're getting +4 to dispel and you have the fun situation where the HE army can not only cast at will, but they can also keep all of their RIP spells from being dispelled. After the first two turns they won't need to cast another RIP spell opening further use of their magic. (Oh and give him a crystal and player A has 6 power dice to player B's 7 dispel dice...)

Thematically it looks good, but it isn't applicable.

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 sebster wrote:

That you've assumed this is a solution to a problem is exactly what's so limited in how you approach almost every proposal in this forum.

Lol. Why so aggro? I posted on this before. This is propsed RULES. I do assume everyone who posts here wants an idea on whether something is balanced. I'd say 99% of the posts are of that nature. And I think you see every single response here made the exact same assumption. If you want essentially campaign guidelines, that's very different. You can make RIP spells undispellable and anyone who tries instantly dies. But I'm not sure how to respond to non-balance rules suggestions other than saying "neato" or "not-heato."

The Ogre Kingdom book wasn't written because there was a problem with the meta not having enough armies full of monsters with moderate toughness and loads of wounds.

The ogre book was written to sell models. It was REWRITTEN for balance (and to sell models). Remember old gutmagic? That might have been fun. But it wasn't balanced so they changed it. Everything about it was about making balance. Whether they succeeded or not is a question, I think they did pretty well, other than the ironfist blunder. They could have given them better magic than HE, and it might have been spiffy, but it wouldn't have been balanced.

This is all about producing a game with a little more interaction between casters, and a litte more strategy in how many dice a player is willing to stake to get rid of a RIP spell.

Yeah, and right now you look at a RIP spell the other guy cast last turn and you need an 8+ to get rid of that. So you pick two dice if you're a little adventurous, or 3 dice if you're conservative and that's it. There is no inter-play between players, and the tactical complexity is simplistic as a result.

First off, you're cherry picking. Throne costs 8. And your 8 to dispel < his 8 to recast, cuz he has more dice. That's an interplay. Transformation, however, is 16. Which is what you lead this thread with. No one is ho-humming dispelling a 16. Likewise, if you fail, you can't cast or dispel anything more. It's never a no-brainer unless you're done casting and have nothing to lose.

But it's cool. Now that we've established you're not looking for balance comments, and you seem to be getting miffed at them, I'll just say it's great.

   
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Amaya wrote:
I don't see the benefit of adding the ability for you to attempt to dispel your opponents attempt at dispelling a RIP spell. S/he's already wasting 2-3 dice attempting to dispel it, which hurts the remainder of his magic phase. Why would you waste your dispel dice to counter that when there is the potential that he's going to cast something nasty later on in that phase? With average rolls countering his dispel will leave you vulnerable. The only time it would benefit the player who casted the RIP is if they somehow manage to get more dispel dice than their opponent got power dice. In that situation the dispelling player's magic phase is already shot for the most part which really hurts certain armies. Not even allowing them to dispel the RIP in a situation where they can't get any of their own spells off throws balance off.


Because keeping your RIP spell up is more important than stopping one of their spells. Now, that might not be the case in which case you let them dispel it and it's just like it would be under the current rules. But consider instead what it means to them when they try to dispel your RIP. Do they just drop a couple of dice at it, and leave you the tactical choice of sacrificing a little exposure to the rest of their magic phase to protect your RIP, or do you let your RIP spell go in order to protect yourself for the rest of the magic phase.

That all depends on how valuable you consider that RIP spell to be, and how threatening you think the rest of his magic phase is likely to be (and how likely you think you are to stop it). That, to me, is an interesting choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DukeRustfield wrote:
Lol. Why so aggro? I posted on this before. This is propsed RULES. I do assume everyone who posts here wants an idea on whether something is balanced. I'd say 99% of the posts are of that nature. And I think you see every single response here made the exact same assumption. If you want essentially campaign guidelines, that's very different. You can make RIP spells undispellable and anyone who tries instantly dies. But I'm not sure how to respond to non-balance rules suggestions other than saying "neato" or "not-heato."


I'm not aggro, I'm just trying to explain something clearly when we've had this conversation before - there is more to game design than balance.

And other potential responses would be 'that wouldn't set up very interesting decisions because of blah' or something like that.

The ogre book was written to sell models. It was REWRITTEN for balance (and to sell models). Remember old gutmagic? That might have been fun. But it wasn't balanced so they changed it. Everything about it was about making balance. Whether they succeeded or not is a question, I think they did pretty well, other than the ironfist blunder. They could have given them better magic than HE, and it might have been spiffy, but it wouldn't have been balanced.


That's just a dodge and you know it. Of course they're selling models. But to pretend there's no consideration for things being 'fun' is just wrong.


First off, you're cherry picking. Throne costs 8. And your 8 to dispel < his 8 to recast, cuz he has more dice. That's an interplay. Transformation, however, is 16. Which is what you lead this thread with. No one is ho-humming dispelling a 16. Likewise, if you fail, you can't cast or dispel anything more. It's never a no-brainer unless you're done casting and have nothing to lose.


First up, I led off with Transformation and Vines, in two examples. Only reason I put Transformation first was because I benefitted from it, and didn't want people to think my idea came out of me coming off second best.

Second up, you missed the point 'ho hum'. The context clearly pointed to it meaning the sequence of events were boring. The decisions were obvious, with each party doing the only sensible thing.

If you change that up to include more interaction between the players then you get more complex tactical decisions.

But it's cool. Now that we've established you're not looking for balance comments, and you seem to be getting miffed at them, I'll just say it's great.


You're really not listening. I never said balance wasn't important, I said it wasn't the only important thing, therefore 'it is already balanced therefore change is not needed' doesn't work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/24 09:18:19


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
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 Amaya wrote:



And what happens in a situation where you have an army with minimal magic against an army with a lot of magic? Say nothing more than a level 1 /w a Dispel Scroll. On average that player will only have 7.1667 power dice. Put that up against a Teclis led army with a couple more mages and you're looking at them having 6 dispel dice a turn. Factor in the fact they're getting +4 to dispel and you have the fun situation where the HE army can not only cast at will, but they can also keep all of their RIP spells from being dispelled. After the first two turns they won't need to cast another RIP spell opening further use of their magic. (Oh and give him a crystal and player A has 6 power dice to player B's 7 dispel dice...)

Thematically it looks good, but it isn't applicable.


Why didn't you address the most important part?

If you have a magic heavy army against a weak magic army, the magic heavy army will be able to cast at will, keep their RIPs up by dispelling their opponents dispel attempts, and then use their now excess power dice to fuel even more powerful casting. At least as it is, the weak magic army has a chance of forcing the enemy to recast RIPs every turn.

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 Amaya wrote:
Why didn't you address the most important part?

If you have a magic heavy army against a weak magic army, the magic heavy army will be able to cast at will, keep their RIPs up by dispelling their opponents dispel attempts, and then use their now excess power dice to fuel even more powerful casting. At least as it is, the weak magic army has a chance of forcing the enemy to recast RIPs every turn.


Because it's a really specific example, that says more about High Elf magic than about any rules suggestion.

I mean, the point simply cannot be 'High Elf magic is powerful, and can absolutely dominate when the opposition has taken little magic, and this is okay now, but if it were possible to use dice to defend RIP spells then the extra couple then it'd be totally out of control'.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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The HE example is the most extreme, but you can field other armies with wizards that have +5 or +6 to cast and dispel. The average d6 roll is a 3.5 A level 1 wizard has to roll an extra dice to get a spell off against a lvl5+ wizard. Your suggestion still favors powerful magic armies.

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 Amaya wrote:
The HE example is the most extreme, but you can field other armies with wizards that have +5 or +6 to cast and dispel. The average d6 roll is a 3.5 A level 1 wizard has to roll an extra dice to get a spell off against a lvl5+ wizard. Your suggestion still favors powerful magic armies.


It does favour more powerful magic armies, yeah. But then I'd go back to my point against DukeRustfield, that minor shifts in balance shouldn't be enough to reject an idea. I mean, maybe it's only sensible that powerful mages should have a greater ability to keep powerful spells in the game? And maybe it only makes sense that something like whether or not a RIP spell is kept in the game should have some interaction between the two players.

If we think those are good enough arguments, then defending RIP spells becomes a good thing. So you put it in the game, and then fine tune things to set the balance about right.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 03:32:06


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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It's not a minor shift in balance, it would make fielding a magic-lite army pointless in a competitive setting.

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 Amaya wrote:
It's not a minor shift in balance, it would make fielding a magic-lite army pointless in a competitive setting.


Really? Because it is slightly more difficult to cast RIP spells, of which there are like three in the entirety of the BRB, then magic light armies become pointless in competitive games?


I like your new avatar by the way. Who is it?

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw






I'm thinking specifically of the armies that do use RIP play spells tend to field magic heavy lists. Or maybe I'm just having nightmares of fighting Teclis HE.

It's a mugshot of an 18 year old Malcom X used for the cover of The Roots album The Tipping Point.

Read my story at:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/515293.page#5420356



 
   
 
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