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Made in gb
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






So last night I took on the infamous Necron flyer list. I can't remember the specifics of the troop units, but I think it was something like this:

Imotek w/Chronometron Cryptek

Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe

Night Scythe w/5 Necron Warriors
Night Scythe w/5 Necron Warriors + Voltaic Cryptek
Night Scythe w/10 Necron Warriors + Voltaic Cryptek
Night Scythe w/10 Necron Warriors + Voltaic Cryptek
Night Scythe w/10 Necron Warriors + Voltaic Cryptek

Bastion w/ Comms Relay

I was using my black templars. My list was something like this:

Emperor's Champion w/AAC
Marshal in TA w/ TH/SS and Adamantine mantle

Crusader Squad (5 man) with PF and meltagun (x 2)

Cyclone terminators (unit of 5 with 2 cyclones and tank hunters)

Assault Cannon terminators (unit of 5 with 2 Assault Cannon and tank hunters)

5 Man Assault terminator unit

Land Raider Crusader x 2
Land Raider Godhammer (standard pattern)

So the mission was big guns, and the setup was vanguard strike. My opponent placed his bastion such that it effectively "cut off" a corner of the table, and plonked Imotek down in that space. Having re-read the bastion rules, it counts as impassible, and can only be shot at while it is occupied, which means that any chance of an alpha strke on his character on turn 1 is zero. So basically nothing happened on turn 1 or 2 for me, because the objectives were primarily in my DZ, which i figured gave me the best chance of survival. On turn 2, everything came on (thanks to the comms relay), and it was just horrific. The death rays failed to destroy the land raiders, but they arent the real threat. These night scythes can move 24" and disembark a warrior squad. The voltaic staff is absolutely ridiculous for it's points cost - this was something I hadn't came up against before, but it just made a mockery of the land raiders. I know my army is a bit eggs in basket syndrome, but basically unless I hug my table edge, it's essentially a "deep strike" with no risk. There is nowhere on the table that is safe from these weapons. Once the land raiders (2 of them) were destroyed, the tesla destructors opened up. I swear I will never complain about las/plas ever again - this is hands down the best weapon i've ever seen on any transport vehicle.

My shooting was woefully ineffective, the only damage I managed to deal to his flyers was 2 hull points from one doom scythe. My surviving troops and terminators mopped up the warriors which had disembarked pretty effectively, but with nowhere to run, the death rays and destructors just opened up on them. I wasn't tabled, but my army had taken one hell of a whooping before the game ended on turn 5.

So my thoughts and observations fighting this army:

-Unless you are packing a serious amount of skyfire (i.e. vendetta squadrons), you have no chance, and even then you have to go second and hope that his flyers turn up before yours do. A single ADL with a quad gun isn't going to do anything here. Even hydras will fail badly - the flyers will just get the alpha strike in on you

-Twin linking isn't that effective, unless its on Ap2 weapons. Dakka dreads and presience psycannons could work I guess, but even if you penetrate with those weapons you still need 6's to destroy them. And if they are shaken and stunned, the flyer is just likely to fly off the table on its next turn to avoid the negative effects (thanks to living metal)

-If played correctly, it is almost impossible to get the alpha strike on Imotek. In that "zone" behind the bastion, he is invincible, except for indirect fire weapons - which if its nightfighting (and it will be with the stormlord) if they are more than 36" away they will auto miss.

-I can't think of any army that this flyer list can't deal with. The death rays can ID paladins, nobs and grotesques. The "deep striking" warriros can annihilate any armour, especially with the voltaic staff. The destructors can just tear into footslogging lists without the counter threat of being assaulted.

-And even if you somehow manage to destroy any of the flyers - there are STILL 8 more of them. My opponent made me go first in our game, which basically I only got to play turns 3, 4 and 5 of the game.

I'm maybe whining, but I really didn't enjoy the game. I only participated in it for 3 turns, and for a large majority of that game it felt like my army was invalidated. I won't be playing this army again in a casual format, and I just hope that tournaments don't become saturated with this sort of nonsense.

So what are your thoughts dakka? Anythign you agree with? Or do I just need to go back to the drawing board?









Please check out my video battle report series! 50 games in 50 weeks!

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF20FCCD695F810C2&feature=edit_ok
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL36388662C07B319B&feature=view_all
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrPdNlJMge2eUv55aJag2cMj4znP8YfOT&feature=view_all
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxrTKHXULnQ&list=PLrPdNlJMge2cN6_lo1RbXvbvFZbto5wXB

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Made in de
Fixture of Dakka





Classig TFG. Using buyable terrain while playing one of the most TFG lists out there right now...

You also have to consider that you're using a very weak and outdated codex vs. the first 6th codex and your army is what every Tesla-heavy army would love to be like: small units with a good save.

I do not use any flyers myself but I would have been likely to win this game too, if not by the huge margin as TFG.

I didn't quite get the Imotek part yet (about the "cut off"), why could't you have deepstriked your stuff and fired at him?
   
Made in gb
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






Imagine something like the attachment below. Nowhere to fit in a drop pod, and you can't move past the bastion.

[Thumb - Example.JPG]


Please check out my video battle report series! 50 games in 50 weeks!

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF20FCCD695F810C2&feature=edit_ok
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL36388662C07B319B&feature=view_all
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrPdNlJMge2eUv55aJag2cMj4znP8YfOT&feature=view_all
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxrTKHXULnQ&list=PLrPdNlJMge2cN6_lo1RbXvbvFZbto5wXB

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Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 liam0404 wrote:
Imagine something like the attachment below. Nowhere to fit in a drop pod, and you can't move past the bastion.


Seems like a perfect idea, but can he actually claim to be within 2'' of the Comms Relay if it's on the roof of the Bastion and Imhotek's hiding behind the building?
   
Made in gb
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






Thats a good point. I just assumed that you had to be next to the fortification, like with the ADL.

Please check out my video battle report series! 50 games in 50 weeks!

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF20FCCD695F810C2&feature=edit_ok
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL36388662C07B319B&feature=view_all
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrPdNlJMge2eUv55aJag2cMj4znP8YfOT&feature=view_all
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxrTKHXULnQ&list=PLrPdNlJMge2cN6_lo1RbXvbvFZbto5wXB

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Highlord of Terra






Spetulhu wrote:
Seems like a perfect idea, but can he actually claim to be within 2'' of the Comms Relay if it's on the roof of the Bastion and Imhotek's hiding behind the building?


Sure, you just put the comms relay on the back side of the bastion instead of on the roof. It doesn't say anywhere in the bastion rules that you have to put it on the roof.

Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

My DKoK painting blog.

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Made in nz
Brainy Zoanthrope





Well, I don't think you actually need to place it on the roof of the bastion. I don't see how the rules are different from when it's with an ADL, so you could probably put it on the table next to the bastion if you wanted.

damn, ninja'd

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/28 08:53:45


 
   
Made in us
Highlord of Terra






Of course this just demonstrates why the whole "can't shoot an unoccupied building" rule is stupid. I don't care if it's occupied or not, I have demolisher cannons. The building is getting demolished.

Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

My DKoK painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

 
   
Made in gb
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






Thats the frustrating thing. If I could have targetted it, I would have just absolutely bombed it with everything I had, and then hoped I had enough firepower to gun down Imotek as well. Wouldn't have had a high chance of success, but it would have been worth a shot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/28 08:55:56


Please check out my video battle report series! 50 games in 50 weeks!

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF20FCCD695F810C2&feature=edit_ok
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL36388662C07B319B&feature=view_all
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrPdNlJMge2eUv55aJag2cMj4znP8YfOT&feature=view_all
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxrTKHXULnQ&list=PLrPdNlJMge2cN6_lo1RbXvbvFZbto5wXB

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Made in de
Fixture of Dakka





Thanks for the image. That's some really, really unsportsmanlike behavior right there...playing a WAAC list using WAAC "tactics" vs. someone who plays BT. Compensate much...

Can't give you any actual advice though as I am not familiar with your codex. Flyerspam is a really hard list to beat.

/e: Can one actually target the comms relay with shooting?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/28 09:19:53


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






Peoria IL

The Bastion in the corner is 100% TFG move by your opponent (no way around that). And he cheated when using the comm relay, so there's that.

I'm lost as to how you thought you could handle any flyer? I get trying to whether the storm, but seriously, if your local meta has any flyers running around you at least need something to blunt them, an allied flyer or something. That being said, we're in a gap right now before SM ML get flakk missiles. We all know its coming, but until then flyers are going to be a little OP.

Also you're running a force of 30 or so models in a game that is well over 2K... that's really dangerous when the only way you have to travel is the slow long route... and you're right, too many eggs in too few baskets is gonna hurt you bad.

Some thoughts (YMMV)

1) This was an extreme list with a short shelf life. I can't imagine you'll see this too often (if ever) again. Its dated, and in about 2 codex's it will be very blunted (who can't take at least DA or CSM as allies and use their flyers/anti-flyers to counter this madness?). TFG/cheating is always tough to deal with in a new rule set until some other codices catch up.

2) I'd take fewer vehicles, or a ton more. While it wasn't 8 flyers (did he actually have all the models?!), I did fairly well (won) against a 5 flyer necron list by basically running PA in Rhinos and some DS Termies +2 Drop pods. They can only shoot at so many targets a turn, and you can use the surviving Rhinos to bushwack any troops.

3) Get something to shoot down flyers. Allies, fortifications, something. Just downing a couple of these things really helps. The units inside get crushed if it comes down, and even if the "alpha strike" takes out your AA, that's alpha strikes not taking out your other stuff. And again, without the comm relay (which he shouldn't have been able to use) you won't get all 8 dropping in on you in turn 2.

4) Ally in a Chapter Master and orbital strike the HQ hiding in the corner, you might hurt it, and have a decent chance of taking the building out too... or better yet bring some guard along (Hydra, Valk, Master of Ordinance, etc). I really think 500 points of allies helps you a lot in this one. If you kill that thing and its pal on turn 1 (unlikely, I know), you just won the game (stupid him).

5) Acknowledge that this is a mismatch. Its like 5th ed Grey Knights Draigowing taking on a balanced Eldar list. Its just not a fair fight when 1 person ambushes another with a risky but deadly list. In a tournament, these lists won't prosper. They're too random and will find mismatches of their own (good ole updated leaf blower would do just fine against this list), but taking a low model count BT list to a GT is a bad idea already.

I'm sure others will have better ideas, but this is what I've got for now. Don't let the super WAAC players get you down. Everyone knows that is was a gimmick list and it isn't/won't be the norm in 6 months.

DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 108-11-6 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 21-3-3 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Grav Bikes Deathstar 46-1-0 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 49-1-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 9-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 2-0-0

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Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 Peregrine wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:
Seems like a perfect idea, but can he actually claim to be within 2'' of the Comms Relay if it's on the roof of the Bastion and Imhotek's hiding behind the building?


Sure, you just put the comms relay on the back side of the bastion instead of on the roof. It doesn't say anywhere in the bastion rules that you have to put it on the roof.


It doesn't say you have to put the weapon emplacements on the roof either, but that's seems to be what GW assumes people will do judging from the FAQ questions. And it does make sense seeing as it's an upgrade for the Bastion, not something you can add to the battlefield just for having a Bastion.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






Peoria IL

 Peregrine wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:
Seems like a perfect idea, but can he actually claim to be within 2'' of the Comms Relay if it's on the roof of the Bastion and Imhotek's hiding behind the building?


Sure, you just put the comms relay on the back side of the bastion instead of on the roof. It doesn't say anywhere in the bastion rules that you have to put it on the roof.


The Bastion is a model. The upgrade (comm relay) has a spot on the model. You can't model for advantage and move it down 2 stories and next to the door. That's like putting a landraider's sponsons on the front of the vehicle instead of the sides or putting a stormraven's turret on the bottom instead of the top. Regardless you have to occupy the thing to use it.

DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 108-11-6 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 21-3-3 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Grav Bikes Deathstar 46-1-0 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 49-1-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 9-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 2-0-0

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Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






Tokyo, Japan

In a tournament, these lists won't prosper. They're too random and will find mismatches of their own (good ole updated leaf blower would do just fine against this list),


I've actually had to deal with necron air force locally since 5th edition and what a huge change when it came to 6th! I actually have an IG leafblower list and have tried it vs 3 dooms + 4 night scythes and a d.lord +wraith list before. (probably would do worse vs lightning strikes) Let's just say I got tabled pretty damn fast. I can't really avoid having 2-3 vehicles hit each turn by the Dooms just cause I am a parking lot and 3d6 is a heck of a long line to draw. living metal is damn annoying even when I do manage to pen the damn thing. None of my pie plates really work. Heck, even with vendetta spam, you are overmatched by the MSU nature of the necron fliers. You can only engage 3 targets at most since squadrons are annoying in their target restrictions.

The best I did with actually with cammo net hydras + vendetta + "bring it down" autocannon platoon teams and also replaced my LR and manticore with the LR exterminator bolters along with divination allies wolves. Horde IG I hear can do well too but I personally don't have enough bodies to do it. The master of the fleet btw is REALLY good vs this kind of list. Going to ground is damn good vs fliers at least especially with orders. BTW, I still ended up losing but it was much closer that rematched game, I actually managed to kill 2 dooms and glanced a night to death! *then the remaining 4 fliers ran over the rest of the army*

On the other hand, this was prior to the doom losing the ability to use the death ray on other fliers so my vendettas probably could have turned it around. I'm gonna have to ask for a rematch now

Facing stuff like the necron fliers early in 6th has really changed the way I view my army. GK really fell hard vs something like this unless you take some storm ravens (which I really never make a list without anymore. - 2 at 2k, 1 at less than 1750). I've really had to re-write the GK tactica with stuff like this in mind now a days.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/28 10:32:03


+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






Peoria IL

Another thought: If your local scene allows IA stuff, there are a ton of great, and fairly cheap ($ and points) AA options for Marine variants in IA Aeronautica (sp?). Might be worth it to go that route too.

DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 108-11-6 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 21-3-3 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Grav Bikes Deathstar 46-1-0 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 49-1-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 9-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 2-0-0

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Made in us
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Hatfield, PA

 liam0404 wrote:
So what are your thoughts dakka? Anythign you agree with? Or do I just need to go back to the drawing board?


First thing is that your opponent was a douche and as soon as he setup the bastion and imhotep that way I would have packed up and looked for a different game. As I recall in order to use the equipment on a bastion anyway you must OCCUPY it and not just stand near it. Someone has to man the equipment for it to be useful in the first place. What kind of idiot expects to use their comms relay or defensive weapon systems while on the *outside* of the fort they are built into??

Second thing, exactly how did you expect to deal with any flyers with such a small concentrated force and zero anti-aircraft ability at all? Maybe if you had a flyer of your own you might not have been completely screwed either.

Third, but pretty much hugging your DZ and not moving around much you made it much easier on your opponent to concentrate his fire of all his flyers. Move around more and spread out. Make him spreadout and manuever his flyers more instead of letting him use the same attack runs again and again.

Fourth you army is tiny for its points cost. You concentrated all your points into a few small sized, high point units. Made it much easier for your opponent to take them out.

Combine all these things and you pretty much should have expected to be stomped into the ground like you were. You can't show up for a game anymore with zero flyer defense and then really complain about losing to flyers since you left a big hole in your tactical position right off the bat. Also more units with more weapons and more multi-shot heavy weapons would have gone a long way towards giving you more chances to actually hit the flyers in the first place. It is annoying that skyfire missile rules were not added to any existing lists yet, but space marines are one of the forces that specifically has a flyer available to them...actually more if you look to the forge world line. Even adding a small aegis defense setup to your build with a quad cannon would have kept him from just attacking over and over again with impunity.

All that tactical stuff said, I wouldn't waste my time playing with someone who feels the need to pull the play they did with their bastion and HQ. That is just obnoxious. In a tournement where you can't walk away from a game, that is one thing, in a pick up game to have fun it is just being a complete and total dick to pull things like that.

You made some planning and playing errors on the tactical side, but you also were playing against a twatwaffle, so I think it all balances out in the end and even if you had built your army differently to deal with flyers I would imagine a game against that opponent still would have been a less than fun experience.

Skriker

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/28 20:43:31


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Made in us
Highlord of Terra






 Lobukia wrote:
4) Ally in a Chapter Master and orbital strike the HQ hiding in the corner, you might hurt it, and have a decent chance of taking the building out too... or better yet bring some guard along (Hydra, Valk, Master of Ordinance, etc). I really think 500 points of allies helps you a lot in this one. If you kill that thing and its pal on turn 1 (unlikely, I know), you just won the game (stupid him).


If he's done it right you can't do that, since any shot that is legally on top of the target model will also be hitting the unoccupied bastion which is not a legal target (just like you can't place a barrage shot with one of your own models under the template).

Spetulhu wrote:
It doesn't say you have to put the weapon emplacements on the roof either, but that's seems to be what GW assumes people will do judging from the FAQ questions. And it does make sense seeing as it's an upgrade for the Bastion, not something you can add to the battlefield just for having a Bastion.


Exactly. It doesn't say you have to put them there, therefore you don't.

 Lobukia wrote:
The Bastion is a model. The upgrade (comm relay) has a spot on the model. You can't model for advantage and move it down 2 stories and next to the door. That's like putting a landraider's sponsons on the front of the vehicle instead of the sides or putting a stormraven's turret on the bottom instead of the top. Regardless you have to occupy the thing to use it.


Are we talking about the same bastion here? You know, the one where the picture in the book shows the comms relay sitting on the ground next to it?

And no, you don't have to occupy the building to use the upgrade, you have to be within 2" of it. Read the rules again.


Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

My DKoK painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

 
   
Made in gb
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






Thanks for all your comments so far guys.

To address a few points which have been raised, yeah I agree i didn't really come prepared for flyers. However, with twin linked lascannons and a couple of twin linked assault cannons on land raiders, AND the tank hunting termies - i've had moderate success in bringing down flyers with this army - when there are only 1 or 2 on the board. Land raider crusaders are also amazing at grounding FMC, purely just due to the number of rerolls they get - they really force those grounding tests.

Fighting 8 flying vehicles is a completely different world from "coping with 1 or 2". Outside of fortifications, there is no access to skyfiring weapons in the BT codex - yeah thats a self imposed limitation, but generally i've found that this list actually works really well in 6th edition.

Please check out my video battle report series! 50 games in 50 weeks!

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF20FCCD695F810C2&feature=edit_ok
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL36388662C07B319B&feature=view_all
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrPdNlJMge2eUv55aJag2cMj4znP8YfOT&feature=view_all
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxrTKHXULnQ&list=PLrPdNlJMge2cN6_lo1RbXvbvFZbto5wXB

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Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




So since we don't have to care where the optional stuff ends up, maybe I'll buy an Aegis for my next game. The quad AC can ride in a Rhino and shoot out the firepoint, I guess. After all nothing says it can't. ;-)
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





The missle spammy templar list thats been kicking around, with speeders, is actually not too bad at dealing with this sort of list. Of course this is the Necron equivalent of spamming 4 Jotww guys and a pile of Long Fangs and Grey Hunters, ie the top unbalanced list in the top book is going to give issues to balanced armies in older books, especially when someone does deployment shennanigans like that. Exibit A for why 40k needs softs scores back, at least for a while.

Also, have you considered Whirlwinds? Indirect S5 AP4 does not care about where he is sitting on the table, as it pertains to night fight.
   
Made in us
Highlord of Terra






 Phazael wrote:
Exibit A for why 40k needs softs scores back, at least for a while.


Err, no. Soft scores are a terrible idea, and are little more than a flimsy justification for tournament organizers to punish anyone who doesn't play the game the way they want it to work. Or, if it's a player-scored system, to punish specific players and improve your own chances of winning. Until the 40k community demonstrates the ability to create a consistent, well-tested soft scoring system that is based on objective game balance instead of personal preferences the concept has no place in 40k.

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 Peregrine wrote:
 Phazael wrote:
Exibit A for why 40k needs softs scores back, at least for a while.


Err, no. Soft scores are a terrible idea, and are little more than a flimsy justification for tournament organizers to punish anyone who doesn't play the game the way they want it to work. Or, if it's a player-scored system, to punish specific players and improve your own chances of winning. Until the 40k community demonstrates the ability to create a consistent, well-tested soft scoring system that is based on objective game balance instead of personal preferences the concept has no place in 40k.


I can't say I agree entirely. Composition scores are a contentious issue, and what someone sees as overpowered, another person might see as a standard list.

But I think sports scores and painting scores (also generally considered soft scores) are important. There needs to be an official mechanism for punishing douchebags who break/bend the rules or otherwise act in an unsporting manner, and I've always maintained that a good event measures the ability of participants to paint and model, as well as play.

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 Kaldor wrote:
But I think sports scores and painting scores (also generally considered soft scores) are important. There needs to be an official mechanism for punishing douchebags who break/bend the rules or otherwise act in an unsporting manner, and I've always maintained that a good event measures the ability of participants to paint and model, as well as play.


Except that those don't work either.

Sportsmanship scores either don't mean anything because everyone gets full points unless they punch their opponent in the face, or are an excuse for TFG to be TFG and give all of their opponents a zero for sportsmanship to maximize their chances of winning. And of course they do nothing to address the question of list balance (which is supposedly why we need soft scores) since you can have flawless sportsmanship while playing the strongest possible list.

Painting scores do absolutely nothing to address balance issues because even the most powerful list can be fully painted. Meanwhile they're either incredibly subjective and lead to tournaments being decided by "I like that army's color scheme more", or reduce the entire thing to checking off a list of techniques (is NMM present, no matter how well it's used? +1 point).

Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

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 Peregrine wrote:
 Kaldor wrote:
But I think sports scores and painting scores (also generally considered soft scores) are important. There needs to be an official mechanism for punishing douchebags who break/bend the rules or otherwise act in an unsporting manner, and I've always maintained that a good event measures the ability of participants to paint and model, as well as play.


Except that those don't work either.

Sportsmanship scores either don't mean anything because everyone gets full points unless they punch their opponent in the face, or are an excuse for TFG to be TFG and give all of their opponents a zero for sportsmanship to maximize their chances of winning. And of course they do nothing to address the question of list balance (which is supposedly why we need soft scores) since you can have flawless sportsmanship while playing the strongest possible list.


Your only other alternative is to introduce ad-hoc punishments for douche-bags. Sure, everyone might get full points most of the time, but it's still an official mechanism which can be used to punish players who deserve it. It doesn't give players a chance to whine or contest their punishment.

I also don't think soft scores are good for adjusting list balance, but I think they're necessary for a fun and fair event.

Painting scores do absolutely nothing to address balance issues because even the most powerful list can be fully painted. Meanwhile they're either incredibly subjective and lead to tournaments being decided by "I like that army's color scheme more", or reduce the entire thing to checking off a list of techniques (is NMM present, no matter how well it's used? +1 point).


There's a certain logic to your point, but it's a bit of an exaggeration. Like saying 'well, the entire tournament was decided because someone rolled a 1 instead of a 2'. TO's are obviously free to organise their tournaments any way they want, but IMO an event which ignores painting scores, or does not incorporate painting scores into the over-all score is not one I want to attend. I think measuring the ability of the participant to model and paint is just as important as their ability to play well.

"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" 
   
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 Kaldor wrote:
Your only other alternative is to introduce ad-hoc punishments for douche-bags. Sure, everyone might get full points most of the time, but it's still an official mechanism which can be used to punish players who deserve it. It doesn't give players a chance to whine or contest their punishment.


Except that's how other competitive games do it. For example, in MTG you have judges running the event, and actual sportsmanship issues (cheating, abusive behavior, etc) will be punished specifically. And it works just fine, people who don't behave are removed from the event and everyone is happy.

There's a certain logic to your point, but it's a bit of an exaggeration. Like saying 'well, the entire tournament was decided because someone rolled a 1 instead of a 2'. TO's are obviously free to organise their tournaments any way they want, but IMO an event which ignores painting scores, or does not incorporate painting scores into the over-all score is not one I want to attend. I think measuring the ability of the participant to model and paint is just as important as their ability to play well.


Except that:

1) Measuring "ability to paint" is a subjective thing. Beyond a certain point (the basic techniques) it's just an aesthetic judgement about which work of art the judge happens to prefer. There's no objective standard to judge by, so the winner is determined solely by personal preference. That's fine in a specific painting competition, but I'm not going to attend a gaming tournament where I can win all of my games and still lose the tournament because the painting judge didn't like my choice of color scheme.

2) Trying to make it less subjective doesn't work. Checklist based systems don't actually measure artistic quality, they just check off whether you've done something. For example, if you've used NMM somewhere you get +1 point, even if your use of NMM doesn't really fit in well with the rest of the model or looks worse than just using metallic paints (which would not give you the +1 point). Similarly, many checklist systems I've seen give extra points for conversions, so even if your models don't need dramatic conversions to look good you get fewer points than the guy who glued Valkyrie wings on a Land Raider to make a "Stormraven" and claim the "large multi-kit conversion" points.

3) Painting scores don't actually measure ability to paint in a world where commission painting exists. The hobby is expensive enough as it is, tournaments shouldn't be decided by who had the most money to spend on hiring a better professional to paint their army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/28 23:18:18


Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

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 Peregrine wrote:
Except that's how other competitive games do it. For example, in MTG you have judges running the event, and actual sportsmanship issues (cheating, abusive behavior, etc) will be punished specifically. And it works just fine, people who don't behave are removed from the event and everyone is happy.


Perhaps, but almost every other competitive system on the planet has rules that govern behaviour, as well as rules that govern how the game is played. It is important in games like 40K to have a formalised and impartial system whereby people who are acting in an unsportsmanlike way can be punished. Otherwise, what incentive is there for players to NOT act in an unsportsmanlike way? Running down the clock, contesting claims, acting aggressively or inappropriately, etc. Do we have enough TO's, and enough time, to have an ad-hoc tribunal for every alleged 'offence'? To put up with players complaining that their offence wasn't in the rules, so isn't against them?

Everything just runs so much more smoothly when there is a formalised system.

1) Measuring "ability to paint" is a subjective thing. Beyond a certain point (the basic techniques) it's just an aesthetic judgement about which work of art the judge happens to prefer. There's no objective standard to judge by, so the winner is determined solely by personal preference. That's fine in a specific painting competition, but I'm not going to attend a gaming tournament where I can win all of my games and still lose the tournament because the painting judge didn't like my choice of color scheme.


If judging can be done in a specific painting competition, it can be done in a tournament. The only time it's ever going to come down to choice of colour scheme is if two armies are both painted and customised to the exact same level, and there is literally no other differences between them. If the only reason you go to tournaments is to play games, then that's your business, but a tournament that doesn't also measure how good someone is at the rest of the hobby is only half a tournament, IMO. I would never organise, nor ever attend, a tournament that spurned painting scores.

3) Painting scores don't actually measure ability to paint in a world where commission painting exists. The hobby is expensive enough as it is, tournaments shouldn't be decided by who had the most money to spend on hiring a better professional to paint their army.


I've never seen an entry/registration form that didn't ask if you painted your own army. Sure, you could lie about it, but you'd obviously be taking a risk if anyone knew you bought it.

"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" 
   
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 Kaldor wrote:
[ Do we have enough TO's, and enough time, to have an ad-hoc tribunal for every alleged 'offence'?


Other games deal with this problem just fine. If 40k TOs don't have the time or resources to provide proper judging they need to stop running tournaments.

If judging can be done in a specific painting competition, it can be done in a tournament. The only time it's ever going to come down to choice of colour scheme is if two armies are both painted and customised to the exact same level, and there is literally no other differences between them.


That's not true, because "the exact same level" is a meaningless concept. There isn't some clear hierarchy of painting techniques, there is a huge diversity of equally valid ways of painting an army. Some people prefer a clean and stylized look with strong highlights (like GW's own style), some people prefer a stylized look with NMM and exaggerated blending on every surface, some people prefer a hardcore realistic look with dull basic colors and dirt everywhere (like FW's masterclass books). None of them is "better" in some objective way, so which of them wins depends entirely on the fact that, say, the judge prefers the GW catalog style to the FW style.

This is fine in a painting contest where it's understood that the final winner is going to be determined by subjective preference between equally "good" entries, but not in a tournament where the intent is to find the "best" player.

I've never seen an entry/registration form that didn't ask if you painted your own army. Sure, you could lie about it, but you'd obviously be taking a risk if anyone knew you bought it.


Of course you could lie about it, but how is anyone going to catch you if you are smart enough to avoid telling anyone you paid someone to paint your stuff?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/29 00:29:09


Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

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 Peregrine wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
It doesn't say you have to put the weapon emplacements on the roof either, but that's seems to be what GW assumes people will do judging from the FAQ questions. And it does make sense seeing as it's an upgrade for the Bastion, not something you can add to the battlefield just for having a Bastion.


Exactly. It doesn't say you have to put them there, therefore you don't.

 Lobukia wrote:
The Bastion is a model. The upgrade (comm relay) has a spot on the model. You can't model for advantage and move it down 2 stories and next to the door. That's like putting a landraider's sponsons on the front of the vehicle instead of the sides or putting a stormraven's turret on the bottom instead of the top. Regardless you have to occupy the thing to use it.


Are we talking about the same bastion here? You know, the one where the picture in the book shows the comms relay sitting on the ground next to it?

And no, you don't have to occupy the building to use the upgrade, you have to be within 2" of it. Read the rules again.



Sigh, more trite from Peregrine.

The box you're referring to clearly shows an image of a bastion with a lascannon next to something that looks like a comm relay to you. I suppose you believe it's bastion that has both an icarus lascannon AND a comm relay.

More importantly, the building instruction insert that comes with the model shows the correct way to build the bastion, i.e. with the comm relay on the roof of the model. As Lobukia wrote, the comm relay is an upgrade to the model, not its own model. Any judge anywhere would agree.

Furthermore, I've been watching you nit pick both the game and the rules on this site since I've joined it, please get a life or at least learn to argue better.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/29 06:13:26


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 TheNameless wrote:


Sigh, more trite from Peregrine.

Unnecessary.

The box you're referring to clearly shows an image of a bastion with a lascannon next to something that looks like a comm relay to you. I suppose you believe it's bastion that has both an icarus lascannon AND a comm relay.


In the department of nitpicking we note that he did not refer to a "box", but rather a "book". One can safely assume he means the rulebook which contains the actual entry for the Bastion Fortification, in which the Comm Relay (or something that looks like it could be a Comm Relay) is standing next to the Bastion itself.

More importantly, the building instruction insert that comes with the model shows the correct way to build the bastion, i.e. with the comm relay on the roof of the model.


Building instructions are less than helpful in determining the rules. See Land Raider sponson placement and associated discussions for examples.

As Lobukia wrote, the comm relay is an upgrade to the model, not its own model.


Like additional crewmen for heavy weapons are an upgrade? A unit does not have to be a single model, nor does a fortification. See Aegis Defense Line or Fortress of Redemption for an example.

Any judge anywhere would agree.


That is a big assumption on your part.

Furthermore, I've been watching you nit pick both the game and the rules on this site since I've joined it, please get a life or at least learn to argue better.


Yeah....no. That is not necessary either.

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I'd argue that the Comm Relay must be placed on the building's roof, that's the only option that makes sense and it's also detailed in the building instructions.

Furthermore, if you wanted to argue otherwise, you could also buy a fort and place the Comm Relay about 20'' away because hey, nobody says you can't!

I disagree with bringing soft points back. Sure, TFG are people everyone hates on tournaments, but if they need that sort of compensation, let them be. The problem with soft scores is that they aren't objective.

I was a TO at a few tournaments with soft points and most of the time, people brought friends...who always scored very positively. Losers mostly scored their opponent lower while winners scored their opponent higher than others. It was a lot of hassle that wasn't really worth it.

An overall sportsmanship rating would not be a bad idea, but then again, word comes around. You got a TFG? Make his play the least fun you can. Let him become impatient, laugh at every mistake he makes, when he rolls bad etc. Do note that you should agree with others to do the same before pulling this off on your own. And, of course, be kind, forgiving and helpful to any actual cool players...worth more than a few points on a piece of paper

TFG players are the scum of the 40k community and should be treated as such.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/29 09:27:12


 
   
 
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