CSM RULES OUT

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**ZebioLizard2**

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
kcwm wrote:
Played my first game using Zombie spam. Yes, RAW is that you can't, but after discussing it, my group tentatively agrees that RAI is otherwise.

I ran the following:

·Typhus
·35 Plague Zombies x3
·10 Plague Marines in a Rhino with two Plasma Guns; Plague Champion with Melta Bombs and Gift of Mutation; All with Veterans of the Long War
·10 Chaos Bikers with Mark of Nurgle, Meltagun, Plasma Gun; Biker Champion with Power Fist and Plasma Pistol
·5 Havocs with 4 Missile Launchers; Two Flakk missiles; Aspiring Champion is the first to die.

One unit of 35 zombies was utterly decimated by two direct hits by frag missiles. Frag missiles...something most MEQ codices laugh at. I took 31 wounds. A 10 man group would have been blown to smithereens.

Another unit of 35 zombies tarpitted the hell out of a Blood Angels Assault Squad, but did little to them, what with T3, S3, and I3. The Assault Squad worked through them fairly well.

Typhus is amazing. He pulled a one shot kill on Dante.

I ended up conceding due to time and the fact that I was likely playing for a tie. I COULD have pulled out a win, but it was a kill point game and I had a lot of zombies left.

Anyone who thinks a unit of 35 zombies with FNP and Fearless is OP hasn't played them or against them. The BA player told me that he was initially worried about them and their sheer numbers, but once we started playing, they weren't nearly as intimidating.

The sky isn't falling. I feel like we have a pretty competitive codex. Granted, that could change after more games and more lists, but at this point in time, considering how much I've already looked it over and put list together, I don't see my opinion changing.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but RAW, you are not allowed to take zombie squads that number more than 10 (the original size of the squad). The reason being: the rules entry for zombies specifically states that no options can be taken for a squad converted into zombies. Adding members to a squad is listed under options.

It's not that 35 zombies are OP, I believe the opposite. But until we get a FAQ correcting this oversight, if it is one, then the list you provided is not a legal one.

If you had actually read his first line, you'd see that he knew that.

**FoxPhoenix135**

My apologies... I got up at 6AM this morning for the trip to the game store several towns over, and my brain isn't as resilient to sleep deprivation as it was when I was in uniform

**AlmightyWalrus**

Lovepug13 wrote:
Spartan089 wrote:
Rakeeb wrote:
The reason it's a mixed bag is because Chaos players want more raw power for tournaments. Don't play tournaments and you won't have that issue.

I personally advocate count as armies at this point, why should I have to avoid tournament play to have fun. What happens if I have fun playing tournaments and my book simply doesn't give me any options to be competitive. Even in casual play it does not change the issue. If there is an inherit large gap in power between two books then 2 casual army lists going at it still gives the edge to the stronger book. Last format a casual GK list was more than enough to wipe the floor with Lash Prince builds, let alone a fluffy chaos list. I don't see any changes for that in 6th, especially since this codex seems to be saying you can only build fluffy lists due to troop locks without a lord with the appropriate mark. This codex is dead out of the gate, at least in terms if you care to win in any type of competitive format.

I dont even want to be competitive or even win......I just wanted to be able to build something like a recognisable Alpha Legion / Iron Warriors / Night Lords army without having to take a pathetic HQ like Huron or Abbadon - I hate these models they are rubbish and older than dust.

So run a counts-as. Problem solved. And if you can't run Iron Warriors between all the new Daemon Engines and the Warpsmith you're doing it wrong.

**Palindrome**

Why can't you run an Alpha Legion or Night Lords army using the codex? You don't need fancy special rules to represent doctrinal differences that would only really be apparent on a strategic level, far above the scope of the 40k tabletop.

I quite like the new 'dex, there are some problems with it (I suspect that a FAQ will clear up a lot of the obvious mistakes) and some slightly odd costings but its a lot better than the old one

**jonolikespie**

Night Lords I think can be done, especially with the addition of the warp talons, but Alpha Legion has gone from lacking cultists and running lots of infiltrate/outflank to having cultists and lacking any form of infiltrate/outflank. I don't think it is too much to ask for both, all they'd have to have done is keep infiltrate on the chosen.

**H.B.M.C.**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So run a counts-as. Problem solved.

Not problem solved. 'Counts-As' isn't a solution, it's a stop-gap to a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place. People want to play their armies not a different army that all holds signs up in front of their face that say "We're only pretending to be Alpha Legion, but really we're Black Legion".

It'd be worse if Kharn was required for 'Zerkers as Troops, or Ahriman for 1KSons as troops - thankfully it never reached that stage - but do have some sympathy for the Chaos players who have Alpha Legion and Night Lords who can't do a close approximation to their force unlike the Word Bearer and Iron Warrior players that were at least handed a bone.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Palindrome wrote:
Why can't you run an Alpha Legion or Night Lords army using the codex? You don't need fancy special rules to represent doctrinal differences that would only really be apparent on a strategic level, far above the scope of the 40k tabletop.

Yeah, why should a codex have rules that represent the factions it is supposed to cover more effectively than rules contained in other codices? That's kind of asking for a lot, isn't it?

**Lovepug13**

This is my thoughts exactly.......if alpha legion doctrine for example could infiltrate up to 3 troop units it would be great

or a night lord "lord" made a unit of raptors troops - it would be great..... 2 x lords, 2 x 10 unit of raptors, 3 x warp talons.....win!!

I am just sick of GW turning out useless crap - I was fairly happy to drop money on new or even existing models to get something like above - but I can't even give them my money because the rules don't reflect what I want to build.

And for those who say "counts as" - I am not doing that - it is not for me.

I am really annoyed this time because GW could have got it right, I didn't want OP - I just wanted to build something to reflect my interests, tastes and ideas. groan

**gianlucafiorentini123**

Do Khorne Berzerkers lose or gain any wargear options?

**Lokas**

I lied when I said my previous question would be my last one.

Can chaos lords take bikes?

**Verd_Warr**

Zerkers can buy Chain axes.

Lords can buy bikes.

**Deadshot**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So run a counts-as. Problem solved.

"We're only pretending to be Alpha Legion, but really we're Black Legion".

That sounds like perfect Alp[ha Legion, because they really are Alpha Legion pretending to be Black Legion pretending to be Alpha Legion.

Alpha Legion and Night Lords who can't do a close approximation to their force unlike the Word Bearer and Iron Warrior players that were at least handed a bone.

Alpha Legion
HQs
Any HQ and hope for 3 on CSM Traits or go for any Strategic Trait/ Ahriman Counts as
Any other HQ
Elites
Chosen
Chosen
Chosen (Termies aren't really AL AFAIK)

Troops
1 unit of CSM
rest Troops are Cultists

FA
Warp Talons
Raptors
Raptors

HS
Havocs and Oblits (vehicles too clumsy for AL)

Night Lords
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack with Personal Traits or CSM Traits/ Any HQ (I prefer Lord)

Elites
Terminators decked out like feth

Troops
CSM and Cult Troops

FA
Warp Talons/Raptors x2
Heldrake

HS
3x Forgefiends

Perfect Terror list right there.

**Palindrome**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Yeah, why should a codex have rules that represent the factions it is supposed to cover more effectively than rules contained in other codices? That's kind of asking for a lot, isn't it?

How many Imperial Guard codices are there? After all the IG is by far the most diverse fighting force in the galaxy, with the possible exeception of Orks. You can't even give IG Sgts lasguns anymore.

You don't need special rules, all you need is a template with a reasonable degree of flexability and imagination.

**Lokas**

Verd_Warr wrote:
Lords can buy bikes.

Thank you kindly!

I'm pondering a Slaanesh force for my next army. Something like 4x 6 Noise Marines with sonic blasters, some bikes with some sort of tank-hunting or CC potential (lord goes hurr) and then something something anti air (havocs?) something something maybe Daemon allies something something.

**Lovepug13**

Alpha Legion and Night Lords who can't do a close approximation to their force unlike the Word Bearer and Iron Warrior players that were at least handed a bone.

Alpha Legion
HQs
Any HQ and hope for 3 on CSM Traits or go for any Strategic Trait/ Ahriman Counts as

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Palindrome wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Yeah, why should a codex have rules that represent the factions it is supposed to cover more effectively than rules contained in other codices? That's kind of asking for a lot, isn't it?

How many Imperial Guard codices are there? After all the IG is by far the most diverse fighting force in the galaxy, with the possible exeception of Orks. You can't even give IG Sgts lasguns anymore.

You don't need special rules, all you need is a template with a reasonable degree of flexability and imagination.

You misunderstand my point. What I'm saying is that when I can more accurately represent Alpha Legion using a combination of Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Grey Knights, allies and "counts as" than by using Codex: Chaos Space Marines and "counts as", then Codex: Chaos Space Marines has failed to properly represent Alpha Legion.

**Deadshot**

Lovepug wrote:
Great - So I spend all my time effort and money building something up and I have to hope for a dice roll to use it how I want - WIN

Uh, yeah, that's how the whole game works.

**Lovepug13**

Deadshot wrote:
Lovepug wrote:
Great - So I spend all my time effort and money building something up and I have to hope for a dice roll to use it how I want - WIN

Uh, yeah, that's how the whole game works.

I was referring to the d3 infltrate that I might get genius

**Kevlar**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Palindrome wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Yeah, why should a codex have rules that represent the factions it is supposed to cover more effectively than rules contained in other codices? That's kind of asking for a lot, isn't it?

How many Imperial Guard codices are there? After all the IG is by far the most diverse fighting force in the galaxy, with the possible exeception of Orks. You can't even give IG Sgts lasguns anymore.

You don't need special rules, all you need is a template with a reasonable degree of flexability and imagination.

You misunderstand my point. What I'm saying is that when I can more accurately represent Alpha Legion using a combination of Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Grey Knights, allies and "counts as" than by using Codex: Chaos Space Marines and "counts as", then Codex: Chaos Space Marines has failed to properly represent Alpha Legion.

Codex: Chaos Space marines can not represent any legion except death guard and black legion. Any other legion you are better off with a loyalist codex.

**Deadshot**

Lovepug13 wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Lovepug wrote:
Great - So I spend all my time effort and money building something up and I have to hope for a dice roll to use it how I want - WIN

Uh, yeah, that's how the whole game works.

I was referring to the d3 infltrate that I might get genius

Which is why I suggested either Ahriman Counts-as or any Strategic Trait, which suits Alpha Legion anyway.

**FallenAfh**

Lovepug13 wrote:

Alpha Legion and Night Lords who can't do a close approximation to their force unlike the Word Bearer and Iron Warrior players that were at least handed a bone.

Alpha Legion
HQs
Any HQ and hope for 3 on CSM Traits or go for any Strategic Trait/ Ahriman Counts as

Great - So I spend all my time effort and money building something up and I have to hope for a dice roll to use it how I want - WIN

**kcwm**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
I just have to ask: how in god's name do you take 31 wounds from two frag missiles? you can't even fit 10 models under a small blast plate

You can fit 13 under a small blast template. If you center the hole under it, it clips the bases of 13 figures. Do a google search, the images are out there.

The other player made two direct hits. That equals 26 wounds and the other deviated to make up the rest.

I didn't space them out. I made it as easy as possible for me to move 105 units. I also didn't think about the placement of my bikes. I was working under a pretty tight time limit.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
[quote=kcwm 479921 4844829 6c7d7834021336438904374a21d5712a.png

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but RAW, you are not allowed to take zombie squads that number more than 10 (the original size of the squad). The reason being: the rules entry for zombies specifically states that no options can be taken for a squad converted into zombies. Adding members to a squad is listed under options.

It's not that 35 zombies are OP, I believe the opposite. But until we get a FAQ correcting this oversight, if it is one, then the list you provided is not a legal one.

Another poster pointed it out, but I thought I'd reiterate for anyone else, our group recognizes that RAW says you can't take options, which includes adding models to a unit. We believe that RAI is that you CAN take 35. I have a list made up should I play in a tournament or play someone who doesn't agree...hell, it's likely better than the list that I ran last night. For our friendly games, our playing group is OK with it.

There's been discussion by people that believe that RAI is for zombies to be limited to 10 that 35 zombies with Fearless and FNP are too powerful, unfair, or unbalanced. After playing with them, I disagree. If RAI is determined to actually be 10, it's such an incredible limitation, given their stat line, that I won't run zombies. I doubt that's their intention.

I do find it interesting that GW still hasn't FAQ'd other codices to have Flakk missiles. I wonder how long it's going to take for that to be FAQ'd.

**Kevlar**

kcwm wrote:
Luke_Prowler wrote:
I just have to ask: how in god's name do you take 31 wounds from two frag missiles? you can't even fit 10 models under a small blast plate

You can fit 13 under a small blast template. If you center the hole under it, it clips the bases of 13 figures. Do a google search, the images are out there.

The other player made two direct hits. That equals 26 wounds and the other deviated to make up the rest.

I didn't space them out. I made it as easy as possible for me to move 105 units. I also didn't think about the placement of my bikes. I was working under a pretty tight time limit.

That isn't 26 wounds, it is 26 hits even though I find that hard to belive. You still get cover and FNP saves too. So 2/3 wound, 2/3 cover, 2/3 FNP mean even 26 hits is only 7 unsaved wounds. You are either exaggerating or full of it.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Kevlar wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Palindrome wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Yeah, why should a codex have rules that represent the factions it is supposed to cover more effectively than rules contained in other codices? That's kind of asking for a lot, isn't it?

How many Imperial Guard codices are there? After all the IG is by far the most diverse fighting force in the galaxy, with the possible exeception of Orks. You can't even give IG Sgts lasguns anymore.

You don't need special rules, all you need is a template with a reasonable degree of flexability and imagination.

You misunderstand my point. What I'm saying is that when I can more accurately represent Alpha Legion using a combination of Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Grey Knights, allies and "counts as" than by using Codex: Chaos Space Marines and "counts as", then Codex: Chaos Space Marines has failed to properly represent Alpha Legion.

Codex: Chaos Space marines can not represent any legion except death guard and black legion. Any other legion you are better off with a loyalist codex.

Or Iron Warriors... or Emperor's Children... or World Eaters... or Word Bearers... or Thousand Sons.

Seriously, what's up with Chaos players being so full of gloom (was gonna write that a lot harsher, but you get the point)? You get a new Codex with loads of options and awesome models and all you do is go "oh, but this one unit in this Codex is better than unit A and this other unit from a completely different Codex is better than unit B, so we're mad!". The book has been out for one day. Give it a few weeks (at least) and stop whining about how you can't come up with any way to make a specific Legion with the myriads of options available.

**Kevlar**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Seriously, what's up with Chaos players being so full of gloom (was gonna write that a lot harsher, but you get the point)? You get a new Codex with loads of options and awesome models and all you do is go "oh, but this one unit in this Codex is better than unit A and this other unit from a completely different Codex is better than unit B, so we're mad!". The book has been out for one day. Give it a few weeks (at least) and stop whining about how you can't come up with any way to make a specific Legion with the myriads of options available.

There is nothing in the chaos codex that would let you appropriately field any of those legions.

Iron warriors are better off playing a traitor guard codex with allied CSM.

Emperors Children? With the chaos codex? You do realize that sonic weapons were nerfed from assault to salvo? Which means the fastest chaos cult can no longer shoot and assault? Play counts as Grey Knights, psybolt ammo and psycannons more accurately represent sonic weapons than the ones in the chaos codex. Hell the generic storm bolters are equal to the old sonic blaster (and cheaper)!

World Eaters? Chaos has no assault delivery vehicles. Play Blood angels and get storm ravens, drop pods, decent of angels, scoring assault marines...

Word Bearers? Chaos codex has no demonic support at all. Not one rule. Play codex chaos demons and get better demons with eternal warrior.

Thousand Sons? The weakest cult stays weak. No heavy weapons, no overwatch, no nothing really.

**Lovepug13**

^^^^^ This lol ^^^^^^^

**AlmightyWalrus**

Kevlar wrote:

Iron warriors are better off playing a traitor guard codex with allied CSM.

Or, you know, CSM with allied Guard. Just because they prefer heavy weapons doesn't change the fact that they're marines with heavy weapons, not tons of guardsmen with a few marines sprinkled in.

Kevlar wrote:

Emperors Children? With the chaos codex? You do realize that sonic weapons were nerfed from assault to salvo? Which means the fastest chaos cult can no longer shoot and assault? Play counts as Grey Knights, psybolt ammo and psycannons more accurately represent sonic weapons than the ones in the chaos codex. Hell the generic storm bolters are equal to the old sonic blaster (and cheaper)!

Yeah, because S8 AP3 cover-ignoring shots are bad... You get a metric crapton of shots at 24" and an amazing overwatch. You get FNP on scoring units.

Kevlar wrote:
World Eaters? Chaos has no assault delivery vehicles. Play Blood angels and get storm ravens, drop pods, decent of angels, scoring assault marines...

Land Raiders don't exist anymore? Also, why would you need scoring Assault Marines when you can get essentially the same thing for 13 PPM, but with access to marks?

Kevlar wrote:

Word Bearers? Chaos codex has no demonic support at all. Not one rule. Play codex chaos demons and get better demons with eternal warrior.

Allies? Also, last I looked CSM Daemon Princes now have access to Biomancy, AKA "I'm a FMC that's going to do nasty things to you now". Word Bearers aren't Daemons, they're Marines WITH Daemons, so I fail to see how that list is better met with the Daemons Codex alone.

Kevlar wrote:

Thousand Sons? The weakest cult stays weak. No heavy weapons, no overwatch, no nothing really.

Again, you have a metric crapton of options on your CSM. Use them!

**Lord Magnus**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Kevlar wrote:

Iron warriors are better off playing a traitor guard codex with allied CSM.

Or, you know, CSM with allied Guard. Just because they prefer heavy weapons doesn't change the fact that they're marines with heavy weapons, not tons of guardsmen with a few marines sprinkled in.

Kevlar wrote:

Emperors Children? With the chaos codex? You do realize that sonic weapons were nerfed from assault to salvo? Which means the fastest chaos cult can no longer shoot and assault? Play counts as Grey Knights, psybolt ammo and psycannons more accurately represent sonic weapons than the ones in the chaos codex. Hell the generic storm bolters are equal to the old sonic blaster (and cheaper)!

Yeah, because S8 AP3 cover-ignoring shots are bad... You get a metric crapton of shots at 24" and an amazing overwatch. You get FNP on scoring units.

Kevlar wrote:
World Eaters? Chaos has no assault delivery vehicles. Play Blood angels and get storm ravens, drop pods, decent of angels, scoring assault marines...

Land Raiders don't exist anymore? Also, why would you need scoring Assault Marines when you can get essentially the same thing for 13 PPM, but with access to marks?

Kevlar wrote:

Word Bearers? Chaos codex has no demonic support at all. Not one rule. Play codex chaos demons and get better demons with eternal warrior.

Allies? Also, last I looked CSM Daemon Princes now have access to Biomancy, AKA "I'm a FMC that's going to do nasty things to you now". Word Bearers aren't Daemons, they're Marines WITH Daemons, so I fail to see how that list is better met with the Daemons Codex alone.

Kevlar wrote:

Thousand Sons? The weakest cult stays weak. No heavy weapons, no overwatch, no nothing really.

Again, you have a metric crapton of options on your CSM. Use them!

You, sir, are amazing.

You don't complain about the "mediocrity" of this codex, instead you show how the 6th edition allies system, plus the new Chaos codex (which I think is great by the way)can make fantastic representations of the legions.

The only legion you can make basically ANY complaint for is Alpha Legion, though you could probably still pull off an Alpha Legion army, with some work.

Stop whining, the new dex has cool models, cool rules, and a lot of awesome options

outside of Daemon Weapons, as well as a SLIGHT (But not game breaking) Daemon Prince nerf, there is really NOTHING WRONG with this codex, but because it didn't turn out exactly how you pictured the units you want doesn't mean you have to have a whine-fest about it. Enjoy the hobby, ask your local gaming group if you can use a couple custom units, and learn to make the most of your hobby, and if it really makes you this pissed off or annoyed, DON'T PLAY THE GAME.

**Captain Roderick**

I'm just going to throw this into the mix:
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/10/03/6th-edition-chaos-codex-first-impressions/

I'm personally in the camp that says 'my chosen fluffy play style has been nerfed/removed where it existed in previous chaos codices, and it would be nice if CSM were closer to parity with Grey Knights and Necrons.'

It was really interesting to listen to this though - these guys have a different take, they're looking at it from a fresh perspective, not what could I do before that I now cannot, but what can I do now that's awesome, what direction will chaos armies go in on the tournament scene etc? They've even got a few workarounds. Sure, nobody wants to do workarounds, they want to have the options and pay a fair number of points, but have a listen anyway. It's the usual situation that we've gotta buy new stuff, but it's not the end of the world.

**ZebioLizard2**

Yeah, because S8 AP3 cover-ignoring shots are bad... You get a metric crapton of shots at 24" and an amazing overwatch. You get FNP on scoring units.

The first requires up to 10 models, a tax on the unit itself though the weapon is still probably the nicest upgrade, the second is still bolter stats, is it useful in some cases? Sure, some armies fear it, but not many people actually fear bolters, especially one that cannot hit you while moving well. The last one is nice, but it can be sniped out compared to Nurgles troops.

I cannot represent lashs on the lord, cannot give my lord a sonic gun or Doom Siren, a slaaneshi daemon weapon, cannot take gifts that dedicate him specifically to slaanesh, cannot put him in a squad to benefit from his mount (I would've loved if they could've mounted up Chosen..), what I really wanted was some new wargear that wasn't a complete removal of most of the daemon weapons, and adding of chaos artifacts, some are nice..But they were the only thing added.

In short, sure you can make a "Somewhat" partial dex of it, but what most of us truly want in actuality is our own sort of codex, we barely gained any wargear options in this dex, and some things are just somewhat silly. Some things could've gone a long way to helping things (Marks for Vehicles) or just general understanding, the problem is people don't always just want competitive, they want to be able to make the army they enjoy. Kinda like how IG complained after losing their drop troops and scoring stormtroopers and all that back when 5th edition IG hit.

Unless there's a chapter approved sorta thing that'll grant us the ability to make fully mono armies, you'll probably see complaining for a while, then pained acceptance.