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I heard that someone brought weighted dice to BeakyCon but wasn't disqualified. Could we get some confirmation?

What do you guys think should happen when people use altered dice in tournaments?

Instant ejection and shamed in public so they don't get to ruin other events. All willful cheaters should get this treatment.

Yea, I made this thread less for a shaming of BeakyCon than for a discussion of responses to cheating. I'm sure that my buddy is wrong and they took serious action probably with a disqualification. I wouldn't let someone keep playing after they decided to cheat like that. There isn't even an argument of ignorance or anything like that, you have to put effort into finding weighted dice or do it yourself.

The question is whether there should be repercussions outside of that event. Maybe even a possible blacklisting from other events. If these were small events just for props I would just ban him from the event, but these big tournaments with actual prizes of serious monetary value should be regulated a bit more stringently.

Someone who knowingly and intentionally cheats (so not "different rules interpretation," but rather "loaded dice") should be banned from that event and perhaps others. Cheaters are a a stain on the hobby.

Agreed, and with the kind of money that goes into prize support for these events, kinda looks like fraud. Hopefully we can get a post from the Beaky guys here about who this guy is and what they did about this.

Well they'll only comment if its really worthwhile. You 'heard that this had happened'. Who from? A mate of yours who attended it? An organizer speaking anonymously?

There was found one loaded die used to roll for deployment during the beginning of that game. The game was then immediately stopped and the dice was examined by the judges and determined it was loaded - there was a weighted plate on one side. The player was disqualified for that game and no longer eligible for any awards however they were allowed to play their remaining games - no further incidents arose that we are aware of with that player.

Pathetic . You guys were a lot more charitable in letting him continue to play than I would have been. Then again, from the player perspective, if I ever did decide to blatantly cheat, I'd probably not want to show my face after getting caught.

Mark

A bit weak, but at least it was something. Could we get his name in case we run prize events at PAX or anything?

mreindl wrote:
Pathetic . You guys were a lot more charitable in letting him continue to play than I would have been. Then again, from the player perspective, if I ever did decide to blatantly cheat, I'd probably not want to show my face after getting caught.

Mark

How is that pathetic? If they ejected him, then one guy would get a by, which wouldn't be far to that guy who showed up, payed to play, then gets to sit around for a couple hours.

He couldn't win the tournament. Good enough for me.

I think 'pathetic' was aimed at the player caught cheating, not the organizers decision; at least, that was my read of it.

 Happygrunt wrote:

mreindl wrote:
Pathetic . You guys were a lot more charitable in letting him continue to play than I would have been. Then again, from the player perspective, if I ever did decide to blatantly cheat, I'd probably not want to show my face after getting caught.

Mark

How is that pathetic? If they ejected him, then one guy would get a by, which wouldn't be far to that guy who showed up, payed to play, then gets to sit around for a couple hours.

He couldn't win the tournament. Good enough for me.

Ridiculous, So the reason for not punishing them by Complete Disqualification as a Morally Objectionable Cheat, is that it's unfair to everyone else that someone else (4 others to be exact) will get a by? The TO were indeed pathetic, bad judgement is one thing, failure to conduct your primary responsibilites when called upon is negligence.

You have to make an example or else you are just opening the doors for more of this shenanigans. I would have walked out of the tournament in protest at the TO decisison, if I was present. Furthermore in my experience most tournaments have 2-3 Standby players for no-shows or illness so usually an "Auto-by" is a none issue etc.

Your points are breathtaking in their naivety.

They might not have had enough extra players. In the other thread they mentioned some attendance problems so were a man down for the tournament. The big thing is, this guy can't go to events that have prizes or prestige attached, like Adepticon. If we can't keep our own games clean it delegitimizes the hobby. Events should start publicizing who cheats so that we don't have to deal with it in the future.

 Happygrunt wrote:

mreindl wrote:
Pathetic . You guys were a lot more charitable in letting him continue to play than I would have been. Then again, from the player perspective, if I ever did decide to blatantly cheat, I'd probably not want to show my face after getting caught.

Mark

How is that pathetic? If they ejected him, then one guy would get a by, which wouldn't be far to that guy who showed up, payed to play, then gets to sit around for a couple hours.

He couldn't win the tournament. Good enough for me.

That makes sense to me. Avoids punishing 3 other guys who paid to get there.

And we all know it's not the cheating that's wrong, it's getting caught I'm being flippant of course but people are over-reacting. If a grown adult wants to cheat at a game of toy soldiers, that deserves pity, not over-the-top rage.

Furthermore blatant cheating (i.e. in a situation where there's a good chance you're going to get caught out) can be a sign of mental illness, particularly thinking of the "manic" or "upper" side of some mood disorders.

Veteran Sergeant Beaky wrote:
The player was disqualified for that game and no longer eligible for any awards however they were allowed to play their remaining games - no further incidents arose that we are aware of with that player.

Wow, you really showed him...

He should have been asked to leave the event and his name posted on every web forum you could think of.


All you have taught him is that he has to get better at hiding his cheatng next time...

So how far into this tournament did this guy go before this was discovered? Its such a hard decision when something like this comes about as a TO because youre gonna be damned if you damned if you dont. I think they made the right call keeping him only because of the other players but what if he showed up with a whole cube of dice and that was his only dice?

I was at that event and it was one of my friends who caught him with the die. Coincidently he turned out to be my 1st opponent the next day and to be fair, there were no sportsman issues during that game.

I was not aware at the time that who I was playing was the same person, which is the only thing that bothered me. I feel that if they had such an attendance issue to allow him to play... They could have at least let me know so I could decide if i wanted to elect to expose myself to further possible shennanigans. As mentioned above, we didn't have any issues, but there could very well have been.

As to wether the punishment is effective or not, consider for a moment that the event ran on a win/lose system. Only the ones who had an undefeated record by the end of the 1st day had a chance of winning anything and he just had an automatic lose. So to me it wasn't really a punishment so what is to stop him trying it again at another event?

Whoopxi wrote:
I was at that event and it was one of my friends who caught him with the die. Coincidently he turned out to be my 1st opponent the next day and to be fair, the were no sportsman issues during that game.

I was not aware at the time that who I was playing was the same person, which is the only thing that bothered me. I feel that if they had such an attendance issue to allow him to play... They could have at least let me know so I could decide if i wanted to elect to expose myself to further possible shennanigans. As mentioned above, we didn't have any issues, but there could very well have been.

As to wether the punishment is effective or not, consider for a moment that the event ran on a win/lose system. Only the ones who had an undefeated by the end of 1st day had a chance of winning anything and he just had am automatic lose. So to me it wasn't really a punishment so what is to stop him trying it again at another event?

I guess a tar and feathering could have pointed him out better?

It's a difficult thing, naming and shaming, when it's anecdotal and we don't know if it's a young player who might reform himself later.

I think the TO's decision makes sense with an even number of players. If it were me, and I had any drops later in the event, I would then ask the cheater to leave. He'd also get an email after the event, in either case, letting him know the final decision on his offense. If it was a teenager who I thought was taking the shame and embarassment constructively, I might let him come back the following year and not shame him publicly. If it's an adult, or a kid showing no remorse, then permanent ban, optionally with public naming if it seemed like he might be a risk to other events. The TO has to make the call based on their knowledge of the person, the feedback of the people actually involved, and the damage done to their event.

I would imagine there are also legal issues to consider when it comes to private citizens and doing anything public with their details.

 Compel wrote:
I would imagine there are also legal issues to consider when it comes to private citizens and doing anything public with their details.

Indeed, there is.

I think the defence of it spoils 3-4 peoples games is nonsense, so by definition you have given him a warning and allowed him to stay so you are leaving someone who already has a track record of cheating in the system to play further games with no guarantee of him to now abide by the rules. This is arguably destroying the integrity of the Tournament.

If you commit fraud saying "I'll pay back all the money" doesn't mean you get let off, you still committed an illegal act. This offence isn't a legal issue because it is war gaming, a social hobby with certain levels of decorum. It is however an Integrity issue, once lost Integrity is almost impossible to regain.

This acts as no deterent whatsoever, because if you act like this, "well they'll let you stay on because it will ruin the even numbers, so hell why not do it".

The decision was a weak one, that lack moral backbone, I for one, do not condone this course of action. I would not allow this under any circumstances, it besmirches those who obey the rules, and effects league table results. Why should a man with Integrity who loses 5 games fair square, be below a cheat who wins 2 out of 5 games? It is a weak argument anyway you cut it.

He was no longer able to get any sort of awards and lost the game in a tournament where its all about win/loss. That effectively ended his tournament chances.

Now I would rather know the person who did this so I can look out for any future shenanigans.

 thehod wrote:
He was no longer able to get any sort of awards and lost the game in a tournament where its all about win/loss. That effectively ended his tournament chances.

Now I would rather know the person who did this so I can look out for any future shenanigans.

But Winning isn't the point, it besmirches the League table and all legitimate players. It's not even winning or his chances of winning, not everyone enters a tournament to win, but it should be an accurate representation of their personal performance on the day. With a Cheater the League and results become skewed.

By the same Definition anyone who fails a Drug test at the Olympics, if they didn't win Gold, Silver or Bronze "well it all worked out anyway, they didn't win why take any action". We all know this is not the case, the level playing field is the thing that is key to a fair, competitive Tournament. People go to beat their personal bests, they celebrate that they were in the top half of the table or top 3, there is so much more than just coming 1st. They celebrate when they have achieved greater than their expectations, or done particularly well with a particular Build list.

I want to know how they figured out a single die was weighted! That is some serious powers of observation to pick out the single die is weighted. Unless it was a completely different die that he always used for going first. Which would be plain stupid, even more than cheating already is.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
I want to know how they figured out a single die was weighted! That is some serious powers of observation to pick out the single die is weighted. Unless it was a completely different die that he always used for going first. Which would be plain stupid, even more than cheating already is.

It was figured out during deployment.

"Okay, roll for Table Half. I got a 4."
"Six."
"Okay, roll for number of objectives."
"Six. So +3."
"Okay, roll for who deploys first, I got a 6. Yay!"
"Six."
"Oh, okay, reroll. I got a 4 this time."
"Six."
"Oookay. Go ahead and roll for your psychic powers."
"Okay, rolling on Telepathy. First roll, Hallucination! Yes. Second roll, Hallucination again! Let me reroll that. Damn, Hallucination again. Let me switch dice for a second."
"Good idea. HEY JUDGE!"

If it's got a weighted plate on one side it may have been obvious. When I was a teenager a friend of mine bought a novelty set of weighted 3d6 at a D&D convention, nicknamed "character builders", because you rolled your character ability scores on 3d6. They were so heavily weighted that they had an obvious visible wobble when rolled, and if you gave them a good long roll on an unobstructed surface, they were almost guaranteed to come up sixes. The offender may have used something that obvious, which his opponent could have picked out as fishy just by seeing it rolled.

Some content redacted by Mannahnin

If TO's want to avoid this type of thing in the future then just make part of the agreement for entering a tournament is that you are allowing the Tournament Organizers to publicly list your name if you are caught cheating and what type of cheating was taking place. That would handle this.

Just let this thread die of natural causes.

Yeah, I think we've covered as much discussion as we can, constructively.