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Pretty awesome they re-opened! Nice little Christmas bonus

Though as a heads up, a few items ended up being cheaper at retail than KS1 prices, mostly the mounted guys and Xontor. Not sure if they lowered the price in the KS section to match the retail. The sweet spot is a great deal though

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Pretty awesome they re-opened! Nice little Christmas bonus

Though as a heads up, a few items ended up being cheaper at retail than KS1 prices, mostly the mounted guys and Xontor. Not sure if they lowered the price in the KS section to match the retail. The sweet spot is a great deal though

Yeah, nothing is as low as the 50% off for the Sweet Spot.

Awesome! I just sent an email to get in on the deal.

Welcome, there is no escape.

Once you've started collecting Mierce you kinda start to care a lot less about other models.

Pretty interesting to see how well they've done out from under the Maelstrom stigma.

 judgedoug wrote:
Once you've started collecting Mierce you kinda start to care a lot less about other models.

ABSOLUTELY true!

I cashed out of WFB once I started going all in with Darklands stuff...

...anyway, welcome!

I just started building my new computer and this happens!


It's not fair to be forced to choose....

This is a limited time offer.

Are any of the bits for your computer time limited?

Problem solved!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm just glad there's no crocodile man sweet spot, or I'd be in trouble!

 judgedoug wrote:
Once you've started collecting Mierce you kinda start to care a lot less about other models.

And once you start actually putting them together, you start to care a whole lot more

Seriously, I'm still in love with their big monsters, but for small models I feel like their quality of casting and fit does not hold a candle to some other boutique resin companies. (Kingdom Death comes to mind as the best of the best, but there are many I would rank above Mierce in this regard)

It is awesome that they enlist top sculpting talent, but to make a truly high end product, they have to get a final result to the end user that is well crafted. I think their casting is extremely well suited to large models, but again for man-sized models, I'm not convinced based on the almost 20 models I have from them at this size.

 RiTides wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Once you've started collecting Mierce you kinda start to care a lot less about other models.

And once you start actually putting them together, you start to care a whole lot more

Seriously, I'm still in love with their big monsters, but for small models I feel like their quality of casting and fit does not hold a candle to some other boutique resin companies. (Kingdom Death comes to mind as the best of the best, but there are many I would rank above Mierce in this regard)

It is awesome that they enlist top sculpting talent, but to make a truly high end product, they have to get a final result to the end user that is well crafted. I think their casting is extremely well suited to large models, but again for man-sized models, I'm not convinced based on the almost 20 models I have from them at this size.

Really? Interesting. I've got about, hmm, ten man-sized models, and they've been great. Specifically, all the man-sized Fomoraic characters that currently exist, have been a breeze to assemble and are exquisitely sculpted and detailed.

I've not had a great record with fit and mould slip, I see where RTides is coming from.

 Baragash wrote:
I've not had a great record with fit and mould slip, I see where RTides is coming from.

Maybe Mierce loves me! I've only had to pin larger models - in fact I didn't pin my Sronax at all - and use only minimal greenstuff.

Here's Galagaak, almost done with him. I'm painting all of my Fomoraic dudes as albinos.

Just to clarify that judgedoug, I actually didn't mean to infer that you hadn't assembled models, just that it was something I hadn't realized until assembling some. I've only gotten through 10 of the ones I have, it is quite daunting! Whereas the large monsters of theirs I have assembled have been as you say, a breeze.

I think another great comparison point would be the recent Arena Rex resin models, which by all accounts are amazing casts (I have one in the mail to me right now). I just think it's worth noting that while Mierce always displays incredible greens, there are / have been some issues with fit and casting results on the final product, although this obviously varies depending on the sculpt.

I mentioned this last page, but the man-sized lizard models (Ágriosávra, Myrkanio, and Eikovra) that I just built quite a few of (multiples of each since I'm running them as a counts-as unit for another system) were by far the hardest models of that size to assemble that I have ever encountered. And I have worked with resin models from quite a range of companies. I have a few other human models and they look to be easier - so I think it varies depending on the sculpt. However, I've seen this noted by others before and it doesn't seem to have really gotten noticed, so I think it's worth pointing out for people to keep in mind.

Again though, I'm referring to their small casts, not the monsters, which I've had nothing but fantastic results with.

 RiTides wrote:

Again though, I'm referring to their small casts, not the monsters, which I've had nothing but fantastic results with.

Oh, sure - like I said I mainly have the Fomoraic man-sized models, and those have been easy - and most of those are older. Perhaps it's that newer sculpts aren't cut for casting as well, or are maybe more complicated than many of the older sculpts?
But thanks for the heads up on those guys at least

The Savrar are a good example of badly fitting MIerce minis. Those buggers are daunting to say the least. Lots of GS to get everything to work. I didn't just have to fill gaps, but there are quite a few bits that, frankly, just don't line up.

Also, some of the mold lines on smaller models are really tricky to get rid of without taking out a bunch of detail.

I read RiTides post and I knew immediately he was talking about the Sarvar. I absolutely agree. They look great, but they took a lot of TLC to get put together nicely.

Anything on a 50mm base or bigger? Awesomesauce. No real issues other than my own clumsiness, ineptitude, and lack of skill as a painter/ modeler.

Yeah, the little guys are delicate. The other night I was putting together the Duguth and their feet kept falling off. One fell on the floor and disappeared, I'd pretty much given up the model as scrap. Next morning I found it under the skirting board. Lucky me. I'm getting a dab hand with the Dremel.

As I looked at my remaining models I thought to myself "At least the ankles are the weakest points on the miniatures. It's not like any of them have their delicate little fingers outstretched, I mean that would be .....Oh balls, Aldhelm!"

Glad to hear I'm not alone/crazy regarding those models! Obviously, it could be the particular sculptor, too - but the Arena Rex model in the mail to me is also by Roberto Chaudon, so if it goes together easily, that would make me think it's not his doing.

I signed up for this deal, its to good to pass up. Now to decide on what I want...

Getting the arms, hands, weapon and horns on Aradae Mawr to all fit together, not get in each other's way, and looking good is right royal PITA!

Just compared another Roberto Chaudon sculpt last night to these (his Mago sclupt for Arena Rex). It goes together just fine, and the pegs look crisp and actually match up really well with the holes.

Since none of that was the case on the savrar for Mierce, I think the problem is on the casting end rather than the sculpt.

Have you PM'd/e-mailed Mierce directly with your opinions/findings?

I'd be curious to hear their response, and see that, hopefully, they're aware of it and looking to improve it going forward.

RE; the Savrar characters.

They are a bit fiddly to assemble I'm afraid. It's nothing to do with the casting - the casting only makes a copy of what is already there. These guys are very detailed sculpts in dynamic poses across a x, y & z axis and with lots of sharp spines, fins etc jutting out here and there creating a wealth of undercuts and snags for moulding - hence they are in a LOT of parts for what are circa 35mm models. They are in as many parts as a regular 50/60mm mini by Roberto.

Roberto is a great sculptor and isn't one for compromising pose/details to cut down on parts (nor do we usually encourage him to cut down, it's why he's so great at nailing concepts) - we could have made them in less parts and compromised on the poses a little but as they are characters we thought what the hell - people will only typically have one each of these guys in Darklands.......

I LOVE the Savrar minis though I also swore a bit assembling one ( I certainly didn't plan on assembling a unit of ten Agriosavras though!) - we'll look at what we can do in future with these guys - the tails, spines, open jaws etc don't make for simple miniatures - though if you look at the previewed concepts for the Savrar unit you will see they are simpler than the characters.

I think some of the pegs may be out by a fraction of a millimetre on some of the Savrar components (though on smaller minis I usually snip off the peg and pin instead for extra durability)- they are added after the mini is cut and on a smaller mini a small error is more noticeable. Again, note that casting doesn't make the pegs or holes move any - casting just copies what is already present. I'll look at our resin masters of these guys with a view to snipping off the pegs (not really needed on small minis) to aid alignment or moving them/shaving them a little.

As far as ease of casting/casting quality goes - on the whole larger models give you more difficulty than smaller ones - there's more things that can go wrong, especially mould shift (as the mould is bigger/heavier). Our larger models give us more issues than smaller ones so I would say the recent topic/posts are more anecdotal, though yes a bad mould line on a small mini is more of a pain to clean up - but also bare in mind that although we QC our minis we cast 1000s of parts a month and mistakes happen - we do have an excellent replacement service, all we ask for is a photo so we can identify the part and issue. You'll struggle to spot a mould line on some of our smaller minis at all as we have some nifty tricks with them - but errors happen especially when you cast as many resin minis as we do - outside of FW I'm not sure if anyone ships as many wargaming (proper)resin minis/parts every month, month in, month out as we do and we do all of our moulding and casting is in-house - not bad for a small company!

It's inevitable that some complaints will occur and we handle them all soon as we can and with respect - all we ask is for a photo if there's a suspect cast so we can spot any potential issues and of course correctly identify the part (the amount of times people have said a left arm is missing and we send them one only for them to say 'oh it was the right arm missing' ). Our complaint ratio is less than 1% of all parts shipped and the majority of that <1% are missing parts/bases and packing errors as opposed to casting errors.

Were always available to discuss any casting queries/missing parts - please bare in mind that although we do check this thread it's only once a week if that (we have to cast these minis you know!) so please use
parts@mierce-miniatures.com if you need a replacement/something is missing. (we check the email account twice a day - morning and afternoon UK time) - we're also more active on our KS comments threads if you have a query regarding anything from a KS - PM us there. We respond quicker.

TLDR; Savrar - bit fiddly, yes. We'll see if we can sort the peg alignments for future moulds.


Timmy @ Mierce.

Thanks for the thorough reply!

Just a few notes, I agree that mold slip is a bigger problem on large minis in general. My Sea Devil from Mierce certainly had very noticeable mold lines, unlike the savrar. But the fit of its joints was much better.

Does the sculptor add the pegs for assembly, or the caster? I only ask because the pegs on Mago, also by Roberto Chaudon, look completely different than the savrar.

Same question regarding cutting up the mini - is it the sculptor who does this, or the caster, in your case? I have heard both for other companies, so not sure how you approach it, or if it depends on the miniature. The savrar are complex, sure, but I'm not sure that a really ace resin caster couldn't have done them in significantly less pieces. Much more important is the fit of those pieces together, though, and as you say I did indeed snip off basically every peg and greenstuff all joints.

Once again, thanks for the thorough reply, and for looking into this!

I said it when they were released, but I'll say it again- the CG printed Khthon were some of the smoothest to put together. Pegs all went exactly where they were supposed to, and were just the right size. I didn't have to file and fiddle with them.

All this Savrar talk has made me absolutely determined to get the rest of mine put together before the year's end, once I'm off from work. I just need to clear some space off my desk first!

No probs - happy to help.

The cuts/pegs or 'junctions' are always carried out by the sculptor(s). Where they make the cuts is at my request, though most of our sculptors know by now where we'll require them. Though we'll often discuss cuts before sculpting in many cases, particularly on more complex minis. If you have some assembly pegs that look a little different on two or more sculpts by the same sculptor - that's down to how the sculptor felt like sculpting them that day.

The savrar are complex, sure, but I'm not sure that a really ace resin caster couldn't have done them in significantly less pieces

Sometimes we'll have a sculpt in more pieces - not because it can't be cast like that - but because the moulds would last longer if there's more pieces. The Savrar for example could all have their lower jaws on the head - but the moulds would tear much sooner (a lot of the spikes on the Savrar will scratch the inside of the mould leaving scrapes on future casts) . We are 'really ace resin casters' btw and it's not a matter of 'being really ace' (or not) in this case (we can cast pretty much anything without a single cut made to the sculpt, though you might only get single digit casts from that mould) - it's down to maximising production. We also consider when working out the cuts that it's best if a mould can do another 20+
casts before it burns out. This way we can spend more time casting before a mould needs replacing. KS backers prefer to get their stuff as soon as they can, and maximising our production methods helps with this, though resin casting remains the slower production method out of resin, plastic and metal - but the best in terms of detail.

Most of the time a resin caster won't even be involved in the parts process (most of them act as 3rd parties) so you will often find that they start swearing when they get the sculpted parts in a bag (I've seen this happen, I know a few of these guys ) and accept that their moulds will burn out sooner leading to more work for them and likely a higher cost for the casts as there will be an increase in the moulding cost. The more pro-active ones will soon ask to be involved once the sculpt is finished so they can have some extra cuts added where they like them and thus their moulds last longer (and they can spend more time working for others) . This is where we have a nice benefit having the guy that makes the moulds also being the guy that handles the sculptors. I'll often discuss any potential niggles with a sculptor upfront and can explain some whys and wherefores. I also ask to be involve in the final stage with our 3rd party casting service we provide for others - it's better for all.



You have to bear in mind that a lot of sculptors are still used to making cuts for metal casting (less parts needed if the cast is mainly on a x,y axis such as the old GW metals) with resin casting, though it handles undercuts much better it will often benefit from things like weapon arms/weapons being separated. (you can usually leave these on with metal as the centrifugal force will take care of it) or if you plan a sculpt from the concept stage to be cast in resin you can have fewer parts - most of our infantry unit models for example such as the Duguth and the Drune Axemen have very few parts - as we know people will be assembling a load of these. Savrar characters? We didn't consider that people would want to use 10 or so of them (caring less about other game systems) so we went for more parts. The moulds lasted longer and we shipped them quicker. Took longer to assemble but most people only ordered one of each.

Also a noticeable 'fit' issue can be down to how a mini was cut. Slicing with a sharp scalpel/Xacto is possible with some materials (though the armature will need sawing) such as baked Fimo - but some tougher materials or alrger, more complicated cuts need to be cut with a fine jeweller's saw. The saw will naturally remove the same thickness of material as the width of the saw blade (less than a mm) so a mini that has been 'sawed' will have a small part of the sculpt missing (it turns into sawdust!) where a sliced cut just parts the mini aside. A sculptor will rework the mini, but a 100% replacement fit is difficult.


On rare occasions I'll make some additional cuts to a resin master, this easier than working on the sculpt itself as I can slice hot resin and don't saw. Though this is in single digit numbers across our range and we've never had an issue with any of those to my knowledge (and I read all of our @parts emails) . Now Aragorn Marks is available again (and local) I will sometimes visit him with any pieces we need altered. He's chopped a few guys up before now.

The Sea Devil was by Stephane N'guyen - I would say that he and Aragorn Marks are the best guys at junction work that we work with. Everyone is different though.

Right - these Proteanc wings moulds won't cut themselves you know (plus in final planning for the surprise pet project of mine)- best dash off and get them sorted!

Cheers

Tim

Edit

I said it when they were released, but I'll say it again- the CG printed Khthon were some of the smoothest to put together. Pegs all went exactly where they were supposed to, and were just the right size. I didn't have to file and fiddle with them.

This is where 3d has a massive benefit - the parting is exact (when done by a good 3d guy such as Olivier or Hector) - pure precision. Though I feel that traditional methods still retain more character.

bananaman wrote:
The cuts/pegs or 'junctions' are always carried out by the sculptor(s). Where they make the cuts is at my request, though most of our sculptors know by now where we'll require them. Though we'll often discuss cuts before sculpting in many cases, particularly on more complex minis. If you have some assembly pegs that look a little different on two or more sculpts by the same sculptor - that's down to how the sculptor felt like sculpting them that day.

The savrar are complex, sure, but I'm not sure that a really ace resin caster couldn't have done them in significantly less pieces

Sometimes we'll have a sculpt in more pieces - not because it can't be cast like that - but because the moulds would last longer if there's more pieces. The Savrar for example could all have their lower jaws on the head - but the moulds would tear much sooner (a lot of the spikes on the Savrar will scratch the inside of the mould leaving scrapes on future casts) . We are 'really ace resin casters' btw and it's not a matter of 'being really ace' (or not) in this case (we can cast pretty much anything without a single cut made to the sculpt, though you might only get single digit casts from that mould) - it's down to maximising production. We also consider when working out the cuts that it's best if a mould can do another 20+ casts before it burns out. This way we can spend more time casting before a mould needs replacing. KS backers prefer to get their stuff as soon as they can, and maximising our production methods helps with this, though resin casting remains the slower production method out of resin, plastic and metal - but the best in terms of detail.

Most of the time a resin caster won't even be involved in the parts process (most of them act as 3rd parties) so you will often find that they start swearing when they get the sculpted parts in a bag (I've seen this happen, I know a few of these guys ) and accept that their moulds will burn out sooner leading to more work for them and likely a higher cost for the casts as there will be an increase in the moulding cost. The more pro-active ones will soon ask to be involved once the sculpt is finished so they can have some extra cuts added where they like them and thus their moulds last longer (and they can spend more time working for others) . This is where we have a nice benefit having the guy that makes the moulds also being the guy that handles the sculptors. I'll often discuss any potential niggles with a sculptor upfront and can explain some whys and wherefores. I also ask to be involve in the final stage with our 3rd party casting service we provide for others - it's better for all.

This is again very helpful, and I appreciate your taking the time out to answer my questions!

However, in your second sentence above, you mention that where the cuts are made is at your request, and later you explain that a major motivator for this is to maximize production.

Personally, when buying a resin mini, my higher priority (by far) is the quality of the model, rather than production time... I think that that is the case for many people who are after fine resin minis, even if they've caught the Kickstarter craze . My impression was indeed that the savrar were chopped up into more pieces than necessary - the arms are the ones that were the most noticeable, with several having upper arm, lower arm, and separate weapon . The head of one of the savrar, while awesome, came in 4 separate pieces (upper jaw, left frill, right frill, lower jaw on the main body).

So, my (hopefully constructive!) feedback, would be to emphasize final product over production time. You continue to choose incredible sculptors, and I've gotten tons of compliments on these sculpts, I just want the choices made on cutting up and producing the models to be in line with the sculptors - that of a premium product, rather than one that is faster/easier to produce.

Once again, thanks for coming on and reading the feedback on here

that of a premium product, rather than one that is faster/easier to produce.

To be fair some of the Savrar pieces could have been in less pieces - Eikovra's cheek frills shouldn't have been separate - I Just took a look at the cuts info and they weren't meant to be like that, sometimes a sculptor might make a cut he thinks necc though as he has the sculpt in hand in 3d form rather than a 2d photo that we have to work from (also we speak a different language to the majority of our sculptors and some errors have been made before now due to the language barrier) - though an open mouthed jaw (with any sort of interior to the mouth and teeth) should always be separated into upper and lower jaws - there's a balance to be had - a scratched mould makes for terrible quality all round. And if you need to remould too soon, people have to wait longer.

Though I do feel that your experience with the Savrar would be less frustrating had you only had to assemble one of each (but good on you for ordering loads of them! We remember your order along with comments of 'this guy's a nutter!' ) - we never intended for people to assemble many of these guys (multiples of the same task tends to be more work after all!) . We make minis in as few components as possible whilst retaining quality and lifespan of a mould - especially with rank and file. Some of our minis of course, are one complete cast, we don't part for the sake of it. (it is more work in other areas, more time making a mould and more moulds vs a longer lifespan, there's a tightrope to walk)

By and large the Savrar are the exception that proves the rule- especially with man-sized (ish) figures. Some of our most exquisite foot figures are typically 3-5 components , I have Knutr on my desk right now, an awesome mini - 5 parts, one of them is his optional beer stein - that's less than some GW plastic rank and file minis. And he's as highly detailed and exquisite as they come. Sathach is 3 pieces.

I think the Savrar issue clouds your view a little. Look at the range as a whole - the Savrar are 3 minis of over 100 human sized 30mm minis. They aren't indicative of our range as a whole and have separate issues related to them (curved tails, spikes/frills, open jaws) . But they are first and foremost character models meant for single use, not repetitive rank and file. Take away the Savrar - & is there an issue with the minis being in too many parts compared to similar minis of their type? I would say no.

At the end of the day - we do know what we're doing and are highly experienced at resin production. We make tens of thousands of resin casts per year. We don't tend to invent cuts for the sake of it (just yesterday I persuaded a sculptor to keep the ears on a monster model as he thought they needed to be removed) though I would agree with you that the Savrar are a tricky bunch but not the range as a whole. Next time I work on their moulds I'll look at reducing the amount of parts to the Savrar and look at the assembly pegs.

Thanks for the feedback - see, we bear it in mind! :0)

Great in depth response, thanks Tim!

Most of the time a resin caster won't even be involved in the parts process (most of them act as 3rd parties) so you will often find that they start swearing when they get the sculpted parts in a bag (I've seen this happen, I know a few of these guys ) and accept that their moulds will burn out sooner leading to more work for them and likely a higher cost for the casts as there will be an increase in the moulding cost.

That matches my experiences as a caster pretty much exactly.

I do agree with RiTides a bit, but short putting some parts back together before molding there isn't a lot you can do once they are in hand. Then again, I have done that myself, so maybe it is something to think about for the future?

Thanks again for the insight into the process, it is always exciting to see how things get made! (Or told about it in some detail )